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Merc Market? Anyone else disappointed in it?

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Lordess Trader
Phoenix Evolved Part Duo
#21 - 2012-05-24 12:29:41 UTC
To be honest i have to agree here i was truely hoping for a way for merc corps to flag themselves as such and show up in an actual marketplace window, with rankings, and stats etc for evaluation... i had the same experience of bumping into the all wars, not understanding it and going back to what i was doing... it was just not something that great...

new war system is a good step, kill reports is a good step towards when we finally have ingame killboards, and hopefully someday actually battle reports by each battle with overall stats......

but the merc market is NOT a market i mean come on i really hope they hvae more planned for this to come soon.
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#22 - 2012-05-24 12:59:55 UTC
Mercs in most cases are a waste of time.

The cost of fighting a war is beyond the average player or corporations means. People have to camp in this game to get a kill versus anyone halfway competent.

That means that you aren't paying for results but the manpower hours involved in getting a kill. This obviously goes up with the size of the merc corporation you hire and even more based on the threat of loss the target brings to the merc.

To the majority of corporations the idea of spending 1 billion a week to arguably make one iota of difference isn't particularly compelling. The merc cannot prevent the target from hunting the employer. They can't even guarentee a kill.

However under the same light no one is going to war without an upfront payment and results based pay can lead to a merc camping 40+ hours per week and walking away with nothing.

Until they get rid of local mercs will be at best a paramilitary death squad available to only the richest alliances and players, arguably cost ineffective and likely if paid to increase the net loss the employer endures as opposed to them just logging out of EVE until the attacker retracts the war.

The ally button is a poor attempt at helping out bad ceos and their unorganized corporations. Thats pretty much it.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#23 - 2012-05-24 13:43:24 UTC
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
Mercs in most cases are a waste of time.

The cost of fighting a war is beyond the average player or corporations means. People have to camp in this game to get a kill versus anyone halfway competent.

That means that you aren't paying for results but the manpower hours involved in getting a kill. This obviously goes up with the size of the merc corporation you hire and even more based on the threat of loss the target brings to the merc.

To the majority of corporations the idea of spending 1 billion a week to arguably make one iota of difference isn't particularly compelling. The merc cannot prevent the target from hunting the employer. They can't even guarentee a kill.

However under the same light no one is going to war without an upfront payment and results based pay can lead to a merc camping 40+ hours per week and walking away with nothing.

Until they get rid of local mercs will be at best a paramilitary death squad available to only the richest alliances and players, arguably cost ineffective and likely if paid to increase the net loss the employer endures as opposed to them just logging out of EVE until the attacker retracts the war.

The ally button is a poor attempt at helping out bad ceos and their unorganized corporations. Thats pretty much it.


Now, imagine if you could create a contract that pays out ISK for performance.

- You could make it a private contract, or even a public one to be accepted by any corp/alliance.
- You could optionally limit it to a specific set of regions / constellations / systems.
- You could optionally limit it to killing a particular corp/alliance or set of corps/alliances.
- You escrow a max-payout (total ISK to be paid out) upon creation of the contract.
- You specify a time limit of 1-14 days.
- Contract is completed when the ISK runs out.

Payouts would be done based on which corp/alliance gets the killing blow. In the case where a KM qualifies under multiple contracts, the oldest one takes precedence. Payouts for a particular kill would be split among members who are on-grid, just like rat bounties (including the applicable corp taxes).

Payouts could be specified as percentage of kill mail value (0% up to 999%) up to a maximum ISK value per kill of a particular ship class (frigate, dessy, cruiser, BC, BS, industrial, cap industrial, capitals, s-caps, titans, POS towers, etc). Those percentages / max payouts would need to be individually set for each ship class (maybe you only want to reward the killing of POS towers in a particular system).
Wacktopia
Fleet-Up.com
Keep It Simple Software Group
#24 - 2012-05-24 14:07:26 UTC
Disappointed? How about... shocked at how pointless the whole thing is made by the abortion that is the new ally system.

Kitchen sink? Seriousy, get your ship together -  Fleet-Up.com
wicked cheese
Doomheim
#25 - 2012-05-24 17:59:41 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:

Now, imagine if you could create a contract that pays out ISK for performance.


this is the way it should be handled. contracts setup with a certain amount of auto payed bounty per opponent shiptype.

so if a big alliance wanted to make some initiative against another big alliance. 500mil per cap ship destroyed and 30mil per battleship until the deposited total of the contract is depleted or time is up

smaller corp contracts could be taken by smaller merc corps or solo mercs to help build rep

this way the contractor doesnt get screwed out of their pre-payment in hopes they get results while the merc doesnt loose alot of time as they would be interested in taking on multiple contracts
Mathias Hex
#26 - 2012-05-25 01:08:53 UTC
Can anyone tell me if David ried is the new marketing director from swtor and if he was in marketing over there too? If memory serves me correctly CCP hired him around fanfest.

I suspect he is to blame for making the merc marketplace sound awesome when it couldnt get any more simple. Saw that **** all through swtor's development, severe fluffing of **** features.

If I am right he is one hell of a marketing director, just needs to find a company that can implement features to match his fluff.

I recall one night in a nightclub called the matrix, there I was... Mother of god there I am! Holy f**k.
Prisoner 002929
Wulgun Wing
#27 - 2012-05-25 02:26:48 UTC
Wacktopia wrote:
Disappointed? How about... shocked at how pointless the whole thing is made by the abortion that is the new ally system.



NO ONE can say the concerns weren't voiced. The UI fiasco AND the wardec abortion were both heavily debated on the feedback threads. Hi sec bears shouted down anyone with even a basic understand of the mechanic because they thought this was somehow going to be their new dec shield. What they really wanted was an end to wardecs in eve and this was the next best thing.
Saia Tae Arragosa
Doomheim
#28 - 2012-05-25 02:33:49 UTC
Well the system is not what CCP advertised - it is not a market.
Saia Tae Arragosa
Doomheim
#29 - 2012-05-25 02:36:22 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
Mercs in most cases are a waste of time.

The cost of fighting a war is beyond the average player or corporations means. People have to camp in this game to get a kill versus anyone halfway competent.

That means that you aren't paying for results but the manpower hours involved in getting a kill. This obviously goes up with the size of the merc corporation you hire and even more based on the threat of loss the target brings to the merc.

To the majority of corporations the idea of spending 1 billion a week to arguably make one iota of difference isn't particularly compelling. The merc cannot prevent the target from hunting the employer. They can't even guarentee a kill.

However under the same light no one is going to war without an upfront payment and results based pay can lead to a merc camping 40+ hours per week and walking away with nothing.

Until they get rid of local mercs will be at best a paramilitary death squad available to only the richest alliances and players, arguably cost ineffective and likely if paid to increase the net loss the employer endures as opposed to them just logging out of EVE until the attacker retracts the war.

The ally button is a poor attempt at helping out bad ceos and their unorganized corporations. Thats pretty much it.


Now, imagine if you could create a contract that pays out ISK for performance.

- You could make it a private contract, or even a public one to be accepted by any corp/alliance.
- You could optionally limit it to a specific set of regions / constellations / systems.
- You could optionally limit it to killing a particular corp/alliance or set of corps/alliances.
- You escrow a max-payout (total ISK to be paid out) upon creation of the contract.
- You specify a time limit of 1-14 days.
- Contract is completed when the ISK runs out.

Payouts would be done based on which corp/alliance gets the killing blow. In the case where a KM qualifies under multiple contracts, the oldest one takes precedence. Payouts for a particular kill would be split among members who are on-grid, just like rat bounties (including the applicable corp taxes).

Payouts could be specified as percentage of kill mail value (0% up to 999%) up to a maximum ISK value per kill of a particular ship class (frigate, dessy, cruiser, BC, BS, industrial, cap industrial, capitals, s-caps, titans, POS towers, etc). Those percentages / max payouts would need to be individually set for each ship class (maybe you only want to reward the killing of POS towers in a particular system).


This would be a great addition to an actual Merc Market. Allow Merc Corps to advertise themselves. Give corps access to the Mercs members list, kill to loss ratios and then let us put forth a contract like the one you described. I think that would be brilliant.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#30 - 2012-05-25 02:40:15 UTC
Mathias Hex wrote:
Can anyone tell me if David ried is the new marketing director from swtor and if he was in marketing over there too? If memory serves me correctly CCP hired him around fanfest.


David Reid came over from Trion / Rift.
http://venturebeat.com/2012/01/17/ccp-games-hires-david-reid-as-chief-marketing-officer-as-dust-514-nears-launch/

Quote:
Most recently, Reid helped launch Rift, the fantasy MMO from Trion Worlds. He managed a team of 50 people and helped get Rift to more than 1 million paid activations in just a few months. He orchestrated the Rift ad campaign, which used the tagline “We’re not in Azeroth Anymore,” a reference to the chief rival World of Warcraft.

Before joining Trion as senior vice president of marketing, Reid was president of publishing at NCsoft West. He was also vice president of marketing for game portal GameTap and director of the Xbox global platform marketing for Microsoft.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#31 - 2012-05-25 02:41:51 UTC
Saia Tae Arragosa wrote:

This would be a great addition to an actual Merc Market. Allow Merc Corps to advertise themselves. Give corps access to the Mercs members list, kill to loss ratios and then let us put forth a contract like the one you described. I think that would be brilliant.


It doesn't even need to be tied to the wardec system. If it's left open-ended as described, you could use it to hire mercs to suicide gank pilots in a hi-sec system, or remove towers / assets out in null-sec.
Mathias Hex
#32 - 2012-05-25 22:07:47 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Mathias Hex wrote:
Can anyone tell me if David ried is the new marketing director from swtor and if he was in marketing over there too? If memory serves me correctly CCP hired him around fanfest.


David Reid came over from Trion / Rift.
http://venturebeat.com/2012/01/17/ccp-games-hires-david-reid-as-chief-marketing-officer-as-dust-514-nears-launch/

Quote:
Most recently, Reid helped launch Rift, the fantasy MMO from Trion Worlds. He managed a team of 50 people and helped get Rift to more than 1 million paid activations in just a few months. He orchestrated the Rift ad campaign, which used the tagline “We’re not in Azeroth Anymore,” a reference to the chief rival World of Warcraft.

Before joining Trion as senior vice president of marketing, Reid was president of publishing at NCsoft West. He was also vice president of marketing for game portal GameTap and director of the Xbox global platform marketing for Microsoft.


I was thinking of Steven reid oops no wonder my search turned up nothing. Anyway I still think it's a terrible marketing strategy to boast a awesome feature that really isn't worth mentioning (as seen on swtor).

I'm kinda amazed people are more worried about the UI than a missing feature or rather a embelished feature which turns out isn't really a feature at all atleast not imho.

CCP devs seem to have their hands full atm and can not be bothered with missing features P Fear not CCP I will not threaten a rage quit I'm sure in a few years time we will have an actual merc market.

I recall one night in a nightclub called the matrix, there I was... Mother of god there I am! Holy f**k.
Wacktopia
Fleet-Up.com
Keep It Simple Software Group
#33 - 2012-05-27 22:40:40 UTC
Prisoner 002929 wrote:
Wacktopia wrote:
Disappointed? How about... shocked at how pointless the whole thing is made by the abortion that is the new ally system.



NO ONE can say the concerns weren't voiced. The UI fiasco AND the wardec abortion were both heavily debated on the feedback threads. Hi sec bears shouted down anyone with even a basic understand of the mechanic because they thought this was somehow going to be their new dec shield. What they really wanted was an end to wardecs in eve and this was the next best thing.


Here's the stupid thing; the threat to hi sec bears atm is the CFC cartel and the planned perma-hulkageddon and burn-whatevers.

Yet funnily enough I was there a few weeks ago. In jita. War-dec'ed to the CFC. Unpaid. Killing Goons. For the bears.

Go figure.

Kitchen sink? Seriousy, get your ship together -  Fleet-Up.com
CCP Punkturis
C C P
C C P Alliance
#34 - 2012-05-28 01:17:24 UTC
We wanted to make an epic mercenary market place but a while back we realized we wouldn't have time to do everything. That's why we ended up with the simple ally system. We would rather make sure the war mechanics and war reports along with the kill reports would be functioning and nice.

The best way to find a war you want to help out in is to go to the All Wars tab and check the box to see wars where the defender has requested assistance. That said, I should note that you can also offer your help in a war where the defender hasn't requested assistance.

A defender can show info on the ally and there see his whole war history, it should help with deciding on if you want those guys to help you out or not.

Hope you still like what we got there for you and I hope we will have some time to iterate on it in the future, a proper mercenary marketplace would be so awesome!

(I'm not here to discuss war mechanics, I'm not a game designer, just a UI programmer so I figured I should drop by and tell you more about how it works and why it's so simple)

♥ EVE Brogrammer ♥ Team Five 0 ♥ @CCP_Punkturis ♥
Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
Masters of Flying Objects
#35 - 2012-05-28 01:19:30 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:
We wanted to make an epic mercenary market place but a while back we realized we wouldn't have time to do everything. That's why we ended up with the simple ally system. We would rather make sure the war mechanics and war reports along with the kill reports would be functioning and nice.

The best way to find a war you want to help out in is to go to the All Wars tab and check the box to see wars where the defender has requested assistance. That said, I should note that you can also offer your help in a war where the defender hasn't requested assistance.

A defender can show info on the ally and there see his whole war history, it should help with deciding on if you want those guys to help you out or not.

Hope you still like what we got there for you and I hope we will have some time to iterate on it in the future, a proper mercenary marketplace would be so awesome!

(I'm not here to discuss war mechanics, I'm not a game designer, just a UI programmer so I figured I should drop by and tell you more about how it works and why it's so simple)

The bug reports I submited on the other thread are they bugs or featuresTwisted

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.
Mathias Hex
#36 - 2012-05-28 01:20:54 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:
We wanted to make an epic mercenary market place but a while back we realized we wouldn't have time to do everything. That's why we ended up with the simple ally system. We would rather make sure the war mechanics and war reports along with the kill reports would be functioning and nice.

The best way to find a war you want to help out in is to go to the All Wars tab and check the box to see wars where the defender has requested assistance. That said, I should note that you can also offer your help in a war where the defender hasn't requested assistance.

A defender can show info on the ally and there see his whole war history, it should help with deciding on if you want those guys to help you out or not.

Hope you still like what we got there for you and I hope we will have some time to iterate on it in the future, a proper mercenary marketplace would be so awesome!

(I'm not here to discuss war mechanics, I'm not a game designer, just a UI programmer so I figured I should drop by and tell you more about how it works and why it's so simple)


Thanks for answering that for us, so we can expect an actual merc market in the near future more along the lines of what was advertised as a feature for incarna?

I recall one night in a nightclub called the matrix, there I was... Mother of god there I am! Holy f**k.
CCP Punkturis
C C P
C C P Alliance
#37 - 2012-05-28 01:22:37 UTC
Salpun wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:
We wanted to make an epic mercenary market place but a while back we realized we wouldn't have time to do everything. That's why we ended up with the simple ally system. We would rather make sure the war mechanics and war reports along with the kill reports would be functioning and nice.

The best way to find a war you want to help out in is to go to the All Wars tab and check the box to see wars where the defender has requested assistance. That said, I should note that you can also offer your help in a war where the defender hasn't requested assistance.

A defender can show info on the ally and there see his whole war history, it should help with deciding on if you want those guys to help you out or not.

Hope you still like what we got there for you and I hope we will have some time to iterate on it in the future, a proper mercenary marketplace would be so awesome!

(I'm not here to discuss war mechanics, I'm not a game designer, just a UI programmer so I figured I should drop by and tell you more about how it works and why it's so simple)

The bug reports I submited on the other thread are they bugs or featuresTwisted


not sure what you're talking about. also it's 1am on a Holiday so I'm obviously not at the office and not looking at bug reportsP

♥ EVE Brogrammer ♥ Team Five 0 ♥ @CCP_Punkturis ♥
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#38 - 2012-05-28 01:22:49 UTC
Welcome to the second round of beta testing.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
CCP Punkturis
C C P
C C P Alliance
#39 - 2012-05-28 01:23:15 UTC
Mathias Hex wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:
We wanted to make an epic mercenary market place but a while back we realized we wouldn't have time to do everything. That's why we ended up with the simple ally system. We would rather make sure the war mechanics and war reports along with the kill reports would be functioning and nice.

The best way to find a war you want to help out in is to go to the All Wars tab and check the box to see wars where the defender has requested assistance. That said, I should note that you can also offer your help in a war where the defender hasn't requested assistance.

A defender can show info on the ally and there see his whole war history, it should help with deciding on if you want those guys to help you out or not.

Hope you still like what we got there for you and I hope we will have some time to iterate on it in the future, a proper mercenary marketplace would be so awesome!

(I'm not here to discuss war mechanics, I'm not a game designer, just a UI programmer so I figured I should drop by and tell you more about how it works and why it's so simple)


Thanks for answering that for us, so we can expect an actual merc market in the near future more along the lines of what was advertised as a feature for incarna?


heh Incarna? I don't remember what was advertised for that but I can't tell, it's not my callBig smile

♥ EVE Brogrammer ♥ Team Five 0 ♥ @CCP_Punkturis ♥
Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
Masters of Flying Objects
#40 - 2012-05-28 01:24:58 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Salpun wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:
We wanted to make an epic mercenary market place but a while back we realized we wouldn't have time to do everything. That's why we ended up with the simple ally system. We would rather make sure the war mechanics and war reports along with the kill reports would be functioning and nice.

The best way to find a war you want to help out in is to go to the All Wars tab and check the box to see wars where the defender has requested assistance. That said, I should note that you can also offer your help in a war where the defender hasn't requested assistance.

A defender can show info on the ally and there see his whole war history, it should help with deciding on if you want those guys to help you out or not.

Hope you still like what we got there for you and I hope we will have some time to iterate on it in the future, a proper mercenary marketplace would be so awesome!

(I'm not here to discuss war mechanics, I'm not a game designer, just a UI programmer so I figured I should drop by and tell you more about how it works and why it's so simple)

The bug reports I submited on the other thread are they bugs or featuresTwisted


not sure what you're talking about. also it's 1am on a Holiday so I'm obviously not at the office and not looking at bug reportsP

the main inferno feed back thread that you where posting on last night has some posts after you logged off that you might want to take a look at.

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.
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