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New Punisher and Merlin and their T2

Author
Kaikka Carel
Ziea
#1 - 2012-05-26 04:07:03 UTC
So these ships were drastically reworked but their T2 variants still have:

- Speed and inertia based on the older T1 variants. This results in T1 having better stats.
- Both Vengeance and Harpy have damage bonus tied to Assault Ships skill which is not always trained to V. Though it may be compensated by 3 turrets instead of 4 it's still weird.
- Capacitors. Merlins capacitor is superior to Harpy's. In case of Punisher it is somewhat balanced out by recharge times.

Still it looks like some of the developers downgraded the ships...

Should CCP buff respective AFs to the level of those frigates?
Ansel Mandisant
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2012-05-26 04:35:25 UTC
It seems really odd to me that CCP took the racial weapon for the Caldari away from their primary T1 knockaround frigate. In essence, it seems as though what they have done is given the Caldari what amounts to a blaster pvp platform. If they were going to change the way that the Merlin fights so dramattically, why not do it in a way that didn't remove the racial weapon component from the ship?What?
Hail Goddess
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2012-05-26 07:17:53 UTC
What really got screwed was combat intereceptors. Many of whom could be smashed by t1 frigates before, but now it's p sad.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#4 - 2012-05-26 13:35:14 UTC
Ansel Mandisant wrote:
It seems really odd to me that CCP took the racial weapon for the Caldari away from their primary T1 knockaround frigate.....

It is only that due to being the top tier frig .. once the pass is done and all frigates have been tweaked the "problem" ceases to be as Kestrel probably gets an extra slot and hopefully a twin damage bonus (or damage + exp.radius).

If all goes well, tiers as we know them will be history.
Liam Mirren
#5 - 2012-05-26 14:52:23 UTC
CCP doesn't do logic, they don't do proper coding and they can't balance ships. The Merlin is SO overpowered it's ridiculous, to a point one really has to wonder "what were they thinking".

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.

Hail Goddess
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2012-05-26 16:27:33 UTC
I'm going to disagree with the above poster. The Merlin isn't overpowered. @tleast compared to the changes made to the Punisher and Incursus.

Each frigate has one or 2 optimum setup that enables them to defeat each other. With exception. The Rifter is able to defeat a Incursus and Punisher (without a neut). Depending on the setup.

Anyway. If the Rifter just had a 3 (high slot), 4 (mid slot) and 3 (low slot) layout. Throw in a Increase in power grid and a significant increase in CPU. I believe the Rifter would be alot more competitive with buffed frigates.

@ the moment. The Incursus and Merlin have benifited the most out of these changes...
Liam Mirren
#7 - 2012-05-26 22:58:10 UTC
175 dps, 8k EHP, AB and full tackle or a dual prop with 7+kEHP and 165 dps. That's overpowered as hell, the Punisher can't come close to that, not on dps, nor on full tackle or dual prop. That 170 dps will make mince meat of the new incursus as well, its tank+ehp simply isn't up to the task. Any rifter being foolish enough to attack a pvp fit Merlin is an idiot and will die in flames.

Don't get my wrong, I don't mind it (I fly caldari only and mostly hybrid ships) but I would be a hypocrite if I stated it's on par and well balanced.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.

Hail Goddess
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2012-05-27 01:52:17 UTC
8,000 (rounded) ehp, 170d per second. This is with a Mwd. What ship is able to put up those stats? There's another frigate recently changed that's able to field 10,000ehp. Merlin is also able to field the same ehp.

Not to mention. A pilot is able to do silly things with a Incursus and Punisher when you fit a afterburner instead of a Micro-warp drive.



Even when I first looked @ the new Harpy. You know, when CCP was doing thier initial changes. I knew it was ridick, but how much so was hard to say. People where so focused on the Hawk and ignored the Harpy.

@tm across 2 characters. I use it as a Slicer a Jaguar or active tanked, while doing 300d per second (It excels @ everything). Still, The Ishkur is superior and Enyo is close enough in terms of long range and active tanked setups for it to be inline with the Harpy.

Once optimal setups have permeated tranq. Then you might have a clearer picture of what's op or not.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#9 - 2012-05-27 09:38:35 UTC
Kaikka Carel wrote:
So these ships were drastically reworked but their T2 variants still have:

- Speed and inertia based on the older T1 variants. This results in T1 having better stats.
- Both Vengeance and Harpy have damage bonus tied to Assault Ships skill which is not always trained to V. Though it may be compensated by 3 turrets instead of 4 it's still weird.
- Capacitors. Merlins capacitor is superior to Harpy's. In case of Punisher it is somewhat balanced out by recharge times.

Still it looks like some of the developers downgraded the ships...

Should CCP buff respective AFs to the level of those frigates?


I thought that the new harpy was already excellent

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Kaikka Carel
Ziea
#10 - 2012-05-27 09:44:08 UTC
^Merlin would win a race.
Liam Mirren
#11 - 2012-05-27 10:10:19 UTC
AF being slower than its T1 counterpart, not really a shocker now is it. The Harpy is a tiny package of Awesome, its only issue is agility which isn't really Caldari's thing anyway and is compounded by being an AF.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.

Kaikka Carel
Ziea
#12 - 2012-05-27 10:24:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaikka Carel
iirc Caldari have second best inertia after Minmatar.

Harpy/Hawk and Vengeance/Retribution are really slower than their new parents. I don't say that they should be instantly buffed but just wonder why an improved(and more costly) version is worse at something so drastically.

Also what about damage bonuses? Maybe some of them could be swapped between Assualt Ships and Racial Frigates?
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#13 - 2012-05-27 12:59:16 UTC
Kaikka Carel wrote:
So these ships were drastically reworked but their T2 variants still have:

- Speed and inertia based on the older T1 variants. This results in T1 having better stats.
- Both Vengeance and Harpy have damage bonus tied to Assault Ships skill which is not always trained to V. Though it may be compensated by 3 turrets instead of 4 it's still weird.
- Capacitors. Merlins capacitor is superior to Harpy's. In case of Punisher it is somewhat balanced out by recharge times.

Still it looks like some of the developers downgraded the ships...

Should CCP buff respective AFs to the level of those frigates?


Command ships never received the hp buff that tech 1 bcs received 6+ years ago resulting in the tech 1s having higher base hp values. Based on that time frame I think that this fail is here to stay just like the command ship fail of the past.
Lili Lu
#14 - 2012-05-27 15:28:30 UTC
Yes, the pace of the rebalancing changes does not seem to have been corrected by CCP. Be prepared for a game with many odd imbalances existing for years to come. Sad
Trading Unknown
Doomheim
#15 - 2012-05-27 16:31:28 UTC
Quote:
8,000 (rounded) ehp, 170d per second


Do you have that fit handy?
Kaikka Carel
Ziea
#16 - 2012-05-27 16:40:34 UTC
Trading Unknown wrote:
Quote:
8,000 (rounded) ehp, 170d per second


Do you have that fit handy?


[Merlin, Merlin fit]

Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Pseudoelectron Containment Field I
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II

1MN Afterburner II
Medium Shield Extender II
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I

Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S

Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Small Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Robur Carolinum
Machina Electrica
#17 - 2012-05-27 17:29:23 UTC
Ansel Mandisant wrote:
It seems really odd to me that CCP took the racial weapon for the Caldari away from their primary T1 knockaround frigate. In essence, it seems as though what they have done is given the Caldari what amounts to a blaster pvp platform. If they were going to change the way that the Merlin fights so dramattically, why not do it in a way that didn't remove the racial weapon component from the ship?What?

At a guess, this was to allow a greater differentiation between the Merlin and Kestrel, which presumably will be buffed with the other missile frigs at some point in the near(ish) future.
Liam Mirren
#18 - 2012-05-27 17:48:41 UTC
Trading Unknown wrote:
Quote:
8,000 (rounded) ehp, 170d per second


Do you have that fit handy?



[Merlin, PVP]
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II

1MN Afterburner II
Medium Shield Extender II
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator

Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S

Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I



[Merlin, Dual prop]
Damage Control II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

1MN Afterburner II
Limited 1MN MicroWarpdrive I
Medium Shield Extender II
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I

Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S

Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.

Hail Goddess
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2012-05-27 18:11:42 UTC
Trading Unknown wrote:
Quote:
8,000 (rounded) ehp, 170d per second


Do you have that fit handy?


The setup I was refering to was the Incursus. It's able to put up those stats.

I also, referenced the Punisher with regard to 10,000 Ehit points. The Merlin is able to gain similar stats. While the punisher cannot perma neut like a Vengeance and Retribution can. It's still able to run a neutraliser for a very long time with a warp scrambler and gatling pulse lasers active. While doing significant damage. It's able to incapacitate alot of frigates. Including many combat intereceptors (Taranis, Crusader) and assault frigates. Which translates into a GTFO module and ruines the dual armor repair Incursus. Although, the incursus is able to tank a Punishers damage on 1 armor repair (heated, with or without synth exile and capacitor booster) LOL.

I'm not home and I'm about to head to a pub. I'll paste the setup later on when I get a chance. Either way. These 3 frigates (Punisher, Melrin, Incursus) are inline with each other. The Rifter is the odd man out. I've yet to figure out a way around these changes for the Rifter and many others are in the same boat. More so when dealing with the Incursus and Merlin.

I see no way around it unless the Rifter leaves warp scrambler range altogether. Another issue is. These changes have made the Merlin and Incursus as good or better than thier navy faction counter-parts. WTF is up with that?
Pink Marshmellow
Caucasian Culture Club
#20 - 2012-05-28 04:52:44 UTC
Oh boy with the Tiericide and Tech 1 ship balancing. I think EVERY ADVANCED TECH SHIP will need a makeover.



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