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A Plea for Rationale in the System of Natural Consequences

Author
Ludi Burek
Exit-Strategy
Unchained Alliance
#121 - 2012-05-28 01:58:07 UTC
How is that these "casuals" don't seem to get that their subscription is just a convenient cash grab by ccp. They don't matter as they come and go all the time. Thanks for injecting cash into ccp's wallet so they can keep developing the game for those that get it.
Aruken Marr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#122 - 2012-05-28 01:58:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Aruken Marr
Oddball Six wrote:


Which are clearly effective [/sarcasm].

I think that's the problem, none of these are particularly effective in a high sec zone. Particularly when these individuals are able to dock at stations, etc, as if nothing had happened.


You give em an inch and they take a ******* mile.

Insurance payouts were recently taken away for losses caused by concord. That change made a lot of sense and forced gankers to make things a little more cost effective.

So you want to take more? Why not just request the removal of non-consensual pvp from hisec seeing as thats what youll be asking for 3 months after they introduced said fines...

...and another thing; there's nothing more vile being spilled out by you lot than the claim that you should be allowed to mine in peace because after all this is a sandbox game and youre free to do whatever you like. God forbid anyone trying to stop you because as we all know its a sandbox game...
Welsige
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#123 - 2012-05-28 01:59:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Welsige
Tallon Sylph wrote:
ShipToaster wrote:
Sandbox.




High sec dosent means safety.

High sec is that place you spawn and after you see how sh*t it is you move along to other endeavours, where your security is provided by other fellow and known players, not some dummy npc's.

[b]~ 10.058 ~

Free The Mittani[/b]

Mercy Kills
Reapers...
#124 - 2012-05-28 02:07:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Mercy Kills
Kaeda Maxwell wrote:
Hello Oddball,

......[omitted for character limit -Mercy]

Lets move on to the matter at hand shall we, your Hulk and pod that so unfortunately (for you) died due to my actions in Bahromab, which you seem to think is some random act of griefing. Since arguing opinions would be a futile exercise I shall instead share with you the work that went into accomplishing your virtual demise in this instance. And some views on EVE as a game.

As you may or may not have noticed I'm -10.0 which means operating in hisec takes some doing, so lets start with that.
In order to find targets I use an alt, unlike most gankers my alt isn't exactly inconspicuous had you paid attention to local in Bahromab you would have noticed Kohana Maxwell. She was around for quite a while as you switched belts several times before you finally (almost) stayed put. Had you paid any attention to your directional scanner you would have also noticed combat probes following you around from belt to belt. Anyway I digress.
Once I seized you up to be a viable target I undocked from Youl station, which is in hisec (0.8), and warped to an undock bookmark I had made earlier using said alt. Then I proceed to head over to Bahromab which is a 7 jump journey since I have to avoid the busy system of Madirmilire which often has suicide gankers of a different brand present who would happily explode my flashy red catalyst upon entering the system. Regardless that is 7 jumps on which any alert players can end my endeavour there and then.
Eventually I arrived in Kudi, one jump away from you, sadly for me you at this point decided to switch belts again so I spend the next 3 or 4 minutes bouncing between celestials in Kudi with the Amarr Navy in hot pursuit. Meanwhile waiting for you to pick a new belt (Planet 5 Belt 1 if I recall correctly) and dual boxing keeping Kaeda alive and moving and relocating probes on Kohana to get a decent warp in.
When this finally happened I came into system had Kohana squad warp Kaeda on top of you and exploded your hulk and indeed you pod. Which turned out to be quite the rewarding killmail indeed.

Afterwards I salvaged the wreck and looted I think a single T2 stripminer the result of which only just about covered the cost of my T2 fitted catalyst. Which hadn't it been for the well nice pod mail would have made me consider it a mediocre gank, I like to actually run a profit on them.
You see and this is where we differ in opinion, what you call griefing isn't in fact griefing so much. I make decent ISK ganking miners I wrote a lengthy blog on it here. Yes obviously Hulkageddon provides added value (for me), I'll even admit I would have done other things in May in EVE had it not been Hulkageddon. I don't even do it for the tears which I also wrote a lengthy blog about actually. But that said a competition to liven things up a little, plus chatting with other gankers and all in all Hulkageddon is quite the worthwhile content to me. And Helicity is a star for putting in the time to organize and administer it all if you ask me.

Anyway Oddball, I don't think we are very likely to ever agree on what comprises 'fun gameplay', but I would like to point out that when you come to a sandbox game you might want to keep in mind that what you consider 'fun' or 'worthwhile' might not even be recognizable as such by somebody else in the same sandbox. You may think of me as some random griefer, while in fact I'm having a lot of fun working around the fact I'm -10.0 and attempting to make a profit ganking miners in hisec despite it (and succeeding).
You don't however see me going onto the forums and writing some wall of text quoting the EULA to try and get CCP to remove mining from the sandbox because I don't consider it fun or entertaining, I'd appreciate it if you'd at least consider providing us 'griefers' the same courtesy. At the end of the day EVE is a a sandbox and a PvP game that you and I both willingly subscribe too and I may assume (I hope) while being aware of both these things.
Yet here you are pleading to CCP to invalidate a gameplay style you don't agree with for mostly no other reason then that it interferes with your own.
Nothing is stopping you from interfering with my playstyle for the record, and I mean in game within EVE's existing framework and rules (instead of by trying to get CCP to change the rules). Such is the very nature and beauty of EVE.

I look forward to your cunning ingame revenge. I promise not to post a lengthy post on the forums begging CCP's aide when it happens.

Peace,

Kaeda out.

p.s. After the 29th I'll be out in lowsec and null again you'll be pleased to learn, contrary to popular myth being a ganker and a pvp'er aren't mutually exclusive.


And this...this right here is just one example of why I love this game and always come back. Just the amount of strategy, tactics, and subterfuge that went into the destruction of ONE ship, you multiply it by a couple of thousand and you only just begin to get the larger picture of why this game is like no other and it's fanbase, while small, is strongly devoted. Plus we're collectively smarter than other communities, too. ;)

Thanks for sharing your story, Kaeda.

-Mercy
James 315
Experimental Fun Times Corp RELOADED
CODE.
#125 - 2012-05-28 02:07:46 UTC
Kaeda Maxwell wrote:
(words)

Well said. What you described is emergent gameplay at its finest, overcoming obstacles by using skill and creativity, in order to carry out a goal. And the OP thinks this should be against the EULA.

I wish people like the OP would take this into consideration. Should players like Kaeda Maxwell be banned for playing EVE to the fullest, all so highsec miners can grab a coffee and be guaranteed to find their ship still intact when they return?

These are the two visions of EVE's future, and there cannot be any compromise. Either the OP's fail-fit hulk is invincible, or it is not.
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#126 - 2012-05-28 02:09:00 UTC
Serene Repose wrote:
Only one reason why so-called "pirates" would want to "ply their trade" in high sec - it's EASY.


Because you make it easy.

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#127 - 2012-05-28 02:09:57 UTC
Welsige wrote:
High sec dosent means safety.

High sec is that place you spawn and after you see how sh*t it is you move along to other endeavours, where your security is provided by other fellow and known players, not some dummy npc's.

What, really.

Don't most just stay in highsec for their endeavors?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Aruken Marr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#128 - 2012-05-28 02:14:57 UTC
Welsige wrote:


where your security is provided by other fellow and known players


That doesnt sound like deklein
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
#129 - 2012-05-28 02:18:00 UTC
Aruken Marr wrote:
So you want to take more? Why not just request the removal of non-consensual pvp from hisec seeing as thats what youll be asking for 3 months after they introduced said fines...

They've been doing this for over half a decade.

And slowly getting there.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#130 - 2012-05-28 02:21:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Aruken Marr wrote:
So you want to take more? Why not just request the removal of non-consensual pvp from hisec seeing as thats what youll be asking for 3 months after they introduced said fines...

They've been doing this for over half a decade.

And slowly getting there.

You have to do it incrementally. A small "adjustment" here, some "tweaking" there, a midge of "compromise".

And then you reach the magic button and slam it with the force of three strip miners hitting a veldspar rock.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#131 - 2012-05-28 02:27:19 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
I have no KM to go on so I will assume you failed to tank your ship while mining when a very well known event was going on. Welcome to EVE, a PVP game full of nasty pirates and terrorists who love people who fail to protect themselves in even the most basic way.

Best you get used to EVE as it is not advertised as a dark and hostile game for nothing.


Boilerplate Goon lying.

Hulk's cannot be tanked in any reasonable way.

Fly covetors not hulks.
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#132 - 2012-05-28 02:29:04 UTC
Aruken Marr wrote:
Oddball Six wrote:


Which are clearly effective [/sarcasm].

I think that's the problem, none of these are particularly effective in a high sec zone. Particularly when these individuals are able to dock at stations, etc, as if nothing had happened.


You give em an inch and they take a ******* mile.

Insurance payouts were recently taken away for losses caused by concord. That change made a lot of sense and forced gankers to make things a little more cost effective.

So you want to take more? Why not just request the removal of non-consensual pvp from hisec seeing as thats what youll be asking for 3 months after they introduced said fines...

...and another thing; there's nothing more vile being spilled out by you lot than the claim that you should be allowed to mine in peace because after all this is a sandbox game and youre free to do whatever you like. God forbid anyone trying to stop you because as we all know its a sandbox game...


Why don't we take your CYNO blankie and your Local blankie away?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#133 - 2012-05-28 02:30:50 UTC
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:


Boilerplate Goon lying.

Hulk's cannot be tanked in any reasonable way.

Fly covetors not hulks.


A hulk will tank a pair of alpha maelstroms easily.
Cyprus Black
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#134 - 2012-05-28 02:31:25 UTC
Oddball Six wrote:

A Simple Response

I would suggest the response is simple and two pronged.


  1. Concord notices the drop in the markets and in order to ensure the supposed stability of the universe, have placed a couple of concord ships resident in high sec asteroid belts only in addition to their current locations.

  2. CCP begins warning and taking action against blatant high sec offenders.


Anecdotal evidence has already started to surface of player discontent with allowing these actions to remain unpunished and indeed unrestrained. I question how long CCP will wait to allow bands of players to flagrantly collude to ignore intended game mechanics and deny greater segments of the player base the enjoyment of the chosen virtual profession that keeps the real-life game revenue coming in.

There are some obvious and glaring problems with your "Simple Response" propositions.

1) It doesn't matter how many Concord ships are present. One or a million ships makes little to no difference due to a thing called Alpha Strike Damage. Basically highsec gankers fit their ships to do maximum amount of damage in one or two volleys. Concord cannot predict the future and cannot preemptively strike down gankers. They can only take action against gankers AFTER they've engaged in the deed. The ganker is guaranteed to get in at least one volley on the victim and often that's enough to get a kill.

2) EvE Online just turned nine years old. It's been a LONG standing policy that ganking in highsec is an allowable practice. Reversing that decision would take a massive amount of effort on CCPs part, both in getting the word out that the practice is no longer allowed and actually policing the new ruling.

A far more elegant and functional solution is to change the stats on the exumers or and/or boost their survivability.

Summary of EvEs last four expansions: http://imgur.com/ZL5SM33

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#135 - 2012-05-28 02:35:24 UTC
Cyprus Black wrote:


A far more elegant and functional solution is to change the stats on the exumers or and/or boost their survivability.


Not needed. The hulk can tank very well if people chose to. Even the mac can be fitted with a good tank.
Ituhata Saken
Killboard Padding Services
#136 - 2012-05-28 02:42:38 UTC
no hope for retriever pilots, huh?

So close...

Kaaeliaa
Tyrannos Sunset
#137 - 2012-05-28 02:43:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaaeliaa
James 315 wrote:
Oddball Six wrote:
The enemy?
Yes, "enemy." You are my enemy, and you are the enemy of all EVE whether you know it or not.

I wholeheartedly support the actions being taken against you, and I congratulate Kaeda Maxwell for destroying your mining vessel. I think Kaeda Maxwell deserves particular credit for killing your pod. Most highsec gankers are unable to kill the pods which, as we see in your case, often hold very valuable implants.

If you are genuinely interested in learning why you are the enemy, and why you need to cease your mining activity, I invite you to read this quick post I wrote on the topic, which explains everything.

Regardless, I wish you the best, unless you continue to mine in highsec in which case I wish you unending destruction (no offense). Smile


You should run for public office. Your long-windedness would be in demand.

Everyone claiming that EVE is a sandbox and that everyone should be able to do exactly what they want to do is missing an important part of CCPs vision. It's not just a sandbox, it's a sandbox with actions and consequences. You can do anything you want in real life, too. You're perfectly able to buy yourself a AR-15, walk into a library, and start putting rounds in people that don't want anything to do with you, and you can even steal from and eat their dead bodies. No place is truly safe. Do you think that you should be able to shoot people because they forgot to wear a bulletproof vest that day?

You bang on and on about the consequences of other people's choices and completely ignore your own, because you and the rest of the nulls are incapable of seeing past your own noses. I hope you and the Goons enjoy mining your own minerals and losing your Orcas and Exhumers. If you want to create an incentive for more people to live in nullsec/WH space, fine. Do it, and I'll look forward to it. If you want to harass and annihilate botters until CCP finally gets around to banning them, you'll hear no argument from me. Bots and RMT are a blight on the face of the green Earth and a festering pustule on the ass of our EVE.

I think your manifesto is a blatant troll, but on the off-chance you're actually serious, I just had to tell you how wrong you are. Large nullsec alliances have FAR more influence over the direction of this game than any other group has ever had, and that influence is degrading EVE at an alarming rate. In fact, your causality chain is completely backwards. The sociopathic actions of pirates, thieves, and scum is what continues to deter people without serious psychological problems from lowsec and nullsec. Facing a distinct lack of easy targets instead of other organized alliances, the powerful groups decided to impose their will on players that wanted nothing to do with them. Since CCP isn't a company of complete morons, they were forced to take action before they started losing subscriptions. If you want small scale PvP in nullsec back, then suggest ideas actually relevant to PvP, such as mechanics that make blobbing and hotdropping garbage less viable. Your immensely tedious whinging about players in highsec is no more or less valid or influential than the whining of highsec players that are getting caught in the crossfire of bored nullsec players disappointed with the situation in nullsec.

"Do not lift the veil. Do not show the door. Do not split the dream."

Mercy Kills
Reapers...
#138 - 2012-05-28 02:45:38 UTC
>.>

where this thread is going:

Nowhere
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#139 - 2012-05-28 02:49:24 UTC
Kaaeliaa wrote:


You should run for public office. Long-winded sociopaths are always in demand there.

Everyone claiming that EVE is a sandbox and that everyone should be able to do exactly what they want to do is missing an important part of CCPs vision. It's not just a sandbox, it's a sandbox with actions and consequences. You can do anything you want in real life, too. You're perfectly able to buy yourself a AR-15, walk into a library, and start putting rounds in people that don't want anything to do with you, and you can even steal from and eat their dead bodies. No place is truly safe. Do you think that you should be able to shoot people because they forgot to wear a bulletproof vest that day?.

Petition God about it.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#140 - 2012-05-28 02:52:07 UTC
Ituhata Saken wrote:
no hope for retriever pilots, huh?


Its possible to tank them against a destroyer.