Jita Park Speakers Corner

So for the really new players who make all their money off of level 1 2 and 3 missions, who aren't pimped out enough to get into incursions.......

We might want to lower the material costs of T1 frigates, destroyers, and cruisers. Nothing that would really effect an established player. But just enough that a noob grinding level 2 missions can get his first tristian or vexor.

Doubling ship prices by kicking out the supply of minerals from drone poo and reprocessing is a moderate annoyance to established players. But it can be a game destroying kick in the head to newer players (who might be more likely to unsub)

If you don't believe me, go roll up a new alt on one of your two other character slots. Don't give it any cash at all. And try to make enough money to buy your very first cruiser.

While I think that the current mechanic should be left in (as much as is feasible) for people that find it ~relaxing~, the rest of what you say is pretty much exactly how I feel about it.

Yeah, I meant new interesting types of mining as well as the 'boring' kind - much like belt ratting still existed after the introduction of anomalies, if people really want to carry on with classic belt mining it shouldn't be taken away.

Ships

Rorqual – why is it that to get bonuses by the biggest and best mining support ship in the game, we need to use it in siege mode to get said bonuses? An orca provides 5% bonus by doing nothing yet to get any bonus from the Rorqual you need to burn heavy water and put it in siege. Given that this ship costs 2billion isk, that’s kind of a kick in the face when you think about it. Suggest changing the bonus to 5% for all gang links when not in siege mode and 10% when in siege. This gets you orca bonuses without needing to buy an orca or go into siege. Finally, can we put minerals in the ore hanger? Pretty please?

Hulk – As said above, there is no need to tank a hulk in high sec (outside of hulkageddon, which probably still won’t matter overall depending on the number of gankers). In 0.0 you need to sacrifice your yield for additional tank to solo mine (yeah, I know it’s a MMO but sometimes you want to just mine and no one is on) either requiring a big tank or an alt. Both alternatives are not helpful to getting new players to null sec.

Solution is either to give the Hulk more mid/low slots or make a new mining ship. Upgrading the hulk won’t solve the problem because another low slot just allows another MLU for high-sec ships to have fun with.

Making a new mining ship is a possibility (which I know people hate but hear me out). The ship would have say, 4 strips, increased power grid, increased cpu and allow for tank+ max yield. Think several mids, 3 rig slots, and say 3 lows. Limit the ship to low/null sec and add limited jump drive capability (ie on the range of a black ops). Make it a capital mining ship that requires Capital mining ships and Exhumers 5 to use. On bonuses, perhaps allow the same as the hulk. This addresses several issues, 1 – increased yield in null sec for building ships to blow up, 2 – increased risk but increased reward (see mining above), 3 - better incentive to go to null sec and give a goal for new players that want to go with capital mining (you can’t really mine in a rorq), 4 – allows high sec to do the same thing it’s doing now, 5 – training time requirement makes it not a ship that just anyone will get easily – it’s the mining ship to have.

Covetor – Please for the love of all that is good and true, can you set the Astrogeology 5 requirement to fly this ship to 4??? Right now for new players, the progression is mine in a frig…move to an Osprey or Scythe…yay Retriever!...wait, WTF? I have to train how long to fly the next one and then after that it’s just a few hours to fly a hulk? LAME! Seriously, really a simple change that makes mining much more bearable for new players and doesn’t require everyone to basically train for a hulk to use – please do it!

Mining Rigs - other than mining drone rigs (which are hard to fit already for little bonus) there are none. Suggest adding yield, range, cap, and/or others and decrease penalty/increase bonus m3 for drone rigs.

T2 Production

I for one did a bunch of T2 in empire. Made a ton of isk. Even made a program to make more isk from T2 (see sig). So I have some experience in this area and I feel there are several places for improvement.

First – Please explain this: "We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec." - CCP Soundwave https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1230077#post1230077

What does he mean? I could read this several ways. One way would be that they want to move ALL T2 production to low and zero-sec. That is going to kill the market. Simply KILL it. There are so many moving parts to T2 production that breaking up market hubs will do nothing but make it harder to do and much more expensive. You said it in this thread – someone has to build the ships. Moving it all to null/low isn’t going to make that happen. You might want it to happen but the reality of the game is that industry people like doing what they do and honestly, they might not even want to go to null sec.

Another way to read that is that you want to ALLOW T2 to be MUCH (emphasis mine) easier in null and low sec. On that I totally agree. One thing I hate right now is that I can’t do invention in null sec with the ease I could in high sec. Wait, no….can’t really do it at *all* in null sec. You have to ship out data cores to invent…ok, not huge but ok. Then you have to get moon mats. Well some say, that’s where they come from silly! Have you ever reacted anything? Oh dear god it’s horrible (see above) and to make an item that takes one T2 component, you need several reactions just to one! For example, T2 scourge missiles (hugely popular item) require a graviton pulse generator, which takes 3 advanced materials. Those 3 are made with 8 intermediate materials. Those 8 require – 2 to 3 additional base moon materials each. So you can potentially be looking at about 20 different items you need to moon mine for just to make one item. Now look at making manticores. Yeah, it’s a pain. This is why Jita is so important to T2 production and why something needs to be done for null sec T2 production. Honestly, I’m not sure what. Hell, maybe just throw in some NPC delivery/courier service for T2 components only and call it good.

But in the end, T2 production in null/low sec = good thing, just don’t kill empire doing it.

Second issue with T2, yeah…I’m going to say it, T2 BPOs. I pretty much don’t have a huge issue with them but they are an issue. They exist and getting rid of them now doesn’t make any sense - I get it. Also, the number of items made with these BPOs are in markets that don’t really have too much demand (command ships for instance). But it’s when comparing them to invention that the inequality comes in. QQ noob you say? Well ok, but on the 21st you are moving datacores to the FW store all because you have a concern about this "passive income" stream. How does this not apply to T2 BPOs? Perhaps you haven’t experienced the pain of invention but the difference between those that have and those that do not is not insignificant. Case in point, the negative ME/PE on invented items really doesn’t make much sense. For instance, a Hulk BPC, 1 run costs about 17mil to invent. So yeah, a T2 BPO holder is making out on that. But compare a -4 ME copy to a 0 ME BPO and you are looking at ~50mil profit difference. That’s with no research at all. Say the owner spends the time to get the BPO to 5. Now it’s ~60mil (Over that it’s diminishing returns). Add to that the invention cost and you are looking at over 75mil in profit. So that’s really the issue here.

Solution: Add a formula that increases the ME/PE of the invented blueprint based on the ME/PE of the BPC. Scrapyard Bob suggested the following formula: T2 ME = Sqrt(T1 ME) – 5. So with a ME 100 BPC: Sqrt(ME 100) = 10, subtract 5 and you'd end up with a T2 BPC of ME 5. This is one idea, but I think it’s on the right track. This way the research matters for invention (right now it does not really outside of the T1 item if needed) and the T2 BPO’s can stay in game, still have the advantages they enjoy now (no datacores, no invention, clicky clicky maky isky) but the gap between those that own T2 BPOs and inventors won’t be as large.

T1 Copies – This is a huge bottleneck for T2 production. We don’t have access to enough copy slots in empire and this almost requires people to use POSs and adds its own problems. I guess increasing slots just allows more people to que with alts (guilty!) but something needs to be done. The “research POS” really only exists to do copies (and yes research but after it's done, they are done). That seems like an awful waste of time and effort.

R.A.M. use – Right now the R.A.M. items are just illogical…seriously, defying logic. You want to make 10 T2 items, you need 10 R.A.M.s. But hey, they only take 5% damage per run, shouldn’t I just need 1? Nope, you need 10 and you’ll like it! I just don’t get it. Imagine someone trying to do production at a POS that needs tons of these (and can’t repair them). Say you need 100 but only damage 10? How does that make any sense?

Solutions: One solution is to dump them all together. Problem solved. Yes, they have some sort of immersion/storyline factor but honestly, I’m not sure they will be missed. Another solution is to allow them to stack based on damage needed. Example above, if it takes 5% damage each run and you want to run 20 runs, then you need 1 R.A.M.


That’s all I have for now. Yes, all. I’m sure I have more, but I hope that gives you some insight into the industry world from someone who does a lot of it and contributes to your CSM meeting. Thanks for reading!

- Give an incentive to mine at the keyboard, beyond 'I might get ganked'.
- More disincentives to suicide ganking; it's cheap cowardly pvp.
- Continue to remove bots. I like the new mineral prices.
- Add a 'units sold in the last X units of time' function in the market, so it's easier to find what to make.

Frankly there are PLENTY of ideas up on these forums already.

• Put t2 minerals into 0.0 - as a balance feature as well as allowing mining corps obvious game progression, CONSIDER putting high end minerals in low-sec.


• Fix Spodzilla in the grav sites in 0.0. If a PVP player goes to make some money
1) he doesn't need a scan probe launcher to find a site he just hits his scan button.

By comparison miners need to scan down a grav site and then... IF they can find one...

2) The PVPer can complete the site ON HIS OWN IN MINUTES.

By comparison it takes a group of 10 guys at least a day minimum to mine the site out and most of that is WASTED EFFORT because of spodzilla in the belt - no belt will respawn until the old one is gone.
As a result people cherry pick and it makes the entire situation useless for others who wish to mine as a social or money making venture because they then have to mine spodumain for 3 days.


• Fix Industrial queueing for research, invention and production. There has to be a better way than logging on once every 2 hours to change jobs. Batches please.


• Put some in-game tools in place to allow mining corps to PAY THEIR MINERS AUTOMATICALLY - If I want to buy trit from my miners at -10% jita price, I should be able to set those prices and accept ore AUTOMATICALLY.

We should not be spending HOURS dealing with contracts and working out each contract and seeing if it's accurate or not. Throw the ore into a specified hangar, pay the miner from a specified wallet. Deal done. Why is this so hard?


• Consider putting corp contracts and mining payouts in place in your new modular POS's - some people don't HAVE stations to do this in - they have a POS and a Rorqual.


• Give us a ******* break <- and i'm dead serious on this idea. You don't give a ******* thought to what happens to industry every time you make a change to the game.
POS Fuel prices have almost doubled since PI came in thereby increasing the income gap between people that have and have not got t2 bpo's.
T3 BC's ganking in empire without any HP buffs to transports or freighters.

Some peoples' lives in-game are made a living hell every time you do this ****. (No I have not been ganked but it IS common sense).


• T2 BPO's - Seriously, you guys are full of so much **** on this issue.

You are complete hypocrits when you change datacores because you're worried about passive income and you got rid of SHUTTLES, ******* SHUTTLES - because they were creating an "artificial tritanium price ceiling". Yet, we don't see the problem with a bunch of objects in the game that just MAGICALLY MAKE **** EVERYONE ELSE HAS TO PAY FOR.

Everyone knows why you ignore this issue. Players have spent RL money to buy in-game items and to have those then taken away would be a terrible marketing strategy. What will the MMO Bloggers say?!?

However, as this is a FAR WORSE problem than any shuttle that was ever sold by an NPC, you may as well just bite the god damn bullet and give the bad news. Sooner rather than later would be better ALL AROUND.

If you want to destroy the items and give those players fair MARKET VALUE for the bpo's in question - so be it. Solve the problem. Giving us this "what problem?" line is utter nonesense and anyone with half a brain knows it.

Give me a break ... once again.


• Perhaps the odd industry ship that's not just used to pick up pieces (salvage ships) left after PVPers are finished shooting stuff is called for occasionally - only going to show how little you think about this side of the game CCP.

I'd like to thank the CSM for putting this thread up. It shows things ARE being done. It was entirely frustrating watching mittani appease industry with drone regions nerfs and saying "that will fix mining" which was entirely untrue.

I'm not sure if he was just ignorant or completely understood he was once again killing industry, but I'm glad of the change and the chance for CSM to push things in this direction a little.

I posted my ideas on my blog, so I'll just summarize here and assume that people who want the details can click the link.

• Merge Mining Barge and ORE Industrial skills. Mining barges are industrial ships made by ORE, right?
• Make hull repair modules not-worthless. In fact, make them a bit better than armor reps, since you'll be in hull by the time you turn them on.
• Redo the size (in m3) of Strips and mining crystals to something sane and consistent.
• Introduce new modules, new drones, and new anchorable structures to give players more tools and options
• Make the mining barges less ****, and make them all useful. The Procurer can be the fast and nimble one that mines quickly; the Covetor the big, tough, slow one that can park in a belt and not move; and the Retriever can be the middling one, slower than the Procurer but not as tough as the Covetor.

The ores in lowsec need a change to make them more profitable. So maybe adjust the mineral mix of lowsec ores might be a solution.

Remove T2 BPOs. They are just to powerful and keep in mind that CCP made some really bad moves when they were introduced.

Keep track of the changes to the acquire datacores and adjust the system if needed.

The production and science related UIs could use some love to lower the amounts of clicks to get something runing.

It's related to a T20 years ago and a certain lottery. So CCP was involved long, long ago.

BPOs can be researched to use less recources and time. The invention system can do similar things with specific items which are far more expensive than the inital research on a BPO in the long run.

So remove the T2 BPOs or skip invention and sell the T2 BPOs by NPC to everyone who wants them. Could be a nice ISK sink.