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Medium and Heavy neuts vs frigate sized hulls
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HOwareyoutoday
Doomheim
#1 - 2012-05-15 06:16:00 UTC
These neuts do the following to small ships:

Turn off propulsion

Turn off tackle mods

Turn off any active tank

Turn off blasters/lasers/rails

If you fit a cap booster or vamp you sacrifice fitting for other modules. Sometimes you need to even fit both a vamp and neut to hold a point and keep propulsion (hurricanes with dual medium neut for example).

I'm not saying this is unbalanced, as perhaps there is something I don't know. However is this considered balanced by the community in general at the moment?
Sin Meng
Catskull Horizons
Grimskulls
#2 - 2012-05-15 06:18:22 UTC
Personally I think neuts are far too common on ship hulls in general. In regards to their effects on smaller ships I think a good compromise would be to have their effect scaled by signature radius.

Elements of the past and the future combining to make something not quite as good as either.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#3 - 2012-05-15 06:42:17 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Been discussed already. Medium neut has a range of 12.5km, which allows small ships to kite, and cycles every 12 seconds. A heavy neut has a range of 24km, whith allows for well-skilled fleet interceptors to kite just out of range, and cycles every 24 seconds.

A small nos cycles every 3 seconds and provides enough capacitor for tackle and maybe weapons. Yeah, you have to sacrifice some fittings... but don't you have to do that for pretty much every mod on every ship?
edit: plus, you have to consider that it is very hard for a large ship (battleships especially) to hit a small ship orbiting at 500m even with no prop mod on.


Plus, the new stats for capacitor batteries looks pretty interesting. They have a chance to "reflect" a portion of the neutralizer back at the enemy.

How did you Veterans start?
HOwareyoutoday
Doomheim
#4 - 2012-05-15 07:08:46 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Been discussed already. Medium neut has a range of 12.5km, which allows small ships to kite, and cycles every 12 seconds. A heavy neut has a range of 24km, whith allows for well-skilled fleet interceptors to kite just out of range, and cycles every 24 seconds.

A small nos cycles every 3 seconds and provides enough capacitor for tackle and maybe weapons. Yeah, you have to sacrifice some fittings... but don't you have to do that for pretty much every mod on every ship?
edit: plus, you have to consider that it is very hard for a large ship (battleships especially) to hit a small ship orbiting at 500m even with no prop mod on.


Plus, the new stats for capacitor batteries looks pretty interesting. They have a chance to "reflect" a portion of the neutralizer back at the enemy.



Hurricanes are really the prime example of this problem, if you try to kite them in disruptor range they can track and kill you.

If you try to fly under their guns they neut and kill you after cap drains.

They can deploy drones on you at any range.

Battleships aren't as much as an issue with heavy neuts because Large Turrets have a hard time hitting frigates at any range, BC's are the problem since they drones web point and neuts and medium guns that smack you in a frigate's "kiting" range.
TotalRapeage
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2012-05-15 08:27:24 UTC
Sin Meng wrote:
Personally I think neuts are far too common on ship hulls in general. In regards to their effects on smaller ships I think a good compromise would be to have their effect scaled by signature radius.




um no
TotalRapeage
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2012-05-15 08:29:13 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Been discussed already. Medium neut has a range of 12.5km, which allows small ships to kite, and cycles every 12 seconds. A heavy neut has a range of 24km, whith allows for well-skilled fleet interceptors to kite just out of range, and cycles every 24 seconds.

A small nos cycles every 3 seconds and provides enough capacitor for tackle and maybe weapons. Yeah, you have to sacrifice some fittings... but don't you have to do that for pretty much every mod on every ship?
edit: plus, you have to consider that it is very hard for a large ship (battleships especially) to hit a small ship orbiting at 500m even with no prop mod on.


Plus, the new stats for capacitor batteries looks pretty interesting. They have a chance to "reflect" a portion of the neutralizer back at the enemy.



The stats you listed are for unbonused ships. No frig is ever going to kite a curse, sorry.
HOwareyoutoday
Doomheim
#7 - 2012-05-15 08:54:25 UTC
TotalRapeage wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
Been discussed already. Medium neut has a range of 12.5km, which allows small ships to kite, and cycles every 12 seconds. A heavy neut has a range of 24km, whith allows for well-skilled fleet interceptors to kite just out of range, and cycles every 24 seconds.

A small nos cycles every 3 seconds and provides enough capacitor for tackle and maybe weapons. Yeah, you have to sacrifice some fittings... but don't you have to do that for pretty much every mod on every ship?
edit: plus, you have to consider that it is very hard for a large ship (battleships especially) to hit a small ship orbiting at 500m even with no prop mod on.


Plus, the new stats for capacitor batteries looks pretty interesting. They have a chance to "reflect" a portion of the neutralizer back at the enemy.



The stats you listed are for unbonused ships. No frig is ever going to kite a curse, sorry.


There's nothing wrong with a Curse being able to do this to frigs. The ships has bonuses and is meant for it. The problem is that every BC and Battleship can neut frigs to useless. It's an insult.
Xi 'xar
Rift Watch
#8 - 2012-05-15 09:36:50 UTC
HOwareyoutoday wrote:
[quote=ShahFluffers]


Hurricanes are really the prime example of this problem, if you try to kite them in disruptor range they can track and kill you.

If you try to fly under their guns they neut and kill you after cap drains.

They can deploy drones on you at any range.


Thats because hurricanes are just, like, the best ship ever and there is no, like, counter to them whatsoever.

http://herdingwolves.wordpress.com/
Cpt Cosmic
Perkone
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-05-15 11:52:50 UTC
Xi 'xar wrote:
HOwareyoutoday wrote:
[quote=ShahFluffers]


Hurricanes are really the prime example of this problem, if you try to kite them in disruptor range they can track and kill you.

If you try to fly under their guns they neut and kill you after cap drains.

They can deploy drones on you at any range.


Thats because hurricanes are just, like, the best ship ever and there is no, like, counter to them whatsoever.

I can do this with any ship that has an utility high slot. cyclone, cane, rupture, arbitrator, tempest and many more...
Greg Valanti
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-05-15 12:00:39 UTC
What's the problem? The rock-paper-scissor style of ship fittings is what helps make the game great. If you don't want to fit a cap booster or NOS, you risk death to heavy neuting.

Frigates should not have carte blanche to orbit larger hulls at 0 without risk.

HOwareyoutoday wrote:

Sometimes you need to even fit both a vamp and neut to hold a point and keep propulsion


As to this, I don't even...
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#11 - 2012-05-15 14:49:45 UTC
HOwareyoutoday wrote:
[quote=ShahFluffers]
Hurricanes are really the prime example of this problem, if you try to kite them in disruptor range they can track and kill you.

If you try to fly under their guns they neut and kill you after cap drains.

They can deploy drones on you at any range.


BTW: There is something called Tracking Disruptor which when used with a range script cripples AC-Hurricane Damage to close to null against an kiting frigate in a 17 km orbit. Try this, it solves your problem.

Just as a side note: Pure EFT DPS does say nothing about the performance of a ship in a real fight. Often just a bit more tank / ewar / capwar / speed / agility / less signature / tracking / etc. are more useful in practice than a few more theoretical on-paper DPS.
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#12 - 2012-05-15 15:00:58 UTC
Its the rule of almost all Ewar, the smaller the target the greater the affect.

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 
Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-05-15 15:53:46 UTC
Considering the difficulty of hitting small fast ships with large Weapon systems and the relative ease of kiting them while popping any drones they send after you, a Heavy Nuet is about their last line of defense, do you want to nerf them completely off the field?
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#14 - 2012-05-15 15:56:06 UTC
scissors are OP
-paper

I should buy an Ishtar.
Unimaginative Guy
Dutch Squad
#15 - 2012-05-15 18:15:56 UTC
Frigates should feel useless near anything bigger than it. In a Navy battle would you bring a fishing boat with a 50mm cannon to a cruiser and carrier fight?

Frigs are meant for speed or disposable tackle or ***** and giggles. a Battlecruiser will own one and in a way really should be able to destroy one.
Archimedes Eratosthenes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2012-05-15 20:05:05 UTC
Unimaginative Guy wrote:
Frigates should feel useless near anything bigger than it. In a Navy battle would you bring a fishing boat with a 50mm cannon to a cruiser and carrier fight?

Frigs are meant for speed or disposable tackle or ***** and giggles. a Battlecruiser will own one and in a way really should be able to destroy one.


Well you are quite unimaginative. However I agree that a BC should pwn a frig and be guaranteed a win 99% of the time in a 1v1 fight. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean they should wtfpwn them in under 15 seconds either if they are close range combat frigates.

In a real NAVY battle (pretend it's 1v1) if a frigate were foolish enough to engage a BC sized target, the fight wouldn't end in 15 seconds. There would be shelling from both ships for about 15 to 30 minutes depending on how well the frigate/destroyer positioned itself.

Now am I saying that EvE should mimic the real high seas of the 18 and early 19th century and have frigate vs BC fights that last 15 minutes or Battleship fights (1v1) that last 2+ hours? No, that would face pounding for 99% of the EvE population (it's a game in the end).

However, I do a believe an entire redesign of the game is due, such that a combat vessel fighting it's same hull size vessel should take about 3-5 minutes (assuming similar skills and loadout). A frigate vs BC should last about 60-120 seconds with the BC winning the fight (this means a BC would be very vulnerable to a swarm of 4+ frigates and perhaps bring about an end EvE- Drakes and Hurricanes Online).

So sir may I redirect you to:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=107690&find=unread
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Crouching Woman Hidden Cucumber
#17 - 2012-05-15 20:10:29 UTC
While I think there may be room for some nerfs on energy neuts I don't think it should hinder the dedicated neuting ships (Amarr recons, Blood Raider ships) as any nerf to neuts themselves without a corresponding buff to these ships would end up making them obsolete. A Nerf to the hulls they are most prolific on may be a better solution

I don't like the idea of neuts 'reflecting' or things off cap battery fits, or blanket nerfs. At then end of the day there are only a few hulls I would say neuts are inbalanced on.

Hurricane - too much versatility possibly
Tempest - Similar deal

All other ships trade a lot for their neuting. Any laser ships is fairly cap hungry by nature, Gallente rarely have the fitting space or trade gun DPS to neut so I dont think this is an issue.
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#18 - 2012-05-15 20:30:14 UTC
At Archimedes Eratosthenes:

In Reality Submarine (= Stealth Bomber) is able to sink a Battleship with One salvo of Torpedos and Even à whole Fleet with One Nuklear Torpedo. But such à mechanics is no fun and EVE is à Game therefore EVE machanics is made so that Fights Even between Frig and BS are fun and à Frig is able to kill slowly à badly fitted BS.

So just go away and Start playing the Game instead of moaning around.
Archimedes Eratosthenes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2012-05-15 20:41:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Archimedes Eratosthenes
Meditril wrote:
At Archimedes Eratosthenes:

In Reality Submarine (= Stealth Bomber) is able to sink a Battleship with One salvo of Torpedos and Even à whole Fleet with One Nuklear Torpedo. But such à mechanics is no fun and EVE is à Game therefore EVE machanics is made so that Fights Even between Frig and BS are fun and à Frig is able to kill slowly à badly fitted BS.

So just go away and Start playing the Game instead of moaning around.

Did I advocate a ship that can destroy a whole fleet? No, I said the warhead was single target damage only and could only hit capital ships. The warhead can also be easily destroyed by defender missiles and smartbombs, combine with the fact that the bomber cruiser can only carry one warhead at a time.

EDIT:
If you watch the CCP video on ship redesign, you'll also see they are thinking along my lines with their Ship Lines, I just though I'd give them a raw picture of what they themselves are thinking. Since they quoted 18th Century Ship of Lines as a reference to their new school of thought, I'd thought give them the numbers to make their own vision a reality.
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#20 - 2012-05-16 01:05:39 UTC
Just wanna point out:
webbs-supper bad for friggs
Scramms-super bad for friggs
ECM-more likely to work Vs. friggs
Target painters- make friggs way quicker to kill
Turret disruptors-keeps friggs from kiting
Damps-hard for a frigg to kite
Long points-hard for a frigg to kite
Nuet/NOS-shut down friggs

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 
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