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Manufacturing Question
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Volkan Alkaid
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-05-23 20:58:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Volkan Alkaid
I'm trying to plan for the best blueprints, costs etc for when I reach Higher Production Efficiency Levels.

(Waste Factor Being Ignored)
Each level of PE gives a -5% per skill level of materials required.
So future materials required (if planning for when you train the skill)
Should be

Material Required ='Perfect' Value*(1+(0.05*(5-PE Level)))

So in plain English. The minerals required are the perfect level, adding on 5% each time for every level under the maximum (5) that I am.

My maths might well be wrong here.
I am at PE 1. The Equation isn't working and I can't work out why.

For Tritanium - My 'You' Value is 18842, 'Perfect' Value is 15943
For Pyerite - My 'You' Value is 14751 'Perfect' Value is 12482

So You value/Perfect Value should be 1.2? (It would be 1-(0.2*PE Level)

And in plain English. 1.2 because it is 1.2 times more than the perfect value if my skill was at 5.

Doesn't work.


Where am I screwing up?
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#2 - 2012-05-23 21:06:18 UTC
Firstly, "Perfect" refers to skills I believe, not research. If the listed "Perfect" value is different than the other value, you do not have production efficiency to V.

Secondly, it's mineral efficiency that reduces the mineral cost (each level reduces wastage from 10% by half each time). PE reduces the time to produce.
Volkan Alkaid
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-05-23 21:11:47 UTC
I'm ignoring all the material level research etc. What I'm wanting to so basically is figure out how many minerals I'll need a PE level 4. That SHOULD be the blueprint "perfect" level +5%. Regardless of the waste factor.

If this was true that would mean that at PE 1 it should be the blueprint 'perfect' level +20%. Since each PE level takes 5% off.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-05-23 23:16:35 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Volkan Alkaid wrote:
I'm trying to plan for the best blueprints, costs etc for when I reach Higher Production Efficiency Levels.

(Waste Factor Being Ignored)
Each level of PE gives a -5% per skill level of materials required.
So future materials required (if planning for when you train the skill)
Should be

Material Required ='Perfect' Value*(1+(0.05*(5-PE Level)))

So in plain English. The minerals required are the perfect level, adding on 5% each time for every level under the maximum (5) that I am.

My maths might well be wrong here.
I am at PE 1. The Equation isn't working and I can't work out why.

For Tritanium - My 'You' Value is 18842, 'Perfect' Value is 15943
For Pyerite - My 'You' Value is 14751 'Perfect' Value is 12482

So You value/Perfect Value should be 1.2? (It would be 1-(0.2*PE Level)

And in plain English. 1.2 because it is 1.2 times more than the perfect value if my skill was at 5.

Doesn't work.


Where am I screwing up?


First:

PE level doesn't make material level drops, it makes manufacturing times drop. ME level affects the materials (ME = Material Efficiency)

2nd:

As for the Perfect part in the blueprint's show info, Perfect means Production Efficiency skill at level 5. Base values (aka your requirement vs perfect already takes into account the ME level of the blueprint).

The formula is right, and usually when doing maths you don't use English 101 but Maths 101:

Material Required ='Perfect' Value*(1+(0.05*(5-PE Level)))

Perfect value = 200

With Production efficiency skill untrained (0):

Material Required =200*(1+(0.05*(5-0))) = 200*(1+(0.05*5) = 200*(1+0.25) = 200*1.25 = 250 units (50 units is 25% of 200)

With Production efficiency skill at 5:

Material Required =200*(1+(0.05*(5-5))) = 200*(1+(0.05*0) = 200*(1+0) = 200*1 = 200 units

So each level of skill reduces waste with 5%

Lvl 0 = 25%
Lvl 1 = 20
Lvl 2 = 15
Lvl 3 = 10
Lvl 4 = 5
Lvl 5 = 0

Quod erat demonstrandum (Q.E.D.)

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Volkan Alkaid
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-05-24 01:48:30 UTC
Right Ill try this again :P.

I'm relatively new, so when I was saying PE Level, I was meaning my Production EfficiencyLevel which "Skill at efficiently using factories. 5% reduction per skill level to the material requirements needed for production." I didn't know PE meant something else.

What I'm saying is that the Materials that it says I need don't make sense with the 5% factor. My Production Efficiency Level is 1. Therefore my waste factor should be 20%. Therefore the 'You' value should be 20% more than the 'perfect' value.
Example, for a Rifter I need
Tritanium - You Value - 26681 (Perfect Value 22576)
Pyerite - You Value - 7188 (Perfect Value 6082)

So the perfect value divided by the you value should equal 1.2 representing a 20% waste factor.

But it isnt. For both values it's 1.18.
You might say it isn't much off, but why is it off at all.

It might have something to do with gameplay mechanic that I don't know about.
But I think it's more like something to do with my maths.
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-05-24 04:07:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
The base Tritanium required for a Rifter blueprint is 20,524. The figure you see listed in game as "perfect" already accounts for the blueprint's imperfection waste (the Material Efficiency research performed on the blueprint). With an unresearched blueprint this is 10% of the base cost, so 2,052 (rounded). Adding those two up with zero skill waste (Production Efficiency skill at level 5) gives your "perfect" number of 22,576.

Your skill waste however doesn't multiply with the blueprint imperfection waste, it adds up. Therefore your skill waste is 0.2 * 20,524 = 4,105 (again, rounded from 4,104.8). Note that it is the base number that is being multiplied.

Adding it all together we get 20,524 (base cost) + 2,052 (blueprint waste) + 4,105 (skill waste) = 26,681.

I *believe* that EVE rounds to the nearest integer, but I might be wrong on this. At worst the numbers will be one off.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-05-24 06:37:34 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
The base Tritanium required for a Rifter blueprint is 20,524. The figure you see listed in game as "perfect" already accounts for the blueprint's imperfection waste (the Material Efficiency research performed on the blueprint). With an unresearched blueprint this is 10% of the base cost, so 2,052 (rounded). Adding those two up with zero skill waste (Production Efficiency skill at level 5) gives your "perfect" number of 22,576.

Your skill waste however doesn't multiply with the blueprint imperfection waste, it adds up. Therefore your skill waste is 0.2 * 20,524 = 4,105 (again, rounded from 4,104.8). Note that it is the base number that is being multiplied.

Adding it all together we get 20,524 (base cost) + 2,052 (blueprint waste) + 4,105 (skill waste) = 26,681.

I *believe* that EVE rounds to the nearest integer, but I might be wrong on this. At worst the numbers will be one off.


This, like I said, the "Perfect" and "You" value take into consideration the ME level of the blueprint (aka quality).

ME = 0 takes more minerals to build then something with ME = 100

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Volkan Alkaid
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-05-24 14:10:02 UTC
Thanks guys. Both of you.

I didn't click on until I read

"Your skill waste however doesn't multiply with the blueprint imperfection waste, it adds up. "

That's what I was doing wrong. Thought the waste factor was "(Perfect x 1.2)x1.1" Rather than addition.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#9 - 2012-05-24 15:50:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
When you have Production Efficiency 5, you no longer see [Perfect] on BPO (no loss from incompetence).

Total Material = ROUND(Base Material * (1.25 + Base Waste / (1 + Material Level) - Production Efficiency Skill * 0.05))

So skill reduces the material by 25%.


Base amounts can be found from a database dump or
Base Waste = Waste shown on an unresearched BPO
Base Material = ROUND(Material amount shown on an unresearched BPO / (1 + Base Waste))

Perfect Material Level = FLOOR(Largest Material Count / ((1 + Base Waste) / (2 * Base Waste)))
for 10% base waste BPO: Perfect Material Level = Largest Material Count / 5.5 and drop the fraction (don't round)
for 5% base waste BPO: Perfect Material Level = Largest Material Count / 10.5 and drop the fraction (don't round)

Typically a material level of 20 or less is adequate, however some items like many small rigs don't require any research to be perfect, as they use low material counts with less than 0.5 units of waste.