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Back to basics risk vs reward

Author
Mark Androcius
#1 - 2012-05-16 12:08:05 UTC
The basic idea EVE has always had ( or at least tried to have ), was that the more risk you take, the better the reward.

This mechanic though, is heavily broken ( in my view at least ) i mean, a miner in high sec space, doesn't make much less isk then a miner in low or null ( there is a difference, but not all that much really ).

Now, what i propose is the following:

Reduce the amount of DPS per level of sec space, when targeting another player ( unless they are at war ).
This would make Destroyers ganking Hulks almost impossible ( unless you have more then 1 ganker of course ).

Of course, this would make high sec space a haven for miners and we don't want that either.
So to combat this, i also propose to reduce mining yield, based on system security.
This would make sure that mining in a Hulk in 1.0 sec, would be hella dumb, but also very safe.

Here are some numbers that might work:

1.0 sec space - DPS is 40% vs another player, only 20% normal mining Yield.
0.9 sec space - DPS is 50% vs another player, only 30% normal mining Yield.
0.8 sec space - DPS is 50% vs another player, only 40% normal mining Yield.
0.7 sec space - DPS is 60% vs another player, only 50% normal mining Yield.
0.6 sec space - DPS is 60% vs another player, only 60% normal mining Yield.
0.5 sec space - DPS is 70% vs another player, only 70% normal mining Yield.
Low sec space - DPS is 80% vs another player, only 90% normal mining Yield.
Null sec space - DPS is 100% vs another player, mining yield is 100%.

Of course, these numbers are debatable.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#2 - 2012-05-16 12:20:46 UTC
You forgot that no place is safe in Eve. Hisec is not safer because magic is making bullets fly slower and hit not with full power, it is safer because you have Concord policing those systems. If you want magic you should already know where to go to...

Invalid signature format

Mark Androcius
#3 - 2012-05-16 12:23:40 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
You forgot that no place is safe in Eve. Hisec is not safer because magic is making bullets fly slower and hit not with full power, it is safer because you have Concord policing those systems. If you want magic you should already know where to go to...


For f sake.... you're not even trying to understand what i am saying.
A destroyer will kill a "normal" Hulk in high sec, before Concord arrives, with this system it won't, it would need friends to help him in order to do that.
Im Super Gay
Investtan Inc.
The Republic.
#4 - 2012-05-16 12:23:51 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
You forgot that no place is safe in Eve. Hisec is not safer because magic is making bullets fly slower and hit not with full power, it is safer because you have Concord policing those systems. If you want magic you should already know where to go to...

This, I don't want any of that harry potter gay wizardry in my eve.
Mark Androcius
#5 - 2012-05-16 12:31:20 UTC
Im Super Gay wrote:
This, I don't want any of that harry potter gay wizardry in my eve.


I see, you don't like "fair" much, ok, i can get that, seeing it in your perspective.

a 1.5 million fully fitted Destroyer ganking a 200 million isk Hulk is not fair, no matter how you put it.
Being able to make millions of isk, in a system where you can't get ganked is also not fair.

This fixes both, you want to be reasonable safe, stay in a space where you make way to little isk, you want to make more isk, you go to a system where you CAN get ganked pretty easily.
Colonel Xaven
Perkone
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-05-16 12:41:52 UTC
Actually I like the idea pretty much.

The safer you life, the lower your income.
No safety means 100% income.

This is in line with suggestions like "move higher missions for mission runners into lower sec systems".

Sure, it's more a first idea and must be extrapolated on mission runners, maybe production etc. and could collide with income with being a merc etc., but it's a good direction at the first view.

www.facebook.com/RazorAlliance

Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#7 - 2012-05-16 12:49:55 UTC
Mark Androcius wrote:
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
You forgot that no place is safe in Eve. Hisec is not safer because magic is making bullets fly slower and hit not with full power, it is safer because you have Concord policing those systems. If you want magic you should already know where to go to...


For f sake.... you're not even trying to understand what i am saying.
A destroyer will kill a "normal" Hulk in high sec, before Concord arrives, with this system it won't, it would need friends to help him in order to do that.


Basically you say that military ship designed for destroying other military ships equal or lower in terms of ship class shouldn't be able to f*ck up mining machinery platform because some miraculously working force will make Eve's space water more dense hence lowering bullets' dmg? Oh I know, maybe Concord just spill more salt in those waters or sth? Nah, that would affect also ships mobility.

Invalid signature format

Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#8 - 2012-05-16 13:30:20 UTC
An interesting idea, but as you can probably guess by the response this isn't the right game for it.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs

Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-05-16 13:54:34 UTC
Mark Androcius wrote:
Im Super Gay wrote:
This, I don't want any of that harry potter gay wizardry in my eve.


I see, you don't like "fair" much, ok, i can get that, seeing it in your perspective.

a 1.5 million fully fitted Destroyer ganking a 200 million isk Hulk is not fair, no matter how you put it.
Being able to make millions of isk, in a system where you can't get ganked is also not fair.

This fixes both, you want to be reasonable safe, stay in a space where you make way to little isk, you want to make more isk, you go to a system where you CAN get ganked pretty easily.


No its not fair but life frequently isn't. The answer is not messing with the physics of space its buffing the hulk to give it a reasonable chance of survival. If they don't want to do that then the answer is not to use one outside of null-sec where they are of course reasonably safe from being ganked due to the bettter intelligence on possible threats. Net effect, a buff to nullsec and botting which seems to be the way everything is geared to go anyway. I don't like it anymore than you but hey, I still haven't found a game I like better.
DitchDigger
Hibi Proletariat
#10 - 2012-05-16 14:44:15 UTC
Your basic premise is valid but your proposed solution seems a bit arbitrary and would require a whole new set of mechanics.

Perhaps a better solution would be to do more to differentiate what can be mined in various levels of security.

Security 1.0 Nothing but veldspar
.9 - .8 Veldspar, Concentrated Veldspar, Dense Veldspar
.7 - .6 Veldspar, Pyroxeres, Plagioclase, Scordite, etc, including +5 and +10 derivatives.
.5 Veldspap, Pyrox, Plagioclase, Scordite, Kernite, Omber, etc.

This would solve the problem without introducing any new mechanics.
Easthir Ravin
Easy Co.
#11 - 2012-05-16 15:02:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Easthir Ravin
Mark Androcius wrote:
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
You forgot that no place is safe in Eve. Hisec is not safer because magic is making bullets fly slower and hit not with full power, it is safer because you have Concord policing those systems. If you want magic you should already know where to go to...


For f sake.... you're not even trying to understand what i am saying.
A destroyer will kill a "normal" Hulk in high sec, before Concord arrives, with this system it won't, it would need friends to help him in order to do that.



Greetings

Once again its not about making the game better. It's all about how do I prevent others from playing in the sand the way they want to, so I can play the way I want to.

Also to correct a fallacy. I have heard the argument that a destroyer should not be able to kill a Hulk, as it relates to price. This is an invalid argument, as it happens all the time in warfare. Example: the airplane and the Exocet missile are vastly less expensive than the ship and crew they are designed to sink. Also they do it from range and in most cases without warning. (sound familiar?)

All I ask is that CCP stop allowing the same old re-rapped argument for changing a legitimate game mechanic into every single freaking forum. I swear this horse has been dead for a long time.

Now a game mechanic that I would not mind seeing is the ability to target ships with mining lasers with some form of thermal damage (not a crap tonne as hull plating already is a type of heat sink, but enough to shoo a pesky ship off) See I am not a total a-hole. I provide a logical solution to a mechanic that makes sense, not magic-ing DPS away.

vr
East

IN THE IMORTAL WORDS OF SOCRATES:  " I drank WHAT?!"

mxzf
Shovel Bros
#12 - 2012-05-16 15:11:58 UTC
Mark Androcius wrote:
Im Super Gay wrote:
This, I don't want any of that harry potter gay wizardry in my eve.


I see, you don't like "fair" much, ok, i can get that, seeing it in your perspective.

a 1.5 million fully fitted Destroyer ganking a 200 million isk Hulk is not fair, no matter how you put it.
Being able to make millions of isk, in a system where you can't get ganked is also not fair.

This fixes both, you want to be reasonable safe, stay in a space where you make way to little isk, you want to make more isk, you go to a system where you CAN get ganked pretty easily.


I'm not sure you understand how combat works. A fight is only as 'fair' as you can stack it in your favor. Just like real life, the onus is on you to make the fight go in your favor. I do agree that the is an issue with ganking at the present, but the issue is that miners somehow seem to believe that they deserve to be safer than other people.

Add to that that it just doesn't make sense. Ship cost isn't tied to the EHP of the thing, just to how effective the hull is at its role. The Hulk is outstanding at its role, mining, it shouldn't be expected to fit a large tank. If you need to tank a Hulk to withstand more than a few belt rats, you're misusing it, since it's not a combat ship.

Furthermore, there are a couple ways to avoid getting ganked in a Hulk that are quite simple and perfectly reasonable:
A. Don't fly a Hulk, especially during Hulkageddon
A1. Covetors get ~80-90% the yield of a Hulk and cost almost nothing and are insurable
A2. A Rokh can get almost the same yield of a Covie, while having ~50-60k EHP

B. Stop mining in crowded systems. There are tons of systems out there that gankers don't even look at

C. Pay attention to your screen and simply warp away if a suspicious char warps into your belt

D. Actually fit a bit of a tank to the thing, the Hulk can get enough tank to defend against a single ganker. Yes, there is a yield tradeoff, but Eve == tradeoffs, so of course there is a tradeoff.
Stigman Zuwadza
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-05-16 15:25:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Stigman Zuwadza
I guess in the grand scheme of things if CCP want to discourage some activities in hisec, slashing income will help.

The suggestion to affect DPS and other attributes already exists in wormholes, I can't see a reason why that couldn't be rolled out to hisec in some fashion. <--- just saying, not actually supporting the idea. Blink

It's broken and it's been broken for a long time and it'll be broken for some time to come.

Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#14 - 2012-05-16 15:54:24 UTC
I admire your motives and goals, but I think this is too artificial a solution, not to mention that fact that it would impact PvP quite heavily. Personally I would prefer if CCP just buffed low sec/null, or nerfed high sec, but that would probably be very unpopular.

Altering DPS means you would now need more ships to break a maelstrom's tank, kill something before it gets back to gate or alpha through enemy logistic's reps. If only for these reasons, this is a bad proposal.

Given the options I approve of CCP's current strategy, which seems to be to reintroduce sand box style game play to high sec by fixing war mechanics. That is assuming the changes concerning corp hopping make it to the live server.

Now all they need to do is introduce stricter penalties for being in an NPC corp, currently NPC corp alts suffer no ill effects whilst hauling or mining. This renders suicide ganking the only viable method for attacking them, and IMHO suicide ganking is a terrible and stupid game mechanic.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

Wolodymyr
Breaking Ambitions
#15 - 2012-05-16 18:31:26 UTC
Mark Androcius wrote:
a miner in high sec space, doesn't make much less isk then a miner in low or null

OK the thread is off to a good start, maybe we are going to talk about putting more unique resources in lowsec or w-space. So that the market value is wholly dependent on how risky it is to mine out in that space. Or he could start going on about a wholesale nerf of highsec space.

Mark Androcius wrote:
Reduce the amount of DPS per level of sec space, when targeting another player ( unless they are at war ). This would make Destroyers ganking Hulks almost impossible ( unless you have more then 1 ganker of course ).

Or he could propose something completely counter intuitive that does the opposite of what we were just talking about, like making miners invincible in highsec, or something else silly.

Mark Androcius wrote:
Of course, this would make high sec space a haven for miners and we don't want that either.
So to combat this, i also propose to reduce mining yield, based on system security.

But don't worry guys his bizarre idea that could break the game is counter balanced by another bizarre idea that could break the game.

I honestly think PoCo based sov is a good idea https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1417544

Loius Woo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2012-05-16 19:44:50 UTC
Any artificial magic game mechanic that has a concrete impact in one way and one way only (magic DPS reduction) it is game breaking.

Concord killing you for killing a defenseless hulk is plenty of a disincentive.

Think about how bad it would be if that were lifted? People might pop you just for the lolz....not just the douche bags, everyone.

Your idea is a very very bad one.

You should restate your problem as:
"I don't think that people should be able to gank in high sec and so I propose the following"

Making it seem like it is a risk vs reward thing is pretty lame.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#17 - 2012-05-16 20:26:09 UTC
Easthir Ravin wrote:
Also to correct a fallacy. I have heard the argument that a destroyer should not be able to kill a Hulk, as it relates to price. This is an invalid argument, as it happens all the time in warfare. Example: the airplane and the Exocet missile are vastly less expensive than the ship and crew they are designed to sink. Also they do it from range and in most cases without warning. (sound familiar?)

I had to crush this one, regardless of whether I agreed overall.

For reference, lets say they used a good plane, like an F-22. According to the defense department for one year, they spent 64.5 billion, to purchase 184 of these. Average unit cost: 350 million.
Exocet missiles, the air to ship type: anywhere from 500 thousand to over a million each, depending on who you ask.

Supertanker: top of the line, biggest thing that carries oil: top price is estimated at 120 million.

Just for reference detail: Aircraft carrier, Nimitz class 4.5 billion. (Most recent launched George H.W. Bush in 2006, commissioned in 2009)

Easthir Ravin wrote:
All I ask is that CCP stop allowing the same old re-rapped argument for changing a legitimate game mechanic into every single freaking forum. I swear this horse has been dead for a long time.

Now a game mechanic that I would not mind seeing is the ability to target ships with mining lasers with some form of thermal damage (not a crap tonne as hull plating already is a type of heat sink, but enough to shoo a pesky ship off) See I am not a total a-hole. I provide a logical solution to a mechanic that makes sense, not magic-ing DPS away.

vr
East

Having mining ships able to fight back like that does make sense.

Fitting a realistic tank makes even more sense, but is impaired by lousy CPU and Powergrid. Seriously, at what point does industrial use equate to low power capacity?
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#18 - 2012-05-16 21:37:04 UTC
Mark Androcius wrote:
Im Super Gay wrote:
This, I don't want any of that harry potter gay wizardry in my eve.


I see, you don't like "fair" much, ok, i can get that, seeing it in your perspective.

a 1.5 million fully fitted Destroyer ganking a 200 million isk Hulk is not fair, no matter how you put it.
Being able to make millions of isk, in a system where you can't get ganked is also not fair.

This fixes both, you want to be reasonable safe, stay in a space where you make way to little isk, you want to make more isk, you go to a system where you CAN get ganked pretty easily.



a 200 mil HIC tackling a hundred billion ISK titan is not fair.

A tornado gang taking down a freighter full of tech worth ten times their ships in lowsec isn't fair

A stealth bomber worth 20mil killing a straggler at the tail end of a BS fleet worth 300mil isn't fair

A million isk rifter killing a two hundred mil BS isn't fair.

Do I need to go on, or are you still going to argue that cost is somehow relevant to ANY of this? Why, exactly, should an industrial ship be able to stand up to dedicated combat ships?

As an aside, how would you even explain something like this, lore wise? Logically it should apply to rats and war targets too.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#19 - 2012-05-16 22:30:53 UTC

Also, a hulk can EASILY be tanked to survive a single destroyer attack. It can be tanked enough to survive 3x destroyers, or even a tier 3 BC attacking it.... The trick is, you have to actually fit a tank on it....

Read this on How to Tank a Hulk

A hulk with mining lasers, cargo expanders, and no tank is cannon fodder, especially when you put it into 0.5 space. Why is it unfair for a dessie to come along and destroy such a lol-fit hulk?
Loius Woo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2012-05-17 00:18:29 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
[quote=Easthir Ravin]
For reference, lets say they used a good plane, like an F-22. According to the defense department for one year, they spent 64.5 billion, to purchase 184 of these. Average unit cost: 350 million.
Exocet missiles, the air to ship type: anywhere from 500 thousand to over a million each, depending on who you ask.

Supertanker: top of the line, biggest thing that carries oil: top price is estimated at 120 million.



Not to go too far off the topic with this but,

You picked the MOST expensive jet aircraft in the United States Arsenal.

It would be better to pick something like an old F-14 that we sold off or something for this example.

Either way, as has been stated, cost of ship has ZEROF^CKSGIVEN to do with fairness...

And Fairness has even less to do with EVE.

So, the OPs argument that cost somehow denotes survivability is pudu.
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