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Why is the CSM not saying anything?

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Untouchable Heart
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#61 - 2012-05-25 23:06:03 UTC
Blue Harrier wrote:
Last night (UK time), I was playing Skyrim and had a sudden thought, are we being used as labrats to test this new UI because it is designed for use with a consoles joypad?

Think about it a bit, this design of UI would work excellently with a joypad and is in a way something like the tree view, container driven menu system that many console games have. So are we in fact testing the UI interface that will be used in Dust?

Is this the ‘unifying’ interface on both Eve the game and Dust so both players will see a similar UI and that eventually Eve the game might be able to run on the next generation consoles? - snip -

Blue:
An excellent hypothesis. I postulated that they were trying to make life miserable for botters and macroers at the expense of a bad human player experience.

I think we both agree : this new system defies logic and thus points to a hidden agenda.

To CCP:
Maybe my comments like "failure to handle object inheritance" are not considered specific enough to warrant consideration. Sorry if I was thinking like a programmer, but object inheritance and drawing windows are Programming 101. Ignoring professional standards and stating things more in generic terms of player feedback, I don't see anyone saying that this is wanted, or a great idea, or an improvement. In fact, players are saying it is bad, and not really usable in its current form, but may well have potential.

Now add in all the very specific complaints and I must say that I can't believe this is about to happen.

The real question is : are you really listening to the players as stated within the "new and improved" player based change concept? Or, what level of player dissatisfaction needs to be expressed before you will listen and react accordingly?

kk - I'll STFU now.
Untouchable Heart
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#62 - 2012-05-25 23:11:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Untouchable Heart
Just read this:

#957 Posted: 2012.05.25 22:49 |


CCP Punkturis wrote:

I was working on War Dec and Kill Reports this release - hope you like that stuff!

Answer from WolfSchwarzMond BSC LEGION

"This was on the 1st page of the EVE Online: Inferno - Feedback thread. Post number 10. This tells me that CCP knew we'd hate this new Inventory. There a is Dev going "Don't blame me. I was working on something else.!"

So after 25 pages here and 50 pages in the Feedback Thread, 90% of them saying this thing is "CRAP" or "junk" or "Stupid" or that is just "SUX" the question is simple. Why can't CCP learn from it's own mistakes? We've been here before......]

"Red flags raised by very smart people both at CCP and in the community went unheeded because of my stubborn refusal to allow adversity to gain purchase on our plans." -Hilmar Veigar Pétursson, CEO

And so CCP have repeated the same mistake. Making a change, testing it, getting feeback from players that said "THIS SUCKS" then ramming it down the player's collective throats anyway.

"The greatest lesson for me is the realization that EVE belongs to you, and we at CCP are just the hosts of your experience." -Hilmar Veigar Pétursson, CEO

Well Sir, this was a lesson you didn't learn. You are proving it. The new inventory has made Looting from Wrecks, Player Owned Station operations, Jetcan Mining, Corporate Hanger Ops, and dealing with large amounts of items into a tedious, time wasting, torture sessions. The new system lags. It in some cases makes it harder to find things. It makes you repeat the same actions over and over and over where before it was once. Your people were told time and again during Sisi testing that this change was not a good idea, but you did it anyway. Again....

I would humbly suggest that you either Rollback this change or make it optional as you did with the whole Captain's Quarters fiasco. Let us not take this latest lack of good judgement and turn it into International news.
Prove to us you can learn from your mistakes. And stop repeating them.

Quotes taken from here http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2672
"
Seleene
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
#63 - 2012-05-25 23:33:15 UTC
Jack Carrigan wrote:
Seleene- Hardly, as I would review the ones that had obvious merits and dismiss the ones that stunk of blatant emo-rage. But mocking those who vote to keep you in office is hardly a way to inspire confidence. You are a representative of the players, but are doing a fantastic job to lose respect, which is what wins votes and thus elections.


Mate... maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaate.... If you can't handle some light-hearted joking and take everything this serious, you probably wouldn't want to actually run for CSM, much less deal with some of the ~good times~ trolling and hilarity that goes on when dealing with CCP directly. I don't 'respect' the fact that so many seem ready to burn the CSM at the stake because we are not somehow magically getting CCP to turn back time / revert the changes NOW NOW NOW or take remote control of the development servers and turn them over to people that can 'do it better'. As has been pointed out by no less than four CSMs in this thread, we are not sitting on our hands and we are doing what we can to help alleviate the problem that we are ALL suffering from atm.

Your post, which I 'mocked', seemed to ignore that we are already doing exactly as you say you would do if you were able, just without the seeming ~outrage~ that so many seem to be baffled the CSM is not righteously displaying. It was also completely dismissive of replies that had already been given in this thread, links to other threads and the content of the same. Insinuating that you would somehow be able to do more, without so much as acknowledging the aforementioned efforts already being made, marked your post in my eyes as a blatant 'come at me bro' troll. I actually read your post and my reply to it reflected my mood - you were ignoring the replies I'd made in this thread so I wasn't really moved to take what you said seriously either. If your post WAS serious, then it certainly didn't come across as such.

Here is what I see happening as of right now:

  • CCP isn't going to roll back the changes. They will keep working to evolve the current feature as quickly as possible.
  • Not much is going to happen in the next 48 hours because it's the weekend.
  • I could be wrong and the dudes responsible may work all weekend to iterate on the United Inventory feature (doubt it).
  • The CSM will be in Iceland next week and this subject will obviously be front and center.
  • I will be sending out non-NDA updates from the summit as much as I can as we talk to the various teams.

At this point there is quite literally nothing else the CSM can do that we've not already done over the past few weeks, especially since Inferno went live. The onus is on CCP to now act on how the CSM and the community has reacted to their decisions.

2004-2008: Mercenary Coalition Boss

2007-2010: CCP Game Designer | 2011-2013: CSM6 Delegate & CSM7 Chairman

2011-2015: Pandemic Legionnaire

2015- : Mercenary Coalition Boss

Follow Seleene on Twitter!
Ribikoka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#64 - 2012-05-25 23:47:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Ribikoka
Seleene wrote:
Jack Carrigan wrote:
Seleene- Hardly, as I would review the ones that had obvious merits and dismiss the ones that stunk of blatant emo-rage. But mocking those who vote to keep you in office is hardly a way to inspire confidence. You are a representative of the players, but are doing a fantastic job to lose respect, which is what wins votes and thus elections.


Mate... maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaate.... If you can't handle some light-hearted joking and take everything this serious, you probably wouldn't want to actually run for CSM, much less deal with some of the ~good times~ trolling and hilarity that goes on when dealing with CCP directly. I don't 'respect' the fact that so many seem ready to burn the CSM at the stake because we are not somehow magically getting CCP to turn back time / revert the changes NOW NOW NOW or take remote control of the development servers and turn them over to people that can 'do it better'. As has been pointed out by no less than four CSMs in this thread, we are not sitting on our hands and we are doing what we can to help alleviate the problem that we are ALL suffering from atm.

Your post, which I 'mocked', seemed to ignore that we are already doing exactly as you say you would do if you were able, just without the seeming ~outrage~ that so many seem to be baffled the CSM is not righteously displaying. It was also completely dismissive of replies that had already been given in this thread, links to other threads and the content of the same. Insinuating that you would somehow be able to do more, without so much as acknowledging the aforementioned efforts already being made, marked your post in my eyes as a blatant 'come at me bro' troll. I actually read your post and my reply to it reflected my mood - you were ignoring the replies I'd made in this thread so I wasn't really moved to take what you said seriously either. If your post WAS serious, then it certainly didn't come across as such.

Here is what I see happening as of right now:

  • CCP isn't going to roll back the changes. They will keep working to evolve the current feature as quickly as possible.
  • Not much is going to happen in the next 48 hours because it's the weekend.
  • I could be wrong and the dudes responsible may work all weekend to iterate on the United Inventory feature (doubt it).
  • The CSM will be in Iceland next week and this subject will obviously be front and center.
  • I will be sending out non-NDA updates from the summit as much as I can as we talk to the various teams.

At this point there is quite literally nothing else the CSM can do that we've not already done over the past few weeks, especially since Inferno went live. The onus is on CCP to now act on how the CSM and the community has reacted to their decisions.


Just for you again: http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2672

If they not change this politics they will lose 20k players again. They will rolling back this sh*t or their nightmares will starting again.
No it's not true. Exactly their nightmare started, many players left the game already.

You really know what will happen in the last 48 hours, but you fail again, because that is 72 hours,. Do you know monday may 28 is holyday at Island ?
We dont care this crap ui, we just not need it.
None ofthe Above
#65 - 2012-05-26 00:47:05 UTC  |  Edited by: None ofthe Above
Seleene wrote:
Jack Carrigan wrote:
Seleene- Hardly, as I would review the ones that had obvious merits and dismiss the ones that stunk of blatant emo-rage. But mocking those who vote to keep you in office is hardly a way to inspire confidence. You are a representative of the players, but are doing a fantastic job to lose respect, which is what wins votes and thus elections.


Mate... maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaate.... If you can't handle some light-hearted joking and take everything this serious, you probably wouldn't want to actually run for CSM, much less deal with some of the ~good times~ trolling and hilarity that goes on when dealing with CCP directly. I don't 'respect' the fact that so many seem ready to burn the CSM at the stake because we are not somehow magically getting CCP to turn back time / revert the changes NOW NOW NOW or take remote control of the development servers and turn them over to people that can 'do it better'. As has been pointed out by no less than four CSMs in this thread, we are not sitting on our hands and we are doing what we can to help alleviate the problem that we are ALL suffering from atm.

Your post, which I 'mocked', seemed to ignore that we are already doing exactly as you say you would do if you were able, just without the seeming ~outrage~ that so many seem to be baffled the CSM is not righteously displaying. It was also completely dismissive of replies that had already been given in this thread, links to other threads and the content of the same. Insinuating that you would somehow be able to do more, without so much as acknowledging the aforementioned efforts already being made, marked your post in my eyes as a blatant 'come at me bro' troll. I actually read your post and my reply to it reflected my mood - you were ignoring the replies I'd made in this thread so I wasn't really moved to take what you said seriously either. If your post WAS serious, then it certainly didn't come across as such.

Here is what I see happening as of right now:

  • CCP isn't going to roll back the changes. They will keep working to evolve the current feature as quickly as possible.
  • Not much is going to happen in the next 48 hours because it's the weekend.
  • I could be wrong and the dudes responsible may work all weekend to iterate on the United Inventory feature (doubt it).
  • The CSM will be in Iceland next week and this subject will obviously be front and center.
  • I will be sending out non-NDA updates from the summit as much as I can as we talk to the various teams.

At this point there is quite literally nothing else the CSM can do that we've not already done over the past few weeks, especially since Inferno went live. The onus is on CCP to now act on how the CSM and the community has reacted to their decisions.


Thanks for the good response.

I think it's still fairly valid to wonder why there was little more than "it'll be great" in the townhall. I do seem to remember some acknowledgment of concern there too, to your credit. The forums where exploding with little or no acknowledgement from the CSM. And Two step was right to an extent, the people angry about this where doing a fine job of getting the point across, but still in the middle of these issues is where I think we expect to see the CSM.

I do think there might be something to learn here about at least acknowledging concerns a bit earlier. If you guys where working hard behind the scenes, great. Still a dialog with the players might be good.

For example, this point: Is it seriously impossible to revert the inventory and run the unified version as an optional secondary way to look at this until the performance and other issues are resolved? As a software engineer I think this should be possible, but it depends on good version control and how it was implemented. It may or may not be feasible, but one wonders if the devs are just being stubborn on this point.

We were told something similar about the Orca corp hanger, but that got fixed one way or the other in reasonably short order.

Anyway, thanks for hanging in there and weathering the slings and arrows.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
Nick Bison
Bison Industrial Inc
Cat Scratch Fevers
#66 - 2012-05-26 01:05:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Nick Bison
Two step wrote:
Uh, wtf do you want us to say here? The new inventory system has some really sucky parts and some pretty nice parts. From what I have seen on the forums, you guys are doing a pretty good job of bitching to CCP all on your own.


Wow, look at all that support from our elected leaders.
Bought out for the price of a ticket to Iceland and you all turn in to lap-dogs.

Real Edit: I posted that prior to reading Selene's postings as 2-Step's response blows.
Thanks to Selene for the rational follow up.

Nothing clever at this time.
Kile Kitmoore
#67 - 2012-05-26 03:40:32 UTC
Careful with that light-hearted humor Seleene , didn't work out so well for your predecessor.

Is there somewhere that shows what exactly CSM's position is on the UI? What changes are you advocating? I mean there are a lot ideas out there so which do you think should be on CCP's hit-list? Wouldn't mind actually seeing each members position.

Thanks
Seismic Stan
Freebooted Junkworks
#68 - 2012-05-26 04:40:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Seismic Stan
As the player who asked the Inventory question which the CSM answered unsatisfactorily, I'm disappointed that people are using it to attack the CSM process.

At the time of the Town Hall broadcast, I was irritated by the CSM response to my question, as I felt it showed a general lack of awareness of the Inventory issue. To a degree I still believe this, however I appreciate with the impending summit there is undoubtedly a host of other issues which also demand their time and attention.

I think the more militant and vocal players should remember that no CSM member is being paid for their time - any and all effort they put into their role is entirely voluntary. The commitment they have made is on our behalf and there's absolutely no point in finger-pointing and name-calling.

It's at times like these, with issues impacting so many subscribers, that players should be supporting and empowering the CSM.

EVE Online: The Text Adventure --- GameSkinny Correspondent --- Freebooted Blogger
Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow
#69 - 2012-05-26 04:46:45 UTC
All I see in the reaction from the CSM here is a knee-jerk reaction to them as a whole being put up on blast for their lack of interaction. Quite sad really.

I am the One who exists in Shadow. I am the Devil your parents warned you about.

||CEO: Order of the Shadow||Executor: The Revenant Order||Creator: Bowhead||
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#70 - 2012-05-26 05:58:39 UTC
Jack Carrigan wrote:
All I see in the reaction from the CSM here is a knee-jerk reaction to them as a whole being put up on blast for their lack of interaction. Quite sad really.


Ditto...whole lot of backpedaling and excuses and not so much participation.

Gonna take a lot more than some scattered words of confidence to put any faith back into it.

Again...I know you guys can't do squat as far as taking action...but you sure as hell could be doing a lot more than sitting there in silence.

================ STOP THE EVEMAIL SPAM! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=78152
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#71 - 2012-05-26 06:36:08 UTC
Drake Draconis wrote:
I just love it when CSM show up and do a song and dance only to completely miss the point.Roll


->Create thread about lack of CSM participation and forum posts
->gets CSM to post in thread
->Talk about issue with CSM members, learn how they are dealing with issue
-> Have CSM members completely miss point of thread

It really is a art,

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow
#72 - 2012-05-26 06:50:47 UTC
Kusum Fawn wrote:
Drake Draconis wrote:
I just love it when CSM show up and do a song and dance only to completely miss the point.Roll


->Create thread about lack of CSM participation and forum posts
->gets CSM to post in thread
->Talk about issue with CSM members, learn how they are dealing with issue
-> Have CSM members completely miss point of thread

It really is a art,


Indeed it is.

Point, still missed.

I am the One who exists in Shadow. I am the Devil your parents warned you about.

||CEO: Order of the Shadow||Executor: The Revenant Order||Creator: Bowhead||
Ribikoka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#73 - 2012-05-26 08:39:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Ribikoka
Jack Carrigan wrote:
All I see in the reaction from the CSM here is a knee-jerk reaction to them as a whole being put up on blast for their lack of interaction. Quite sad really.


Do you know why ?
They didn't communicate with players, they didn't communicate with CCP and they didn't read the UI topic for information. Check Seleene answer to Jack Carrigan from weekend.

Now read CCP Soundwave answer from fixing:

"We should have another round of fixes/changes coming this Tuesday (Monday is a public holiday in Iceland)"

The testers made enough feedback for easy fix, the testers pointed out the problems to CCP and for CSM too, but CSM did nothing.
SeenButNotHeard
Perkone
Caldari State
#74 - 2012-05-26 12:24:33 UTC
I like the fact that the CSM are putting some effort into this thread.

That said I think the whole point of it is that the CSM is not communicating their efforts effectively enough.

There doesn't seem to be a "presence" in the player threads that are either a) trying to make sensible constructive criticism or b) b!tchslapping CCP for such a massive fail.

The UI sucks and we all know it - I just think that the CSM needs to be louder, not quieter and working in the background.

(Also - CSM tags should be clickable so we can see posts by them - they should show on the forum)

TL;DR - More communicative CSM please - we were spoiled before and you seem a bit....toothless.
Caprican Erock
CE Diversified Holdings Incorporated
#75 - 2012-05-26 13:27:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Caprican Erock
I thank the CSM for looking into this and putting it at the top of the list.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#76 - 2012-05-26 19:45:08 UTC
Jack Carrigan wrote:
You act like that is a new thing. The whole thing is a crock as only the major power blocs are ever represented



Which major powerblocks do Issler and Trebor represent?


Oh wait, you're making **** up to excuse your lack of involvement

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Maraner
The Executioners
Capital Punishment.
#77 - 2012-05-27 12:03:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Maraner
CSM please point out to CCP the growing **** storm in regards to the player base. I can't say the new UI is universally despised, there are at least two people that like it. probably ones that don't have towers or corp hangers or manufacture anything.

This is growing into a major firestorm, and seriously it is not going away. Please before we drop another 5k subs, please point out to CCP the sense of rage regarding this diseased barely funtional, laggy UI 'improvement'.

I'm not sure there are words strong enough to describe how important that is. It is enraging people, it just feels like Incarna again.
cuculet
Bearing Srl.
#78 - 2012-05-27 13:20:14 UTC
CSM before the s**t storm: "GO CCP! GO CCP!"

after: "hmm, we are aware there may be some problems, but CCP it's working on it; not in weekend ofc, but they are really, really stressed about it; it will be fixed in severall weks, or several months cose you know, they are really working hard on it..."

CSM, what a joke...

you even succed in making me regret the mitani, and let me tell you ladds that was a thing i never ever imagined...
Davon Mandra'thin
Das Collective
#79 - 2012-05-27 15:44:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Davon Mandra'thin
Maraner wrote:
I can't say the new UI is universally despised, there are at least two people that like it. probably ones that don't have towers or corp hangers or manufacture anything.


I do all of those things. And I still don't find the new UI a problem. Also, most of my corp think the following of the UI - "Meh". Get the occasional comment about the estimated prices and filters being cool. One or two odd comments about "its going to take some time to get used to". Even the corp my alt is in doesn't have any problems with it. I don't understand how all the forum trolls have such a problem with it.

Yes, there are problems. No, they are not a big deal.

Maraner wrote:
Please before we drop another 5k subs.


Where do you get your stats from? Having talked to so few people in game who have a problem with the UI, and having not seen anyone rage "-1 SUB CCP!!!" on the forums I cant see that anyone has left over this.

This is just such a massive over-reaction over practically nothing as far as I can tell.
Seleene
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
#80 - 2012-05-27 16:03:32 UTC
Happy to be wrong about CCP not working on a weekend. Today, on an Icelandic holiday Sunday no less, CCP Soundwave has released another dev blog:

This Week in the Unified Inventory

The money lines of this blog are:

"As a remedy, we’re going to try and provide you with weekly changes to it, until we get it into a state where you’re happy with it."

"Again, you guys have my deepest apologies for this situation. We’ll do whatever we can to rectify it. We're going to continue to take your valuable feedback and add it to the list of changes we want to make."

I don't think I've ever read anything by CCP where they publicly commit to weekly changes on a feature.

One thing I know is that CCP's management is not taking this lightly at all. On Friday night I spoke with CCP Unifex (Jon Lander), EVE's Senior Producer about this issue specifically. While I cannot detail the whole conversation, I can say that this is something which is getting a lot of attention internally at CCP and will be front and center in our discussions at the Summit this week.

2004-2008: Mercenary Coalition Boss

2007-2010: CCP Game Designer | 2011-2013: CSM6 Delegate & CSM7 Chairman

2011-2015: Pandemic Legionnaire

2015- : Mercenary Coalition Boss

Follow Seleene on Twitter!