EVE General Discussion

You proceed from a false premise. CCP advertises Eve as a "sandbox", meaning that everyone is (in theory) free to play the game as they wish. In a sandbox-style open-ended MMO there is no ultimate goal therefore, all parts of the game are equally valuable, all play styles valid and interconnected.

If 0.0 is so fabulous why are there so few there? Could the answers be that: 0.0 is inherently unsuited to the more casual player, that null corps/alliances are far more difficult to get into (Goons are a prime example), that 0.0 alliances are extremely hostile towards non-PVP players (i.e. industrialists), that not everyone wants to be a renter serf, that the 0.0 lifestyle just isn't for everyone, that much of 0.0 is just as much of a boring grind as any other area of space, or any combination of these?

The biggest issue isn't with the attitudes of high sec dwellers, it's with the 0.0 people who love belittling, insulting, harassing and killing anything that moves or anyone who isn't one of them. Change that attitude and maybe more people would want to join your party.

As a high-sec carebear, here's my perceptions of things. Note that I haven't been to null sec, so my answers are likely to sound ignorant to null sec dwellers (and rightfully so).



IMHO, the reason players don't want to leave null sec is because they don't want to deal with non-consensual PVP. But that's at the heart of low and null sec. I'm not sure how to get rid of that without destroying what low and null sec is all about.



No, high sec should not be removed. In fact, I think high sec is fine just the way it is. It's safe (safer, anyway), but the options available are pretty limited. There isn't that much combat the ability to make ISK is limited, and competition is very high.

If you want to introduce players to the harsh realities of getting ganked, send them to low sec to complete part of the tutorial. I guarantee you that if the game sends new players to low sec as part of the tutorial, there will be a very large number of pirate corporations that will set up in that system, more than willing to teach new players all about ganking.



Low sec may be a little unbalanced, at least from the risk-reward perspective, but I think high and null sec are fine. I would up the rewards of low sec just a bit.

That said, the original question was how do you get players out of high sec and into null sec. I don't see that as a CCP issue, it's a null sec alliances/corporation issue, or more precisely, a perception issue. Most players see null sec as two things: (1) constant gate camping or (2) 1000 ship battles. What corporations need to do is convince the industrialists, miners and missioners to join up.

The way I see it, not all players want to PVP. Some want to build things, or explore, or mission or whatever. I thinks there's a MASSIVE opportunity for null sec alliances here. Some people just want to mine, and if null sec corporations can convince them that they can do so safely tucked in the middle of a sovereign area, they could get tons of ISK rolling in with little to no effort on their part, and they can use that ISK to fund the ongoing battle for sov. It's win-win, as far as I'm concerned.

And speaking for myself, if a null sec alliance offered me an industrialist position in their corp (and I mean peon position, not a directorship or any other official role), I'd fly out to null sec on the spot.

(I realize the irony of my posting about being an industrialist while posting with RvB character. My alts are all industrialists ).

No, see the next post

What turns me on is people who are pants on head ******** and sign their posts on forums. Because we really can't see your name or anything to indicate who you possibly might be. Or is Tal just something you have to place on the end of every post because of some kind of OCD? They have help for that, you know.

Whilst the thread has been a great read, I can only detail my experiences as a high sec 'carebear' to NULL, and back again.

So during my first 2 years in high sec, less than 0.5 systems didn't exist to me after i poked my head into a 0.4 and got locked down by a gate camp 1 jump in. I lost my ship and hightailed back to high sec. Basically reported my findings back to my corp mates and there we stayed. One of my corpmates was running missions, and got a mission to got to 0.4 space, finished his mission and got locked undocking from the station, ultimately lost his ship and mission cargo, he reported back to the corp and a decision was made to employ rules that anything less than 0.5 was off limits to all corp members to prevent losing ships pointlessly.

One of our corpies decided to defy the rules, and band together with several other corp mates, and headed back to said 0.4 to confront the campers, so they landed at system and before long the scout / bait was locked down and attacked.. everyone warped in, and attempted to crash the welcome wagon. needless to say that the the local chaps in their PvP ships started smack talking in local, about being idiot dumbasses, cussing, swearing, basically being completely obnoxious.. The rag tag fleet from our corp were holding their own, but only just... had no experience other than missioning, the 3 veterans clearly were talking on ventrillo or whatever, and suddenly about 10 more appeared in local and jumped the team. Obviously our guys fell fast and hard and the smack in local only got worse... Our policy is to NEVER smack back, so local was filled up with one way insults and gestures some really quite rude and insulting, several screenshots were taken and reported to CCP which never amounted to anything.

Anyway from that moment onwards we got war decced continuously by these idiots, and it broke our small corp up as all of us were forced into a station and sit there, members left, quit and went their own way. We broke the corp up and it just became our circle of real life friends.

After just plodding along in high sec for a year or so, we wanted to expand again. Searched the forum for a nice band of folk to go to NULL and try for the first time owning a POS in what we'd consider friendly alliance space, so we were contacted and were greeted and allowed to set up POS in a NULL area around CATCH. For the first several months, things were awesome, we were able to establish great relations with neighbors and apart from the off roam seemed to be fairly safe. We did the usual NULL stuff and were relatively happy.

THEN one day a small roam came into our system approx 4 reds, we thought awesome may be able to get some PvP going. So we created an equally small band (as that's all that were online at the time).. and sent a scout to find them. we found them at the gate (dead end system), and warped in at close range to engage... they were all superior again to us, had great tactics and optimal setup, but nether the less we attacked and slowly lost on attrician, and one by one we lost ships, one person lost a pod after getting bubbled when a inty came through the gate after we were getting popped. After we had been popped, and sitting back in out POS shield, the smack began, and again the insults started flying, I did comment "good fight, you got us this time...." but was recieved with "NOOB idiot, that will teach you, i'm going to r@pe your mom" etc etc.. then from that moment we were griefed in system by atleast 2 to 3 AFK cloakers 24/7. again we were unable to do any of our regular routines, and after two weeks started to complain and moan at CCP with tickets... nothing came of it. They didn't reply in local and eventually our lovely POS ended up with skeleton crew, just keeping it alive with fuel whilst the others went back to high sec. Other folk, blues in the system also started to give up, as the afk cloakies just caused such a disruptive upset.. Some point over night (uk time) we had been attacked and when I logged in the next day after coming back from work, everything in the system was in reinforced... and the same group had attacked everything. The time was ticking and i had all our corp members return back to the POS to ensure it was defended, so we went overboard and had our most expensive ships we could muster, we ended up with a nice battleship fleet backed up by logistics, interceptors. Was a fleet to behold... we had approx a fleet of 10 folks which was a record for us, and a couple of ships from our alliance friends, so 14 ships in total. So as count down began, so did adrenalyn and tensions... then at 15 mins before 0-time... a red appeared in system, he hadn't come through the gate as we had it bubbled / protected / guarded.. instead can only assume he logged in, straight to some random spot in the system... he started to LOL in local, and began the smack, and a couple of folks in the fleet took the bait and bit back and a cussing row ensued... it's wasn't a friendly affair, and more screen shots were taken and sent to CCP from this individual with exceptionally appauling conduct... (indicentally, nothing ever heard from CCP on it)... anyway, a couple of other folk logged in, and goaded us into confronting them... we didn't and the smack continued. at 0-time, two more reds appeared in system and a couple of ships started attacking our now out of shield POS, we attacked in force... then their other ships joined in the fray.. it was going well for us, both sides locked in somewhat even, fair fights and our logistic protected BS slowly started turning the tide and one of them popped, then the second popped... then out of nowhere another ship appeared in local, lit a cyno and hell rained from the heavens.. no fewer than 7 carriers and 3 dreads came in, two carriers hit triage and that was it game over. We pleaded in alliance for help, but at the time too few were online, and no help came.

Simply put because it is competitively advantageous to do ones' business in highsec, where things like CONCORD protection and wardec evasion exploits make PVP and PVP losses entirely optional and thus completely ignorable in the pursuit of capital. Other then technetium and capital ships, EVE is fiscally skewed considering net income to favor hisec in each and every way.

This is balanced by either increasing hisec risk (ban NPC corps, remove wardec exploits) or decreasing hisec reward. Since it's sov 0.0 content that is creating word of mouth and media coverage of EVE Online, CCP is tentatively starting to encourage the style of gameplay that is drawing in new players.

@Nicolo da'Vicenza

That will not get people to null sec space. Null sec needs reworked. As the poster before asked-"If 0.0 is so fabulous why are there so few there?"

Simple. Null sec is nothing but blob warfare any more. It has become stale and stagnate due to the way the game works in that area with it's many fail game mechanics. Destroying high sec to make low sec look more lucrative is not going to address the underlying issues that make null sec the way it is.

Dunno how well this argument is gonna fly, but IMO as far as casuals go, the biggest problem with losing ships constantly is not only the lost value, but the time and effort it takes to rebuild a new one. Even out in NPC 0.0 parts were often scattered over several systems or just plain hard to come by, and out in true 0.0 you had to pretty much have the skills for all tech 2 hardware, or good luck fitting your new ship.

So I guess my solution for making null space more appealing is for there to be pre-made ships. I know alot of corps and alliances already offer ship replacement and I'm assuming some have ready-made ships built on contract, but the vast majority are probably prefit for a skilled player. Maybe some industrialist could pump out typical t1 ship contracts already built, some with t2 equipment but others with t1 for newer players who won't be as skilled. Not only does it make it easy for players to get right back in the game instead of wasting time looking for parts to rebuild, the premade fits will teach newer players how to actually fit ships in a pvp environment.

Exactly, on one hand the null seccers whine because they say that they are not making enough ISK and that the risk vs reward between null and high sec is skewed in favor of high sec, yet the reality is, in null sec you can make bank in just a few hours. I think people want to move into null sec, but CCP has to address the issues that null and low sec have first.

You can make a lot of bank in a few hours. But you can also lose that 'bank' quite easily unless you regularly defend your space or agree to make rental payments. Having access to Technetium helps, but the majority of 0.0 space does not. Instead the rest of 0.0 run hisec incursions, or mine in hisec using PvE alts, and before that many ran l4 missions. That's on the individual level, not getting into the alliance level of manufacturing, purchasing, trading and researching all done in hisec through logistics alts which is the standard Technetium or no Technetium. This is why I keep bringing up 'net profit' instead of gross profit, because after reducing rent/time spent doing required non-PvE activities, the gap between high and null income is much different and this is why most people don't go for 0.0 life.