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New dev blog: With Friends Like These... - New Ally System

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Homo Jesus
The LGBT Last Supper
#161 - 2012-05-21 13:12:39 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Hey guys

We're looking at ways to iterate on the system post release. Contract length and allies in mutual wars are pretty high on the list, as well as changes that will inevitably emergence once we see the system used. Once Inferno goes out it will be easier to start putting a date on some of these things.



Cool, I'm looking at ways of iterating on the confusing system your are going to release. I would put the date for your iteration around yesterday...or pull it and just release part 2 of the Dust wardec system...oh I mean Escaltion to Inferno...
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#162 - 2012-05-21 13:32:26 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Hey guys

We're looking at ways to iterate on the system post release. Contract length and allies in mutual wars are pretty high on the list, as well as changes that will inevitably emergence once we see the system used. Once Inferno goes out it will be easier to start putting a date on some of these things.


So now you plan to see how people uses the wardec system? Shocked

Couldn't you had done that six months ago, before you started figuring the wrong solutions to the wrong issues for the wrong reasons and against everybody's advice? What?
Reppyk
The Black Shell
#163 - 2012-05-21 13:45:46 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Hey guys

We're looking at ways to iterate on the system post release. Contract length and allies in mutual wars are pretty high on the list, as well as changes that will inevitably emergence once we see the system used. Once Inferno goes out it will be easier to start putting a date on some of these things.
That's cool but these 2 are not the important issues...

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !
Ravcharas
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#164 - 2012-05-21 13:53:16 UTC
Guys I wouldn't worry about it. The iterative development process have done wonders for the dominion era sov system.
CCP Soundwave
C C P
C C P Alliance
#165 - 2012-05-21 13:54:04 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Hey guys

We're looking at ways to iterate on the system post release. Contract length and allies in mutual wars are pretty high on the list, as well as changes that will inevitably emergence once we see the system used. Once Inferno goes out it will be easier to start putting a date on some of these things.


So now you plan to see how people uses the wardec system? Shocked

Couldn't you had done that six months ago, before you started figuring the wrong solutions to the wrong issues for the wrong reasons and against everybody's advice? What?


The new system.

We have a shortlist of stuff we'd like to iterate on and we'll meet with the CSM to hear theirs too.
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#166 - 2012-05-21 14:06:35 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Hey guys

We're looking at ways to iterate on the system post release. Contract length and allies in mutual wars are pretty high on the list, as well as changes that will inevitably emergence once we see the system used. Once Inferno goes out it will be easier to start putting a date on some of these things.


So now you plan to see how people uses the wardec system? Shocked

Couldn't you had done that six months ago, before you started figuring the wrong solutions to the wrong issues for the wrong reasons and against everybody's advice? What?


The new system.

We have a shortlist of stuff we'd like to iterate on and we'll meet with the CSM to hear theirs too.


Yeah CCP, why didn't you test the new system before you made the new system so you would know how people used the new system before there were a new system to test, so you could make a new system that people liked!

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Vegare
Bitslix
Lolsec Fockel
#167 - 2012-05-21 14:12:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Vegare
CCP, when you decided on the new wardec costs you followed the lines of 'having to pay for targets'.

Now you're giving free targets to everyone...


Edit:
Additionally, the new interface does not qualify as a 'marketplace' as you can not offer anything there (yet)!
CCP SoniClover wrote:
The mercenary marketplace term is a bit of a misnomer as it stands right now (and that term isn't used anywhere in the game itself).
http://www.eveonline.com/inferno/mercenary-marketplace/
Yeah, not ingame, but on your advertisement page :D
Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
#168 - 2012-05-21 14:57:41 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:


Regarding incentives to fight wars (whether as aggressor or defender), it is our belief that the main incentives should not be created by the war mechanic itself. The war mechanic is just a tool by which players can legally engage other players, but why they want to do so isn't handled by the war mechanic system itself (and shouldn't be). .....



And yet you put in scaled pricing system in a game where peoples actions are heavily influenced by economics?
Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
#169 - 2012-05-21 15:24:24 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
So defenders can bring in as many allies as they want for no cost other than the fee that the ally requests?

You realize that what this does is make it even less attractive for the Average Joe corp to declare war on people they have legitimate grievances with since they will be able to bring in an infinite number of allies and the attacker has no means to respond.

Rather than doing something to address the fact that wars are "underutilized" all this and the cost changes does is draw an even greater dividing line between people who do wars as their primary form of gameplay and everyone else in highsec by making starting a war so undesirable for anyone whose primary form of gameplay isn't wars that it will never be worth declaring war on someone who's done you wrong.

Post expansion war will be an even less viable option for 99% of highsec inhabitants than it is now. This expansion is a joke, and the advertisements that refer to it as "war fueled" are fraudulent.


Now I haven't been playing too many years, but along with the new fees and this allies system I can't decide if this may be the worst thought out game mechanic I've seen put in game (evidence: the war icon is a sword. A SWORD! in my internet spaceship game), or if the real design goals (protection for large alliance logistics/dec shields for certain crops) are so important yet repugnant to the larger EVE community, CCP can not actually state them publicly and instead just implements a system that pretty much kills of high sec wars for any mid level/small group and screws the mercenaries over to do it while acting like their not.
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#170 - 2012-05-21 16:17:05 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
We're looking at ways to iterate on the system post release. Contract length and allies in mutual wars are pretty high on the list

As a semi-random thought: if you are going to allow allies in mutual wars at all, you should allow them for both sides. That allows balanced escalation and could generate interesting stories.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
Gort Thud
Wandering Spartans
#171 - 2012-05-21 17:22:33 UTC
CCP's concept of incentives to fight wars - scaling war declaration cost with target size and allowing allies only on the defenders side.

It is ironic that these two mechanics are what the rest of the world would use as a disincentive to fight wars - it would appear that CCP have a number of separate teams at work here with different definitions of some key concepts such as "incentive" and "war" .

Without being able to clearly and unequivocally state what the primary goals you are intending to achieve are and what metrics are to be used to judged that success it is it is almost guaranteed that the detail design will not be fit for purpose. I feel that you guys need some clear and concise back-to-basics on goal design before you iterate yourself into a grave.

Gort
Pere Madeleine
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#172 - 2012-05-21 17:34:26 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Hey guys

We're looking at ways to iterate on the system post release. Contract length and allies in mutual wars are pretty high on the list, as well as changes that will inevitably emergence once we see the system used. Once Inferno goes out it will be easier to start putting a date on some of these things.


Most of the poor reaction you've received is not from people disappointed that it doesn't include certain things. The poor reaction has been because what it DOES include will make the game worse. Will your next iteration be to remove the bad changes inferno puts in?

By the way, "Calm down, we'll iterate" is not a satisfactory response to player fury. It wasn't satisfactory pre crucible, and it isn't now. Did crucible not teach you anything?
charlie ice
Doomheim
#173 - 2012-05-21 19:11:11 UTC
How did CCP let this get released without seeing some of the major problems that it will cause. This system is just going to open up a can of worms, maybe thats what they wanted.
Captain Thunk
Explode. Now. Please.
Alliance. Now. Please.
#174 - 2012-05-21 19:24:23 UTC
I don't think anyone is in doubt how much effort the dev team have put into this, the UIs and extra details look extremely good, but it just feels that many of the ideas behind the changes and the believed reasoning behind wars are remarkably out of touch with the people who are expected to use them, which is unfortunate for everyone.
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#175 - 2012-05-21 19:32:21 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Hey guys

We're looking at ways to iterate on the system post release. Contract length and allies in mutual wars are pretty high on the list, as well as changes that will inevitably emergence once we see the system used. Once Inferno goes out it will be easier to start putting a date on some of these things.
I'm not quite sure how you're going to 'iterate' out of this one, but good luck....

Nothing much to add beyond what Alek/McCreary have other than, good luck finding someone willing to take on a POS removal contract, 24 hours from now.

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#176 - 2012-05-21 19:44:04 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Hey guys

We're looking at ways to iterate on the system post release. Contract length and allies in mutual wars are pretty high on the list, as well as changes that will inevitably emergence once we see the system used. Once Inferno goes out it will be easier to start putting a date on some of these things.


So now you plan to see how people uses the wardec system? Shocked

Couldn't you had done that six months ago, before you started figuring the wrong solutions to the wrong issues for the wrong reasons and against everybody's advice? What?


The new system.

We have a shortlist of stuff we'd like to iterate on and we'll meet with the CSM to hear theirs too.


Sure? Well then, I suggest you to iterate this:

Quote:
Please, I have a question!

If i am in a miner corp and someone wardecs us solely to prevent us from playing the game, how exactly can we avoid being at war and keep playing w/o surrendering to blackmail or dismantling our corporation?

Thank you in advance! Smile


That was asked on March 29th, and as far as I know, nobody answered it yet.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#177 - 2012-05-21 20:23:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Vimsy Vortis
charlie ice wrote:
How did CCP let this get released without seeing some of the major problems that it will cause. This system is just going to open up a can of worms, maybe thats what they wanted.

Because like I've said over and over gain CCP literally do not care about releasing useful game mechanics that actually work, they care about releasing whatever arbitrary thing they decided on before it was even announced.

Once a senior individual at CCP has decided on an idea, regardless how unwanted by the players or bad for the game it is everyone else in the entire company puts their blinkers on and then follows the path of least resistance until the the next expansion totally ignoring everything the players say and minimizing the incoming criticism by releasing details as close to the launch date as possible so that they can hold their hands up and say "Sorry guys the expansion is next week". The objective isn't to release the content that the players want, it's to deviate as little from the original idea as possible while doing as little actual work as possible.

It is more important to the CCP game development staff to minimize conflict by agreeing with the origional concept and ignoring everything that disagrees with it than it is listen to what people who actually play the game say and deliver the product that their customers want.
Armed Maniac
Noticeably Insane Miners' League
#178 - 2012-05-21 20:56:25 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Hey guys

We're looking at ways to iterate on the system post release. Contract length and allies in mutual wars are pretty high on the list, as well as changes that will inevitably emergence once we see the system used. Once Inferno goes out it will be easier to start putting a date on some of these things.


So now you plan to see how people uses the wardec system? Shocked

Couldn't you had done that six months ago, before you started figuring the wrong solutions to the wrong issues for the wrong reasons and against everybody's advice? What?


The new system.

We have a shortlist of stuff we'd like to iterate on and we'll meet with the CSM to hear theirs too.


Sure? Well then, I suggest you to iterate this:

Quote:
Please, I have a question!

If i am in a miner corp and someone wardecs us solely to prevent us from playing the game, how exactly can we avoid being at war and keep playing w/o surrendering to blackmail or dismantling our corporation?

Thank you in advance! Smile


That was asked on March 29th, and as far as I know, nobody answered it yet.



Pick up some allies on the merc market. From what I have gathered there will be a ton of corps on there willing to work for free. If not free, then they will have to pay, but the option is still the same.
Endeavour Starfleet
#179 - 2012-05-21 22:04:50 UTC
Remember CCP the reason you are seeing so much BS about your new system on this topic is because these idiots are watching their favorite pastime of griefing and basically forcing other players out of their groups or out of EVE for a week, fall apart before their very eyes.


Some of the points are good. Mutual war means both sides get allies. Sounds fair to me.

I also think that you should declare using mutual to trap allies into a war is an exploit for now and allow GM action on those who do until a proper fix is in place.

Most of what else is just people whining about having to face uncertainty and the blob for once. Please continue to allow allies to join the defense in any number for no cost.
Gabriel Karade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#180 - 2012-05-21 22:47:26 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Remember CCP the reason you are seeing so much BS about your new system on this topic is because these idiots are watching their favorite pastime of griefing and basically forcing other players out of their groups or out of EVE for a week, fall apart before their very eyes.


Some of the points are good. Mutual war means both sides get allies. Sounds fair to me.

I also think that you should declare using mutual to trap allies into a war is an exploit for now and allow GM action on those who do until a proper fix is in place.

Most of what else is just people whining about having to face uncertainty and the blob for once. Please continue to allow allies to join the defense in any number for no cost.
Good sir, this has nothing to do with 'griefing idiots', rather legitimate concerns for a legitimate [mercenary] profession and the services rendered.

For info, High sec work is but one facet of what we do.

War Machine: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=386293