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I am not a physicist, friction in space?

Author
Nate Nichols
GWA Corp
#1 - 2012-05-14 05:21:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Nate Nichols
But I do understand some basic principles of space.

So here are my questions/complaints:


1. Things tend to stay in motion until acted on by an external force. If I'm not being webed, why can't I hit my AB, hit x velocity, and then turn off my AB and remain at x velocity, thus saving cap? What the hell is slowing me down? Is there friction in new eden space.....?

2. Same general idea of question 1. If I hit a wreck with a tractor beam and bring it towards me, shouldn't I be able to tractor it for just a sec, then turn it off, and have that object continue to fly towards my ship until it bounces off my hull? Assuming I don't move and it continues to fly towards my location. Is there friction in new eden space.....?

3. I could write 3 paragraphs about deceleration and how that works, but whatever.

As a hopeless sci fi nerd, these things bug me.

Why does "space" seem to have friction? What possible forces are acting on myself and these various objects?
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2012-05-14 05:28:17 UTC
Eve is space as it is underwater Big smile

Also notice how a ship has to bank to turn

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny

Nate Nichols
GWA Corp
#3 - 2012-05-14 05:43:51 UTC
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:
Eve is space as it is underwater Big smile

Also notice how a ship has to bank to turn



I thought we were in space?
Pris Du'Lac
Perkone
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-05-14 06:09:09 UTC
Hi,
This is my take on your points.

1. Yes, But if you were to develop space ships you would probably be looking at people that never flown or "drove" in space so you have to make the controls similar to what they are used to driving and flying with gravity. So they programd the flight computer to compensate with thrust in oppisition to slow you down.

2. Cant explain that, but every sci fi movie with a tractor beam they kept it on till whatever was in there cargo hold.

3. See 1.


also Gravity could be that possible force!

Pris

I'd rather have a bottle in fornt of me,  Than a frontal lobotomy.

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#5 - 2012-05-14 06:10:07 UTC
Why does EVE have "friction in space"?

Plausible reasons:
- it makes gameplay easier for your average layman
- it scales better with large groups of objects/players
- at the time EVE was created it was probably a very good idea (or even "state of the art")... now with so much coding on top of this legacy physics engine (a.k.a. "Destiny") it just isn't very feasible to alter it in such a fundamental way without breaking more stuff in the process and spending months cleaning it up (the DEVs have admitted to not enjoying tinkering with "Destiny").

lolRP reasons:
- New Eden is a relatively dense star cluster and might be full of gravity wells, radiation, or somesuch that adversely affects the natural laws of physics.
- The warp cores in all ships produces a "drag effect" on both the ships and all surrounding objects in space.
Pris Du'Lac
Perkone
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-05-14 06:24:07 UTC
Are you asking on a game mechanic or a lore perspective?

I'd rather have a bottle in fornt of me,  Than a frontal lobotomy.

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#7 - 2012-05-14 06:42:01 UTC
Lorewise, it's because ships featuring warp drives "drag" against spacetime... or something. This supposedly also explains why drones are stupid fast or something.

Mechanicwise, it's because that's the way they wrote it first, for whatever reason.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)

Sin Pew
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2012-05-14 07:37:28 UTC
Also, it's not a space simulator.

[i]"haiku are easy, But sometimes they don't make sense, Refrigerator."[/i]

Homo Jesus
The LGBT Last Supper
#9 - 2012-05-14 21:27:31 UTC
Try Jumpgate classic if it's still around. Just getting through a gate or docking without crashing is a challenge with those physics.
Lost Greybeard
Drunken Yordles
#10 - 2012-05-15 00:48:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Lost Greybeard
ShahFluffers wrote:

- The warp cores in all ships produces a "drag effect" on both the ships and all surrounding objects in space.


You have to go a little beyond that to explain ship warp cores in the first place since they zip you around solar systems faster than the speed of light and prevent you from colliding with things along your path.

Generally my preferred explanation is that the drive bypasses the usual mechanisms of acceleration to instead lock you into a given local inertial reference frame, and a big shock of energy alters the reference frame, basically pulling on everything with mass in the star system in order to slingshot you around at arbitrarily high speeds without liquefying your crew. Upside: go as fast as you want with no accelleration effects, especially the one where you revert to pure energy when you hit c or hit a planet and plow the whole damned thing up due to kinetic energy. Downside: when you're _not_ dumping energy into it (or accellerating some other way via base drives or ABs) you'll stabilize back into the local inertial reference frame, meaning you'll float by nearby planets/moons or sit at a basically fixed position relative to the sun and nearest celestials.


Of course, the out-of-character reason you can't accellerate infinitely is that combat would be completely impossible for a human mind to follow, which makes things kinda difficult when you're trying to get humans to play your game.

(Bonus: this explains why ships have a shared z-axis in space, too, and even explains banking to some degree.)
(Edit: double bonus: also explains why ship wrecks and containers stop moving if you aren't applying force, same tech.)
Trollin
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-05-15 04:02:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Trollin
hows this for mind blown

nothing is in orbit, every orbital in each system room , is perfectly stationary Shocked

it isnt a space game other than the painting on the walls of the rooms.

its a game of inventory management / chess with space type weapons..

yeah and firing artillery in space produces no recoil, just ask the Winmatar

We are our own worst enemy.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#12 - 2012-05-15 06:56:54 UTC
Nate Nichols wrote:
But I do understand some basic principles of space.

So here are my questions/complaints:


1. Things tend to stay in motion until acted on by an external force. If I'm not being webed, why can't I hit my AB, hit x velocity, and then turn off my AB and remain at x velocity, thus saving cap? What the hell is slowing me down? Is there friction in new eden space.....?

2. Same general idea of question 1. If I hit a wreck with a tractor beam and bring it towards me, shouldn't I be able to tractor it for just a sec, then turn it off, and have that object continue to fly towards my ship until it bounces off my hull? Assuming I don't move and it continues to fly towards my location. Is there friction in new eden space.....?

3. I could write 3 paragraphs about deceleration and how that works, but whatever.

As a hopeless sci fi nerd, these things bug me.

Why does "space" seem to have friction? What possible forces are acting on myself and these various objects?


The basic reason is that if ships were zipping about at tens or hundreds of thousands of kilometers per second, EVE would be unplayable as anything except a physics simulator.

So basically, A Wizard Did It.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Keno Skir
#13 - 2012-05-15 11:54:42 UTC
A quick not, if you want to see some actual real space physics in eve. Tractor a wreck toward your noctis while heading away from it at mwd speed. Once you are up to speed and the wreck has caught up and is bouncing around behind you, salvage it. Soon as your salvage is complete shut off the mwd and watch the empty wreck-shell overtake you and continue off into space with no drag at all.. untill it disapears a moment later. Bit slack i know but it's the closest thing to real space physics i'v seen so far :D
Ilnaurk Sithdogron
Blackwater International
#14 - 2012-05-15 12:18:53 UTC
This is a science fiction game. Allow me to add emphasis on the second word. EVE does not have to follow real-world rules if it doesn't want to.

With proper physics, it would be much more difficult to get people into the game, not to mention that ships flying would look much worse. I like my fancy banking turns.

http://eve-sojourn.blogspot.com/

Sin Pew
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2012-05-15 12:37:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Sin Pew
One can also further the mind boggling with sound. *If* Eve was a space simulator, you wouldn't hear the sound of explosions, of other ship's turrets, engines, missiles, etc. because sound doesn't travel in vacuum.
Thankfully it's just a game and we can tick the "quieter turrets sound" checkbox... Shocked

[i]"haiku are easy, But sometimes they don't make sense, Refrigerator."[/i]

Keno Skir
#16 - 2012-05-15 16:36:13 UTC
Ilnaurk Sithdogron wrote:
This is a science friction game.


Fixed that, can't believe nobody made that joke yet :/
Toshiro GreyHawk
#17 - 2012-05-15 19:36:50 UTC



RL physics have nothing what so ever to do with most game physics.

Just get used to it or you will waste a lot of your time thinking about something that isn't going to change.


An example from another game - playing Planetside you've got these guys in powered armor called Maxes. Then you've got these guys that can turn invisible who have no armor at all. Now - say the Max is coming down the stairs and the Infiltrator is running up the stairs. They collide. The Max will bounce off the Infiltrator - because the Infiltrator is going Faster. In RL - F=MA. In PS F=V.

Even most of your flight simulators cheat - or have a cheat/easy mode.


Think about it. A trained pilot in RL has to have hundreds of hours of flight time to be qualified to fly a military aircraft - IF - they'll even be accepted for the training - which most human beings will not.

Even to get a Civilian Pilots License takes many hours of flight time with an instructor before they'll even let you solo.

You simply aren't going to get enough members of the general public to do touch and goes for hour after hour so they can pretend they are flying an aircraft, to make a profitable MMO if those were the requirements.

Now - as to EVE in particular - you will notice that there are no joy stick controls. I mean ... you kind of click in the general direction of the way you want to go to steer your space craft ... How lame is that? *shrug* But that is not an over sight by the developers - it was a conscious decision in their game design.

EVE is a good game - but that's all it is - a game - and - as games go - it is NOT even a simulator.



Did I mention about how you can shoot right through other ships and asteroids to hit your target?


*shrug*

.




Lost Greybeard
Drunken Yordles
#18 - 2012-05-16 00:26:14 UTC
Sin Pew wrote:
One can also further the mind boggling with sound. *If* Eve was a space simulator, you wouldn't hear the sound of explosions, of other ship's turrets, engines, missiles, etc. because sound doesn't travel in vacuum.
Thankfully it's just a game and we can tick the "quieter turrets sound" checkbox... Shocked


Sounds are explicitly stated to be simulated to allow eggers to make better use of all of your senses in one of the earlier chronicles. Remember that you're not looking out a window of your ship, you're viewing the combined input of your ship's various sensors, calculations, and camera drones. Your actual eyes, assuming they're open, are looking through several feet of green goo at a thick steel shell, in complete darkness to boot.

This is also why you can see things like Nebulae/space gas (which are only visible in the far infrared or, at highest energy, microwave spectrum), Black Holes (whose coronae emit no light below the x-ray spectrum) and things like nuclear projectiles (which primarily emit alpha/beta particles, otherwise known as "no light at all"). It's why you can send off your camera drones to focus your viewpoint on other ships. It's why you have to target things to hit them with your cybernetic brain rather than just eyeballing their trajectory with super-math. It's why laser weapons are bright shiny beams in your vision instead of barely-visible reflections off ambient gas. It's also as good an explanation as any for why you don't see individual differences in ship markings or the damage from when you collide-- it's of no relevance to you.

This also answers someone else's complaint regarding the joysticks. You're not a pilot in a WW2 bomber, you're the cybernetic guidance system that takes the place of a human command and navigation crew using automation. You don't need tactile feedback, it's not like you can feel anything with your hands anyhow. You tell the computer to set a course and it sets it.
Tinukeda'ya Naskingar
Minmatar Expeditions ltd.
#19 - 2012-05-16 05:49:16 UTC
One way to make this friction feel to go away is to stop the engine animation upon reaching the set speed. The engines would fire up again with every vector change.

To add even more realism maneuvering and reverse thrusters might be added to the ship models to fire up with slowing down or for vector change. This might ofcourse be quite hard on some ships, although doable I believe.

Some thinking about AB and MWD would be necessary as for if the cap is drained on the set speed or not and so on, but that isn't really the point here...

I'm not talking about change in the physics model. All we need is a small change in graphical representation for an workable compromise.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." -  Arthur C. Clarke

Plaude Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2012-05-16 07:07:13 UTC
Pris Du'Lac wrote:
also Gravity could be that possible force!

Well, considering that the Earth's gravity well extends far beyond the atmosphere (several million kilometers, in fact) I wouldn't be surprised if our ships are slowed down by the planets and moons' gravity wells. So, there. That explains how our ships can lose speed without thrust. Also, considering that our planet is nothing but a speck of dust compared to many other planets, it's not unrealistic to think about the possibility that the planets in EVE have vastly larger gravity wells.

New to EVE? Want to learn? The Crimson Cartel will train you in the fields of _**your **_choice. Mainly active in EU afternoons and evenings. Contact me for more info.

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