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New dev blog: War, Modules & Super Friends

First post
Author
Captain Thunk
Explode. Now. Please.
Alliance. Now. Please.
#141 - 2012-05-14 17:37:54 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:

Also: Number of wars the aggressor can declare no longer artificially limited to 3, but can be as high as the aggressor is willing to pay for.


For alliances it was always unlimited. Its already started, alliances are filling their ranks with numbers just to raise the price beyond reason.
cBOLTSON
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#142 - 2012-05-14 17:38:12 UTC
Intresting. Nothing too game changing in there module wise yet its a good bast to start on.

I would olny ask for more information on the micro warp jump drive thingy. This is the module that had the potential to really change gameplay and a lot of us were intrested it the mechanics of it.

Would CCP share any more info on this? Also is this something you are planning to do every patch? (Test and add a couple of new modules each cycle?)

The good old days of Unreal Tournament, fragging and sniping on Facing Worlds, listening to Foregone Destruction.......

handige harrie
Vereenigde Handels Compagnie
#143 - 2012-05-14 17:38:59 UTC
Will the new BPC's also get seeded in corresponding Drone officers and sites? as they are 'the same' as normal rats now?

Baddest poster ever

Thomas Kreshant
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#144 - 2012-05-14 17:40:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Thomas Kreshant
Carton Mantory wrote:
VagabondAlt wrote:
Does the magsheath break the locks of ships immune to electronic warfare (titans, supercarriers)?

Really need to read the description a couple times...



Answered here



Hmm, wrong answer linked there sir.

The question asked if I fit that mod to my battleship will that cause supercapitals that are immune to electronic warfare to lose lock Question
VagabondAlt
GoonCorp
Goonswarm Federation
#145 - 2012-05-14 17:40:20 UTC
Carton Mantory wrote:
VagabondAlt wrote:
Does the magsheath break the locks of ships immune to electronic warfare (titans, supercarriers)?

Really need to read the description a couple times...



Answered here

That description only talks about locks, yet given that the description of modules frequently omits important information I would like a clear answer.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#146 - 2012-05-14 17:40:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Aramis Lynx wrote:
The ecm is an interesting anti-bob warfare module. This is the only way I see this being used is in fleet battles:

Everyone fits one, stays aligned, as soon as called primary hits the ecm and spams warp until warp out. Rinse repeat. Nobody in either fleet ever dies.


1: If a bubble isn't involved the target often has time to warp out anyway.

2: If the entire fleet targets one person all the time yes, but if smaller groups (squadron or perhaps wing) are targetting that person (and the rest of the fleet is doing the same to other people) then targetting functions normally for the most part. This encourages splitting up targeting or using smaller fleets hitting different area's.

3: The drawback to have this module mounted is slower targetting speed. I don't believe it has to be active for this to apply.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#147 - 2012-05-14 17:41:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
I still maintain that the “pay for number of targets” logic is wrong-headed — no matter the base cost and any diminishing returns, it only ever means that small targets will be picked on and that dec-shielding will become the standard.

Make it a relative measure: you pay for number imbalance.

abs( ln( attacker size / target size ) / ln( size multiplier ) ) × imbalance cost + base cost.

In other words, for every [size multiplier] times larger or smaller the target is than the attacker, the cost increases by a factor of [imbalance cost], with a minimum price tag of [base cost]. This gives you a lot of variables to play with: how cheap will any war be (base cost)? How much do I have to pay to bully a small guy or annoy a large guy at the Jita undock (imbalance cost)? And, most interestingly, what actually counts as having an “unfair numerical advantage” (size multiplier)?

E.g.
A size multiplier of 1.5, imbalance cost of 50M and base cost of 5M — for every 50% increase in the size difference between target and aggressor, the war becomes 50M ISK more expensive with a minimum cost of 5M for perfectly equal sizes.

· A 10-man corp attacking a 1-man corp (or vice versa): 289M ISK.
· A 10-man corp attacking a 20-man corp (or vice versa): 90M ISK.
· A 3,500-man corp attacking a 5,000-man corp: 49M ISK.
· A 5-man corp attacking a 5,000-man corp: 857M ISK.
Thomas Kreshant
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#148 - 2012-05-14 17:41:48 UTC
cBOLTSON wrote:


Would CCP share any more info on this? Also is this something you are planning to do every patch? (Test and add a couple of new modules each cycle?)


If you watch the fanfest footage one of the Devs (forgotten his name) stated they wanted to bring out lots more modules on a regular basis with various effects to mix up game play.
stoicfaux
#149 - 2012-05-14 17:43:36 UTC
Woo! Some potentially very interesting modules! Oh wait, they're going to be in short supply since they're BPC drop only...

/shrug

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#150 - 2012-05-14 17:46:21 UTC
Ok folks, time for a recap of the replies so far.

1) Shield tankers whine because the new CPU rig is designed so that you can't make OP shield fits with it

2) Wardeccers whine because new wardec costs more, making them actually consider before they declare war

3) Carebears whine because new wardec doesn't cost enough

4) Missile users whine because a module that previously affected only turrets gets fixed

5) Industrials whine, just because all the others whine and they don't want to be left out


Change. It's hard.

.

Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#151 - 2012-05-14 17:47:09 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:

You can't join an alliance if you're an aggressor in a war.


Good change. It prevents one of the possible exploits.

That's, uh, not a change. It's been like that for a very long time.


Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Mangala Solaris wrote:

What if, there are two corporations (A & B for example) in a mutual war and along comes some dumb 3rd party who decs one or both sides, does the 7 day rule then kick in for players in corps A & B?


I'm not sure that the 7-day rule should apply to the defenders. And that's a key reason why.

(Which might also be why the timer needs to be shortened to 3-days instead of 7-days.)

I am absolutely opposed to a reduction in the cycle time of wars. They are 7 days for a reason: It covers all players' habits, it is short enough to not be forever, and it is long enough to be significant. A 3 day war would seem like a meaningless, passing, and frivolous affair and would not ever be taken seriously by the defenders until at least the second cycle because it simply has no weight to it.

Wars should have meaning and require a real investment of time and money.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#152 - 2012-05-14 17:51:28 UTC
Oh, and by the way, are you still going with the idea that wars can only be declared mutual in the first 24 hours after declaration?

If so, stop going with it.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#153 - 2012-05-14 17:53:46 UTC
Iam Widdershins wrote:
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:

You can't join an alliance if you're an aggressor in a war.


Good change. It prevents one of the possible exploits.

That's, uh, not a change. It's been like that for a very long time.


Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Mangala Solaris wrote:

What if, there are two corporations (A & B for example) in a mutual war and along comes some dumb 3rd party who decs one or both sides, does the 7 day rule then kick in for players in corps A & B?


I'm not sure that the 7-day rule should apply to the defenders. And that's a key reason why.

(Which might also be why the timer needs to be shortened to 3-days instead of 7-days.)

I am absolutely opposed to a reduction in the cycle time of wars. They are 7 days for a reason: It covers all players' habits, it is short enough to not be forever, and it is long enough to be significant. A 3 day war would seem like a meaningless, passing, and frivolous affair and would not ever be taken seriously by the defenders until at least the second cycle because it simply has no weight to it.

Wars should have meaning and require a real investment of time and money.

I think he was referring to the timer to rejoin a corp at war: make it 3 days vs 7. Not the war cycle time.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction

stoicfaux
#154 - 2012-05-14 17:58:23 UTC
Aramis Lynx wrote:
The ecm is an interesting anti-bob warfare module. This is the only way I see this being used is in fleet battles:

Everyone fits one, stays aligned, as soon as called primary hits the ecm and spams warp until warp out. Rinse repeat. Nobody in either fleet ever dies.

Or... your fleet fits a Passive Targeter in that mid-slot so that the enemy doesn't know who is being targeted so they won't know when to hit the anti-blob ecm module. Methinks the anti-blob module will need to be always on, which means your fleet will have "significantly" lower lock times which could put you at a disadvantage.

Anyway, I'm not going to comment until the lock breaking probabilities are mapped out.

What I see is having a "primary" list that is several ships deep, so if you have Alice, Bob, Charlie, and Dave locked, and you lose your lock on Alice and Charlie, then you (and hopefully a lot of others) can still alpha Bob.


Uhm, do Drones count towards the lock breaking probabilities...?

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Tub Chil
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#155 - 2012-05-14 17:59:41 UTC
I don't like lockbreaker thing
MinutemanKirk
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#156 - 2012-05-14 18:01:25 UTC  |  Edited by: MinutemanKirk
Alx Warlord wrote:

Extrinsic Damage Amplifier I & II: This doesn't sounds good, as a drone boat user, most of the drone boats use low slots as tank, ( except for the rattlesnake that will be overpower with lots of tank, torpedo dps and drones dps) so the gallente ships will not be that good again.... my sugestion was to make this a Hi-Slot module (since this is a drone augmentation module, not a ship dps module), so most of drone boats could really use it, removing the guns and replacing with it...


I couldn't agree more. As primarily a fleet PvP player, I've had a lot of experience with small to mid size fleets and the need for DPS in addition to tank. Currently, at least within the FW community (and as I touched on in a recent guest opinion blog), Gallente ships are shunned from armor fleets for having delayed and/or low DPS from drones, short ranges, and low amounts of tankability in comparison with Amarr and Minmatar ships. Now finally CCP has decided to give a buff to drone boats but at the expense of the already weak Gallente fleet usability.

While I can understand not wanting to have it a high slot fitting (even if I disagree), at the very LEAST it should be a mid slot to harmonize fitting with omni-directional tracking links. This way it is no different than turret (or some missile) based systems that have both tracking and damage modifiers requiring the same slot. Gallente drone ships with their mid slots (5 on the Myrm, Ishtar, and Domi) would then have something to use those slots for other than EWAR and not gimp their already weak fleet abilities.
Carton Mantory
Vindicate and Deliverance
#157 - 2012-05-14 18:02:41 UTC
Tippia wrote:
I still maintain that the “pay for number of targets” logic is wrong-headed — no matter the base cost and any diminishing returns, it only ever means that small targets will be picked on and that dec-shielding will become the standard.

Make it a relative measure: you pay for number imbalance.

abs( ln( attacker size / target size ) / ln( size multiplier ) ) × imbalance cost + base cost.

In other words, for every [size multiplier] times larger or smaller the target is than the attacker, the cost increases by a factor of [imbalance cost], with a minimum price tag of [base cost]. This gives you a lot of variables to play with: how cheap will any war be (base cost)? How much do I have to pay to bully a small guy or annoy a large guy at the Jita undock (imbalance cost)? And, most interestingly, what actually counts as having an “unfair numerical advantage” (size multiplier)?

E.g.
A size multiplier of 1.5, imbalance cost of 50M and base cost of 5M — for every 50% increase in the size difference between target and aggressor, the war becomes 50M ISK more expensive with a minimum cost of 5M for perfectly equal sizes.

· A 10-man corp attacking a 1-man corp (or vice versa): 289M ISK.
· A 10-man corp attacking a 20-man corp (or vice versa): 90M ISK.
· A 3,500-man corp attacking a 5,000-man corp: 49M ISK.
· A 5-man corp attacking a 5,000-man corp: 857M ISK.


Your numbers dont change much except when the numbers get closer to eachother. I think the way CCP is going at it is no matter your size the 50M isk is the basis. If a large corp/alliance gets dec that war cost should be more. They have inherent costs and the hi sec battles occur more concord monitoring.
Eternal Error
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#158 - 2012-05-14 18:03:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternal Error
My two cents, in no particular order:

Target breaker:

I'm assuming this is going to be better than ECM (otherwise there would be no need for a new module), in which case this is just flat out stupid. As someone already mentioned, it would also make a lot more sense to change ECM burst rather than create a new module. This module is going to make Eve a much safer place, and even if you like that, you won't like the inflation and decreased demand it causes due to a decrease in ship kills. This is a cheap nod to the anti-suicide gank crowd (and PvErs in general) and also has the potential to ruin fleet fights.

TL;DR: Bad idea, change ECM burst instead. Eve should be dangerous.

Tracking disruptors affecting missiles:
I love the pilgrim and I fly it quite a bit. That being said, this (planned) change is also terrible. Target painters and sensor dampeners both suck, and ECM is far and away the best EWAR. For starters, you should work on rebalancing TPs and SDs (or nerfing ECM) before messing with TDs. Also, while I could see introducing some sort of small effect on missiles (i.e. engaging a missile ship would now be "probably" a bad idea vs. the "really" bad idea that it is now), making TDs straight work on missiles would be a little overpowered IMO. There's no reason an EWAR system shouldn't have drawbacks.

TL;DR: Don't do it. Fix SDs and TPs.

New war system:

1. You are still including the doubling (of the base cost or the overall cost? I'm not sure) depending on how many wars the aggressor is running. This is unnecessary and prohibitively expensive given the new costs. Additionally, as someone already mentioned, it makes deccing two 100 man corps far more expensive than a 200 man corp, which just doesn't make sense.

2. 50m base cost is too high, and provides incentive for small corps <20-30 people to try to just fly under the radar and be ignored. I would change the base cost to 20m, but change the cost formula so that the cost starts climbing around 30 or 50 members, maybe reaching 50m at 100 people.

3. Without arguing about whether larger or smaller entities should cost more to be decced (plenty of people are debating this), I think the cost should be capped around 200-250m per week. Alliances with thousands of members do provide more targets, but they are also more than capable of defending themselves if needed. If necessary, add an additional modifier based on the number of accounts in the deccing corp.

4. Don't count inactive accounts. Seriously.

5. I was really disappointed to hear your solution to people leaving corps. All the fanfest videos and devblogs I watched made it seem like you guys were going to have a real solution, and it turns out you're preventing them from rejoining (which they probably don't want to do anyway). I would prefer to see a system where the person who leaves is still a valid war target for a short period of time, or that they get a mark on their corp history as outlined in one of the videos. If the marking system was deemed too draconian, simply make it so that members kicked by the CEO do NOT receive a blemish. This way, if the corp as a whole wishes to dissolve or move members around for strategic reasons, it will not affect them negatively.

TL;DR: Costs are too high. Don't count inactive accounts. Don't double costs for aggressor wars (if the costs remain this high). Your solution to corp hopping sucks.
Carton Mantory
Vindicate and Deliverance
#159 - 2012-05-14 18:04:41 UTC
MinutemanKirk wrote:
Alx Warlord wrote:

Extrinsic Damage Amplifier I & II: This doesn't sounds good, as a drone boat user, most of the drone boats use low slots as tank, ( except for the rattlesnake that will be overpower with lots of tank, torpedo dps and drones dps) so the gallente ships will not be that good again.... my sugestion was to make this a Hi-Slot module (since this is a drone augmentation module, not a ship dps module), so most of drone boats could really use it, removing the guns and replacing with it...


I couldn't agree more. As primarily a fleet PvP player, I've had a lot of experience with small to mid size fleets and the need for DPS in addition to tank. Currently, at least within the FW community (and as I touched on in a recent guest opinion blog), Gallente ships are shunned from armor fleets for having delayed and/or low DPS from drones, short ranges, and low amounts of tankability in comparison with Amarr and Minmatar ships. Now finally CCP has decided to give a buff to drone boats but at the expense of the already weak Gallente fleet usability.

While I can understand not wanting to have it a high slot fitting (even if I disagree), at the very LEAST it should be a mid slot to harmonize fitting with omni-directional tracking links. This way it is no different than turret (or some missile) based systems that have both tracking and damage modifiers requiring the same slot. Gallente drone ships with their mid slots (5 on the Myrm, Ishtar, and Domi) would then have something to use those slots for other than EWAR and not gimp their already weak fleet abilities.



If you look at all Drone changes that are coming every small change makes a greater impact
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#160 - 2012-05-14 18:04:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
Brunaburh wrote:
Vera Algaert wrote:
Quote:
Also, as the thinking is to start to add modules on a regular basis, so we're looking into ways of how we can fight the potential issues associated with it, such as bloating the market too much and introducing power creep. Seeding through loot drops gives us better control over where and when and how much to seed, which is an important feature for us to have for the future.

what happened to the mantra of a player-run economy?

How is a loot drop that requires a player to run a site and acquire the BPC less of a "player run economy" than an NPC seeded BPO?

in one case the players decide supply (based on an economic rationale), in the other case CCP do.

.