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The Future of PVE
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Darth Tickles
Doomheim
#41 - 2012-05-28 22:41:04 UTC
Aruken Marr wrote:
I think the issue was with the whole skewed risk vs reward thing. The fact that people were running hisec alts for incursions to earn isk for pvp out in null was a bit of an issue. Nothing wrong with incursions its just their payout was way too high for hisec when compared to the income out in null.


Yes. They implemented it without thinking, and then had to rush-nerf it without thinking. However, it remains a move in the right direction, and hopefully they spend the time and effort to implement it properly.
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#42 - 2012-05-28 22:42:53 UTC
PvE in EVE is nothing more than a scantily clad ISK faucet. It's sole purpose is to provide players with money to fund their PvP exploits. That's why it is repetitive and progression in it is simple. You go from level 1's to either 4's or 5's, from there to Wormholes and Sleepers and then in to PvP Combat. Making PvE anything other than the way it is would be a disaster.

Why do you think websites like EVE-Survival exist? Because people for the most part don't want to spend hours and hours everyday being forced to guess their way through ****** missions to earn the ISK to buy the ships and ammo so that they can go kill real people. They want it over and done with as quickly as possible so that they can enjoy the real fun of the game. The sooner people realise that, the better.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Aruken Marr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2012-05-28 23:00:51 UTC
Rico Minali wrote:
Gul'gotha Derv'ash wrote:
Basically the future for PvE is bleak. Why? The CSM is controlled by the PvP players that have been pushing their own agenda for years. They don't like having to leave the security of their Sov to rat or run missions so they ***** and moan to get more and more taken from high and put into null sec.

There in lies the biggest problem though. There is supposed to be a risk vs reward system in place. You risk being attacked at any moment in low/null sec so your reward should be high, right? Well in my experience the Sov space of alliances is MUCH safer than high sec. You run little to no risk of being killed by another player. If for some reason you do have someone that isn't friendly pop into your system you knew he was coming 10 minutes before from intel channels.

Most people will try to say that it takes a lot of effort to keep a sov system safe, but that is incorrect. It takes a lot of people in an alliance to keep Sov safe. If you have numbers, and can field a fleet you will rarely if ever find yourself needing to do so to defend your space.


The risk needs put back into Null to justify the rewards, i.e. remove local from null and leave it in low/high. Remove gate fire so you can't see when someone pops into your gate camps, etc, etc. That would be a step in the right direction.




edit: and this ISN"T a PvP game. This is a sandbox. It is designed to let people decide for themselves what they want to do inside the box. CCP has been moving farther and farther away from the true sandbox aspect and listened too much to what the CSM says. That is why you see a constant push for people to PvP and why CCP is moving the entire game in that direction, and has been for some time.


No idea where you got your knowledge about nullsec and sov gameplay but I must say, I have never heard such a complete load of utter stupidity in all my time in Eve.


My god how did I miss that gem of a post. Guy needs a clue.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#44 - 2012-05-28 23:10:53 UTC
Vicky Somers wrote:
First of all I would like to point out that there is no PVE in Eve. At least there is no PVE that doesn't involve PVP. Everything you do will to some degree be affected by other players. Those who do not understand this tend to receive a rather unpleasant surprise from time to time, be it a nasty suicide gank, a war dec, scam, or some form of harassment. And that is exactly what makes Eve so unique. No instanced content. Just a single shard, sandbox.

About 95% of my time in Eve is spent on exploration. I'm not a role playing type of person but I have since childhood had a fascination with space. That's the reason why I play Eve. I don't really care for playing with others, but one of the main reasons why I play Eve is the constant threatening presence of people. It gives New Eden a faint, dark & dystopian pulse. Something you can't get from NPCs. It needs real human beings and all their potential evil.

Now, the main issue with PVE for me is reward. I don't really care that much about isk, or finding some rare spawn that will reward me with even more isk. I want PVE to reward me with story and lore. And in this regard Eve has a lot of room for improvement. Obviously, there's a lot of people who don't care about story & lore and just want to pew or mine or whatever. That's good for them and so story should not be forced on them. Those who do have interest in the story on the other hand, should be rewarded with it through PVE which as far as I'm concerned is mainly exploration. Agent missions have too much in common with tripe like WoW fetch quests and the like. This doesn't fit in the Eve universe.

You could argue that story & lore in Eve comes from the player driven politics. But let us be honest here. I do not care for the antics of autistic neckbeards with attention issues who have too much time on their hands. And I doubt that anyone outside of a select few cares about what happens in the political side of null. But that doesn't mean that story & lore cannot be in some way player drive. Eve has fanfiction featured on their website. Why not find a way to incorporate parts of those stories & shorts into the game itself? When I run into some rare NPC and kill it, I want to find documents, secrets, history, etc.

The story of Eve has so far evolved extremely slowly. Despite the good books that have been written, little to no lore & story advancement has took place within the game itself. Apocrpypha was a step in the right direction, but was rather underwhelming in my opinion. Sleeper sites had too much in common with L4 missions and gave very little background information, history, lore and so on.

TL/DR: let PVE rewards focus with more on story & lore and less on fetch style wow quests and isk farming


I actually like the idea of PVE having more content. Not in terms of ISK or loot or anything in that vein. The Damsel in Distress again and again. Who is she? Where did she come from? How the hell did she get mixed up with this lot? Instead you get a few paragraphs that amount to go do stuff and come back. It's like MafiaWars on Facebook - how many times am I going to click, "Do this job again" until I feel like a trained monkey?

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#45 - 2012-05-28 23:27:25 UTC
Knot'Kul Sun wrote:
if you want people to get involved into PVP more, first get them involved with other people.

Make Missions so ungodly hard for the same level of reward, (sans maybe L1 and L2) that people have no choice but to gang together and socialize, therefor increasing the likelyhood they will see PVP rather than sitting in an NPC corp or farming millions in L4's solo.


+1

I like this idea. So much in 0.5+ is solo. Encouraging people to socialize is a plus period. Speaking from a WoW perspective you grab some friends and do instances or you resign yourself to 2 year old content that sucks.

In EvE you get the same old solo content that is more than 2 years old and perish the thought of reaching out to fellow capsuleers to meet, socialize, and succeed with.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2012-05-28 23:50:58 UTC  |  Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
...so that they can enjoy the real fun of the game. The sooner people realise that, the better.

The sooner you realize that what you consider fun isn't necesarily what everyone else considers fun and that your fun isn't the only "real" fun, the better.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
Bunnie Hop
Bunny Knights
#47 - 2012-05-29 06:59:25 UTC
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
PvE in EVE is nothing more than a scantily clad ISK faucet. It's sole purpose is to provide players with money to fund their PvP exploits. That's why it is repetitive and progression in it is simple. You go from level 1's to either 4's or 5's, from there to Wormholes and Sleepers and then in to PvP Combat. Making PvE anything other than the way it is would be a disaster.

Why do you think websites like EVE-Survival exist? Because people for the most part don't want to spend hours and hours everyday being forced to guess their way through ****** missions to earn the ISK to buy the ships and ammo so that they can go kill real people. They want it over and done with as quickly as possible so that they can enjoy the real fun of the game. The sooner people realise that, the better.


Again you are forcing a subjective view upon others. You clearly don't like the PVE aspect of the game and that is fine, you don't need to like it. Others do and want to have it made even more enjoyable or at least know the direction CCP plans to take it. If it is going to be dumbed down further to make it merely a stepping stone into PVP so be it, just let us know so we can make an informed decision as to continue playing or not. A blue response would sure go a long way towards this.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#48 - 2012-05-29 07:20:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Bunnie Hop wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
EVE is a PVP game, not Minecraft single player on easy mode in space. The PVP should, and always will, take priority with the PVE content being supplemental. And lets face it, if you play EVE solely for its PVE content then you really should go find another game to play, because PVE in EVE has always been a bit sucky. I should also say that I am a Carebear who has in the past been a pvp'er and is now trying to get back in to it, mostly because I realised that PVE is a waste of £10 a month.


I rather enjoy the PVE aspect as do my friends so for me it isn't a waste of money. Telling someone they should go to another game is really stupid. I have played for years and find it enjoyable. How does the existence of PVE content hurt the PVP content by the way?


Well, in ever other game including other sandbox PvP MMOs people ask for weak features to be improved.

But no, if EvE PvE is shallow and outdated, the players won't ask for PvE to be improved but for you to change game, change playstyle, or - the favourite - go to 0.0 pretending you like it and go serve under a moon goo baron.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Ludi Burek
The Player Haters Corp
#49 - 2012-05-29 08:09:55 UTC
PVE does need a boost in interest that's for sure but more grinding and mindless blitzing is not the answer. As it stands now all forms of PVE are viewed by many players as a necessary grind to get isk.

I hope someone at ccp comes up with a good way to make it actually interesting and with variable predictability. Do this after that and then proceed here etc... is terrible gameplay.
Herold Oldtimer
State War Academy
Caldari State
#50 - 2012-05-29 10:14:20 UTC
They removed drone alloys, that is a pretty big chunk of gun mining gone right there. That said I wouldn't mind seeing a slight overhaul on the missions aswell, and have for a long time been in favor of introducing sleeper ai into missions. Don't need any bigger reward, just want a greater challenge.
Bunnie Hop
Bunny Knights
#51 - 2012-05-29 10:21:28 UTC
Herold Oldtimer wrote:
They removed drone alloys, that is a pretty big chunk of gun mining gone right there. That said I wouldn't mind seeing a slight overhaul on the missions aswell, and have for a long time been in favor of introducing sleeper ai into missions. Don't need any bigger reward, just want a greater challenge.


Yes a greater challenge and also more storyline as others have suggested would be great. I am not looking for greater rewards but am getting a sense that the rewards are going to be reduced greatly in attempts to push people into pvp. That is an inference at any rate drawn from statements made at FanFest during a presentation. Far too many vague statements from CCP, they need to commit to a course of action and let their players know what it will be.
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#52 - 2012-05-29 10:45:25 UTC
In other MMORPGs PvE continually gets expanded on and you get on a treadmill in which you grind for gear -> complete new content -> grind for more gear -> do new dungeons until you reach the end.

This is pretty much the opposite of the design philosophy of EVE, in which players choose what they want to do instead of being put on a strict path with restrictions to where they can go and what they can do. Another problem is the combat mechanics of EVE compared to other games. EVE is about planning your ship and fleet ahead of time instead of pushing buttons in reaction to what is happening, therefore once you can tank X amount of damage and put out Y DPS, PvE is hideously boring, see Incursions.

PvE in EVE has been continually expanded upon whatever you might think, but instead of getting bigger missions with more rewards, you will get different ways and methods of PvE with around the same rewards as level 4 missions. Level 4 missions, by the way, are long overdue for a nerf in isk/items generation. You shouldn't be able to run missions for a few months and afford an officer fit golem and you shouldn't be able to finance 0.0 activities by running a mission every few days. The shiniest stuff should be in the deepest, most dangerous part of the dungeon and I can't wait for that to happen.
Degren
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2012-05-29 10:48:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Degren
The "CSM PvPers" recognize that PvE is ******* terrible in this game.

That's partly why they (and so many others) try to avoid it. Of course efforts are being made to promote it without wrecking the economy.

No one wants to ******* grind when we can just blow someone up and take their ****...but when there is no one around to blow up, it'd be nice to have some enjoyable content to fall back on.

Edit: I take that back, a **** ton of you want to ******* grind instead of blowing others up. Grindy grind grind.

Hello, hello again.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2012-05-29 10:57:20 UTC
it doesn't matter what PvP kiddos cry but PVE won't go anywhere from Eve Online. Core difference between PvP and PVE is: ISK generation. (I don't speak about ship insurance here because at some point Insurance system will move under player control).

Eve Online is a big ISK sink in whole. So it needs ISK faucets. Unless CCP starts to pay for killing people (PvP) there will be NPC and missions to fill universe by ISK.

This fact leads to PVE future: PVE will be nerfed/forgotten until inflation is over. And if(when) there will be lack of ISK in game PVE will be improved. And new adjustments... And new adjustments....

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Lady Aja
#55 - 2012-05-29 11:10:17 UTC
very least all missiosn NEED to stop payign out bounties.

raise the lp one gets from missiosn and sell your faction items from the lp store to other players.

imo best way would to make ALL high sec missions be anti faction
bounties belong in low sec and null sec onl, including secruity gains..

dont liek it stfu
where is my ability to link a sig properly CCP you munters!!
Arkon Olacar
black.listed
#56 - 2012-05-29 11:17:56 UTC
Knot'Kul Sun wrote:
Take away Mission names, redo the entire set of missions so that its a randomly generated field/complex/grid with 1-5 gates, even race of enemies are randomized, the Lvl will determine the size and frequency of evil peeps.

Yes and no. Random missions, with random rats spawned (within guidelines) sounds good. Race of enemies - no. That just screws over everyone using hardeners, and it will simply irritate people for zero benefit.

Knot'Kul Sun wrote:

Make Missions so ungodly hard for the same level of reward, (sans maybe L1 and L2) that people have no choice but to gang together and socialize, therefor increasing the likelyhood they will see PVP rather than sitting in an NPC corp or farming millions in L4's solo.

No. You have basically just said you want incursions for level fours, for level four rewards. Go biomass yourself, thats a terribad idea. Can you imagine what it would be like, incursion fleets on level four income? Horrendous hours of grinding, just for a new t1 battlecruiser every few days? Just no.

In terms of the current level of reward and the current ships that can run level fours, nothing needs changing - apart from a drake tank nerf, no one should be able to run them solo in a t1 battlecruiser. As it currently stands, you can grind your way solo through level fours, but it is time consuming and often requires agro management to stop your tank from being overwhelmed. Or you can get in groups of half a dozen or so, and roflstomp your way through missions without breaking a sweat, and so greatly increase your isk/hour.

Oh, and for all those who want mission rats to have sleeper AI - if you want to fight sleeper AI, go fight sleepers. Simple really.
Arkon Olacar
black.listed
#57 - 2012-05-29 11:18:48 UTC
Lady Aja wrote:
very least all missiosn NEED to stop payign out bounties.

raise the lp one gets from missiosn and sell your faction items from the lp store to other players.

imo best way would to make ALL high sec missions be anti faction
bounties belong in low sec and null sec onl, including secruity gains..

dont liek it stfu

Go redo economics 101.
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#58 - 2012-05-29 12:06:48 UTC
Bunnie Hop wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
PvE in EVE is nothing more than a scantily clad ISK faucet. It's sole purpose is to provide players with money to fund their PvP exploits. That's why it is repetitive and progression in it is simple. You go from level 1's to either 4's or 5's, from there to Wormholes and Sleepers and then in to PvP Combat. Making PvE anything other than the way it is would be a disaster.

Why do you think websites like EVE-Survival exist? Because people for the most part don't want to spend hours and hours everyday being forced to guess their way through ****** missions to earn the ISK to buy the ships and ammo so that they can go kill real people. They want it over and done with as quickly as possible so that they can enjoy the real fun of the game. The sooner people realise that, the better.


Again you are forcing a subjective view upon others. You clearly don't like the PVE aspect of the game and that is fine, you don't need to like it. Others do and want to have it made even more enjoyable or at least know the direction CCP plans to take it. If it is going to be dumbed down further to make it merely a stepping stone into PVP so be it, just let us know so we can make an informed decision as to continue playing or not. A blue response would sure go a long way towards this.



And you, quite clearly, do not know how to read. The fact that PVE in EVE is nothing more than a glorified ISK faucet is not a subjective view, it is a plain and simple fact. The reason for its existence is as I stated, and not a subjective view point. Those two facts combined mean that PVE in EVE will always come second to PVP, it will always be fairly dull and considered a grind fest by most and is unlikely to ever attain the level of complexity that you appear to desire.

Missions will almost certainly remain simple and easily completed entirely because of their function in the game, which is to provide a relatively simple way to earn money. If that fact has escaped you for this long then I think you already have your answer.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Bunnie Hop
Bunny Knights
#59 - 2012-05-29 12:17:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Bunnie Hop
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
Bunnie Hop wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
PvE in EVE is nothing more than a scantily clad ISK faucet. It's sole purpose is to provide players with money to fund their PvP exploits. That's why it is repetitive and progression in it is simple. You go from level 1's to either 4's or 5's, from there to Wormholes and Sleepers and then in to PvP Combat. Making PvE anything other than the way it is would be a disaster.

Why do you think websites like EVE-Survival exist? Because people for the most part don't want to spend hours and hours everyday being forced to guess their way through ****** missions to earn the ISK to buy the ships and ammo so that they can go kill real people. They want it over and done with as quickly as possible so that they can enjoy the real fun of the game. The sooner people realise that, the better.


Again you are forcing a subjective view upon others. You clearly don't like the PVE aspect of the game and that is fine, you don't need to like it. Others do and want to have it made even more enjoyable or at least know the direction CCP plans to take it. If it is going to be dumbed down further to make it merely a stepping stone into PVP so be it, just let us know so we can make an informed decision as to continue playing or not. A blue response would sure go a long way towards this.



And you, quite clearly, do not know how to read. The fact that PVE in EVE is nothing more than a glorified ISK faucet is not a subjective view, it is a plain and simple fact. The reason for its existence is as I stated, and not a subjective view point. Those two facts combined mean that PVE in EVE will always come second to PVP, it will always be fairly dull and considered a grind fest by most and is unlikely to ever attain the level of complexity that you appear to desire.

Missions will almost certainly remain simple and easily completed entirely because of their function in the game, which is to provide a relatively simple way to earn money. If that fact has escaped you for this long then I think you already have your answer.


I was being diplomatic and patient with you but you just enjoy being argumentative. This thread was asking for clarification on what CCP implied at FanFest, not for a bubblehead like you to argue the old pvp vs pve debate as a game mechanic. I had previously wished you well, now I wish you gone as you have no answers and just want to be a douche.
Bellista
JUST SET TIMES
#60 - 2012-05-29 12:29:30 UTC
Lady Aja wrote:
very least all missiosn NEED to stop payign out bounties.

raise the lp one gets from missiosn and sell your faction items from the lp store to other players.

imo best way would to make ALL high sec missions be anti faction
bounties belong in low sec and null sec onl, including secruity gains..

dont liek it stfu

Wrong. Ty.