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Why are drugs not allowed?

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Conjugate Momenta
Uwu punish me sexy zorya daddy
#1 - 2012-05-25 14:19:03 UTC
I understand why pirate implants are banned - if allowed, every single ship on every serious team would have full HG pirate sets.

But drugs come with disadvantages, not all ships are noticeably improved by them - why are they not allowed?
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#2 - 2012-05-25 14:30:19 UTC
Conjugate Momenta wrote:
I understand why pirate implants are banned - if allowed, every single ship on every serious team would have full HG pirate sets.

But drugs come with disadvantages, not all ships are noticeably improved by them - why are they not allowed?


I can provide a deeper response later but the main reason is that they're more difficult to police fairly more than the negative effects on performance.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Intigo
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2012-05-25 14:43:34 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Conjugate Momenta wrote:
I understand why pirate implants are banned - if allowed, every single ship on every serious team would have full HG pirate sets.

But drugs come with disadvantages, not all ships are noticeably improved by them - why are they not allowed?


I can provide a deeper response later but the main reason is that they're more difficult to police fairly more than the negative effects on performance.


Deeper responses similar to the ones people get from emailing the EVETV address?

hydra provail
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#4 - 2012-05-25 14:45:21 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Conjugate Momenta wrote:
I understand why pirate implants are banned - if allowed, every single ship on every serious team would have full HG pirate sets.

But drugs come with disadvantages, not all ships are noticeably improved by them - why are they not allowed?


I can provide a deeper response later but the main reason is that they're more difficult to police fairly more than the negative effects on performance.

I'm not sure I get what you mean by the "police fairly" issue. Is the concern that you'd have two alts take a strong drop (for example) right before the tourney and enter the alt who didn't get the penalty (or got the irrelevant one)?
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#5 - 2012-05-25 15:14:18 UTC
EvilweaselSA wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Conjugate Momenta wrote:
I understand why pirate implants are banned - if allowed, every single ship on every serious team would have full HG pirate sets.

But drugs come with disadvantages, not all ships are noticeably improved by them - why are they not allowed?


I can provide a deeper response later but the main reason is that they're more difficult to police fairly more than the negative effects on performance.

I'm not sure I get what you mean by the "police fairly" issue. Is the concern that you'd have two alts take a strong drop (for example) right before the tourney and enter the alt who didn't get the penalty (or got the irrelevant one)?


I mean the way drugs work from a backend technical perspective. It's a partial technical decision, but part of that is also wanting to avoid a situation where some chucklehead comes into system with it in his hull and pops it early. Then we have to detect it and come up with a fair punishment etc etc etc.

We're trying to get away from manual process not add more and we've done a ton more of that this year than we've been able to in the past. Hopefully next year we can come up with a way to handle drugs.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
Masters of Flying Objects
#6 - 2012-05-25 15:20:32 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
EvilweaselSA wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Conjugate Momenta wrote:
I understand why pirate implants are banned - if allowed, every single ship on every serious team would have full HG pirate sets.

But drugs come with disadvantages, not all ships are noticeably improved by them - why are they not allowed?


I can provide a deeper response later but the main reason is that they're more difficult to police fairly more than the negative effects on performance.

I'm not sure I get what you mean by the "police fairly" issue. Is the concern that you'd have two alts take a strong drop (for example) right before the tourney and enter the alt who didn't get the penalty (or got the irrelevant one)?


I mean the way drugs work from a backend technical perspective. It's a partial technical decision, but part of that is also wanting to avoid a situation where some chucklehead comes into system with it in his hull and pops it early. Then we have to detect it and come up with a fair punishment etc etc etc.

We're trying to get away from manual process not add more and we've done a ton more of that this year than we've been able to in the past. Hopefully next year we can come up with a way to handle drugs.

So the Tournament clients on your end function better? Do the camera views work better this year?

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#7 - 2012-05-25 15:22:41 UTC
Salpun wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
EvilweaselSA wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Conjugate Momenta wrote:
I understand why pirate implants are banned - if allowed, every single ship on every serious team would have full HG pirate sets.

But drugs come with disadvantages, not all ships are noticeably improved by them - why are they not allowed?


I can provide a deeper response later but the main reason is that they're more difficult to police fairly more than the negative effects on performance.

I'm not sure I get what you mean by the "police fairly" issue. Is the concern that you'd have two alts take a strong drop (for example) right before the tourney and enter the alt who didn't get the penalty (or got the irrelevant one)?


I mean the way drugs work from a backend technical perspective. It's a partial technical decision, but part of that is also wanting to avoid a situation where some chucklehead comes into system with it in his hull and pops it early. Then we have to detect it and come up with a fair punishment etc etc etc.

We're trying to get away from manual process not add more and we've done a ton more of that this year than we've been able to in the past. Hopefully next year we can come up with a way to handle drugs.

So the Tournament clients on your end function better? Do the camera views work better this year?


It's not about function it's about automation. For instance the tournament used to require upwards of 8 GMs and two referees to function at all. We're down to 2 and 1 this year having built tools to automate a lot of what was manual labor.

Exactly the kinds of things people have asked us to do when we mention the resources required in years past.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Daneel Trevize
Give my 11percent back
#8 - 2012-05-25 15:23:54 UTC
IDGI, how does taking drugs early help anyone??? Their effects don't grow with time, and they are time-limited.
If anything it means while they're banned you could take them before being moved, and you're saying CCP have a hard time detecting that??
Kadesh Priestess
Goryn Clade
#9 - 2012-05-25 15:24:06 UTC
Really don't see how implants are different compared to boosters, which are timed implants with their certain effects being rules by fittingUsageChanceAttributeID.

You could forbid usage of boosters before match and let people use them during it if they wish. Not really hard checks. Also last time i checked there was no boosters affecting ship's hp attribute so what you just described just won't happen even in theory.
Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
Masters of Flying Objects
#10 - 2012-05-25 15:25:39 UTC
Nice but has the picture in picture, score board and other visual clues that make the tournament look better and easier to under stand for a new player been figured out.

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.
Tyrrax Thorrk
Guiding Hand Social Club
#11 - 2012-05-25 15:29:14 UTC
drugs are bad mkay
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#12 - 2012-05-25 15:31:19 UTC
Kadesh Priestess wrote:
Really don't see how implants are different compared to boosters, which are timed implants with their certain effects being rules by fittingUsageChanceAttributeID.

You could forbid usage of boosters before match and let people use them during it if they wish. Not really hard checks. Also last time i checked there was no boosters affecting ship's hp attribute so what you just described just won't happen even in theory.


I've already explained that it has to do with policing WHEN they're taken and what it does to our automation. You're just going to have to believe that the back end makes this a problem and while we like the added variety we just haven't had the time to deal with that end of it prior to the deadline for rules.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#13 - 2012-05-25 15:31:58 UTC
Salpun wrote:
Nice but has the picture in picture, score board and other visual clues that make the tournament look better and easier to under stand for a new player been figured out.


I think we'll see some different things visually this year but I'll leave that to others to explain once/if they get ironed out.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Kadesh Priestess
Goryn Clade
#14 - 2012-05-25 15:32:35 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
You're just going to have to believe
okay
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#15 - 2012-05-25 15:32:53 UTC  |  Edited by: EvilweaselSA
CCP Sreegs wrote:

It's not about function it's about automation. For instance the tournament used to require upwards of 8 GMs and two referees to function at all. We're down to 2 and 1 this year having built tools to automate a lot of what was manual labor.

Exactly the kinds of things people have asked us to do when we mention the resources required in years past.

It makes perfect sense you want to cut down on the work you have to do. I think the confusion is more how taking drugs early matters, unless you don't want people to be able to communicate their side-effects before the match starts.

In any case i think it's more curiosity than any real "what the hell is wrong with you" sort of question.
Ember Saint
Time-Lost Proto-Drake
#16 - 2012-05-25 15:34:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Ember Saint
Side effects are chance-based so it puts huge alliances at a ridiculous advantage - hundreds of pilots will consume a strong booster and those who don't get any side effects will be the ones competing. Put this against the odds of a smaller team to get a team with benefits without penalties. It could however be made fair if booster usage was only allowed in a way that all effects get wiped when entering the tourney solar system and thus there is no way to avoid side effects via pilot selection.

Why are the huge alliances are not favoured in this way then? Maybe they haven't thought of this yet
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#17 - 2012-05-25 15:35:37 UTC
EvilweaselSA wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:

It's not about function it's about automation. For instance the tournament used to require upwards of 8 GMs and two referees to function at all. We're down to 2 and 1 this year having built tools to automate a lot of what was manual labor.

Exactly the kinds of things people have asked us to do when we mention the resources required in years past.

It makes perfect sense you want to cut down on the work you have to do. I think the confusion is more how taking drugs early matters, unless you don't want people to be able to communicate their side-effects before the match starts.

In any case i think it's more curiosity than any real "what the hell is wrong with you" sort of question.


Because from a strict standpoint we want no effects in progress prior to "Go" in the arena.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
EvilweaselSA
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#18 - 2012-05-25 15:36:11 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:

Because from a strict standpoint we want no effects in progress prior to "Go" in the arena.

Ok that makes sense, thanks!
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#19 - 2012-05-25 15:36:12 UTC
Ember Saint wrote:
Side effects are chance-based so it puts huge alliances at a ridiculous advantage - hundreds of pilots will consume a strong booster and those who don't get any side effects will be the ones competing. Put this against the odds of a smaller team to get a team with benefits without penalties. It could however be made fair if booster usage was only allowed in a way that all effects get wiped when entering the tourney solar system and thus there is no way to avoid side effects via pilot selection.

Why are the huge alliances are not favoured in this way then? Maybe they haven't thought of this yet


Confirming that cost was originally also a concern but it's less of one now.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012
Killer Gandry
The Concilium Enterprises
#20 - 2012-05-25 15:41:04 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:


Confirming that cost was originally also a concern but it's less of one now.


I think we can safely say that drugs for an AT would be far less in cost that the amount of PLEX required to secure a spot in the first place.
So cut the cost bullcrap.
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