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Why are High-Sec Miners a "threat to EVE"?

Author
Francisco Bizzaro
#61 - 2012-05-14 13:02:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Francisco Bizzaro
Tor Gungnir wrote:
That's all well and good -except- (as claimed by an above poster) a battleship can reach 80% of the yield of an ORE barge with a lot more tank to back it up.

If that claim proves to be true, there are some serious issues here.

So can a covetor, at a fraction of the price of a hulk.

Where's the problem? If you know how to fly a hulk, then you deserve that extra 20%, and can afford it because you won't lose your hulk. If you don't, then there are excellent alternatives for you to practice with. Why is a hulk the only solution for players who want to AFK mine?
Sandra Vellocet
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2012-05-14 13:07:38 UTC
TheBlueMonkey wrote:
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Lexmana wrote:
Tor Gungnir wrote:
[Because Battleships were totally intended to be the main mining platform in EVE, right? The very fact that you have to use Battleships rather than ORE Barges/Exhumers just proves how...wrong.. the whole situation is.

No. You are wrong. A smart player tries to use the best equipment for the job at all times. That is not only based on yield or efficiency or you would se a lot more Marauders ratting in insecure nullsec. You also need to factor in security.


The point is that a dedicated mining ship should be the best equipment for the job. Otherwise, what's the point? Because of the low tank and increasing dickwad attitude towards miners, the ORE ships are glaringly unbalanced.

You want more tank, battleships have more tank. You want more yield, ORE ships have more yield.

The point is, you can't have it all. People have presented you tanky solutions, and you reject them. In other threads people (usually gankers, actually) have given excellent advice for how to tank a hulk - yet those are also ignored. And why is tanking the only solution to your problem? Tanking is only one aspect of flying a 300MISK ship safely.

This is why it is frustrating to write in these miner threads. No matter what advice is given, it is ignored because they seem to have such a narrow perspective on the problem and acceptable solutions. And those solutions basically amount to: "change the game to make it easier for me without any effort on my part."

In the miner's game, there is no challenge to overcome, no curiosity or creativity. It is brute force, bull headed plowing ahead in the simplest possible manner. And if that doesn't work then the game must be stacked against you.

It's an attitude that penalizes creativity, and actually kills the sandbox. Emergent gameplay - of which suicide ganking is an excellent example - disappears when every task is replaced by an optimal cookie-cutter solution that is handed to you by a dev. That uncreative, incurious, push-button-collect-reward play style that they are trying to bring to the game is why the current generation of hi-sec miners are a genuine threat to Eve.


couldn't agree more, on the rare ocasion where I mine, I'll do it in a tanked hulk (shield extender rigs, no mining upgrades) and I'll do it in low sec where we have lots of blues.

Any neutrals turn up and I'll doc up.

It's REALLY not difficult.


That's pretty much my mining tact as well, I'll tank my rig as much as possible and I can't remember a time where I have afk'd while mining before. I just fail to see why my mining is killing the game for everyone and why it upsets so manny people.
Lexmana
#63 - 2012-05-14 13:11:14 UTC
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:
In the miner's game, there is no challenge to overcome, no curiosity or creativity. It is brute force, bull headed plowing ahead in the simplest possible manner. And if that doesn't work then the game must be stacked against you.

It's an attitude that penalizes creativity, and actually kills the sandbox. Emergent gameplay - of which suicide ganking is an excellent example - disappears when every task is replaced by an optimal cookie-cutter solution that is handed to you by a dev. That uncreative, incurious, push-button-collect-reward play style that they are trying to bring to the game is why the current generation of hi-sec miners are a genuine threat to Eve.

I almost forgot what this thread was all about for all the trolling by OP but it was supposed to by about: "Why are High-Sec Miners a "threat to EVE"?"

I just wanted to make sure you didn't miss Bizzaros nice attempt to answer the question above.
Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
#64 - 2012-05-14 13:11:16 UTC
What would all the elite hi-sec pvp'ers do if there where no dangerous miners to attack Cry


Tal




betoli
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2012-05-14 13:11:49 UTC
TheBlueMonkey wrote:

Mining barges are on par with cruiser class ships, you can tell this by the rigs they use.

You need to level up you reading comprehention


No they aren't, they cost more.

If you want them to have parity like that they should cost the same.
TheBlueMonkey
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2012-05-14 13:12:51 UTC  |  Edited by: TheBlueMonkey
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Lexmana wrote:
Tor Gungnir wrote:
[Because Battleships were totally intended to be the main mining platform in EVE, right? The very fact that you have to use Battleships rather than ORE Barges/Exhumers just proves how...wrong.. the whole situation is.

No. You are wrong. A smart player tries to use the best equipment for the job at all times. That is not only based on yield or efficiency or you would se a lot more Marauders ratting in insecure nullsec. You also need to factor in security.


The point is that a dedicated mining ship should be the best equipment for the job. Otherwise, what's the point? Because of the low tank and increasing dickwad attitude towards miners, the ORE ships are glaringly unbalanced.

You want more tank, battleships have more tank. You want more yield, ORE ships have more yield. I



That's all well and good -except- (as claimed by an above poster) a battleship can reach 80% of the yield of an ORE barge with a lot more tank to back it up.

If that claim proves to be true, there are some serious issues here.



can I just point out the following

Mass of ships
Hulk - 40,000,000 kg
Rokh - 105,300,000 kg

so the hulk in theory "should" be tanked similar to a ship that's half the size of a bs.

Also,
The osprey (a cruiser) has a mass of 11,230,000 kg so the hulk should be more tanked like a cruiser than a BS


Hulks are T2 so at least compare them to T2 ships, like command ships (eos for example) which is ha a mass of 13,250,000 kg and costs 270mil in Jita.
betoli
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2012-05-14 13:14:34 UTC
Lexmana wrote:
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:
In the miner's game, there is no challenge to overcome, no curiosity or creativity. It is brute force, bull headed plowing ahead in the simplest possible manner. And if that doesn't work then the game must be stacked against you.

It's an attitude that penalizes creativity, and actually kills the sandbox. Emergent gameplay - of which suicide ganking is an excellent example - disappears when every task is replaced by an optimal cookie-cutter solution that is handed to you by a dev. That uncreative, incurious, push-button-collect-reward play style that they are trying to bring to the game is why the current generation of hi-sec miners are a genuine threat to Eve.

I almost forgot what this thread was all about for all the trolling by OP but it was supposed to by about: "Why are High-Sec Miners a "threat to EVE"?"

I just wanted to make sure you didn't miss Bizzaros nice attempt to answer the question above.


Its a good answer, but unfortuanately it isn't miners fault that mining is crap - there's plenty of threads asking CCP to make mining better.

OK So why mine, they should just GTFO right? Except if they do, the cost of PVP goes through the ceiling and people will leave in droves.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#68 - 2012-05-14 13:29:36 UTC
TheBlueMonkey wrote:
The osprey (a cruiser) has a mass of 11,230,000 kg so the hulk should be more tanked like a cruiser than a BS

Hulks are T2 so at least compare them to T2 ships, like command ships (eos for example) which is ha a mass of 13,250,000 kg and costs 270mil in Jita.


The Basilisk (a T2 cruiser) does its job perfectly well with 5/1 transfers in the highslots, an afterburner in a mid slot, and 30k EHP buffer (and the Basilisk has no bonus to shield resists). A max tanked Hulk that is still somewhat capable of mining gets 30k EHP, but is a heavier slower ship. A comparable battlecruiser (Drake, 5% bonus per level to shield resists) will have a 90k EHP buffer, while equipped with a MWD and point.

In order to fit into the spread of ship types out there you'd expect a Hulk to be able to fit a 30k EHP buffer while still having "DPS" modules (i.e.: one or two MLUs). Remember that there is no "escorting" a ship: there is only GTFO when non-blues enter local. Watching D-scan is a noble aim, but you have to spam it for it to be useful, and I'm sure the servers would prefer that you didn't do that.

When it comes to GTFO-ability, the hulk would really benefit from having a far lower maximum speed than it presently does. Thus if the strip miners lowered the maximum speed you could still slow-boat into position, then turn on the strip miners while aligning to your escape point. As soon as you see unknowns on d-scan, warp out.

You can fit a bait bestower or a battle badger, but not a bait Hulk. There's something wrong with that picture Lol
Lexmana
#69 - 2012-05-14 13:36:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexmana
Mara Rinn wrote:
You can fit a bait bestower or a battle badger, but not a bait Hulk. There's something wrong with that picture Lol


But you can fit a battle hulk. I found this on battleclininc (19.2k EHP and 158dps):

[Hulk, Battle Hulk]

Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Modulated Strip Miner II

Warp Scrambler II
Stasis Webifier II
Stasis Webifier II
Medium Shield Extender II

Damage Control II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core I

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Drone Durability Enhancer I

Hammerhead II x5

And this one is also interesting (24k EHP, 26K EHP with overheat and +218HP/s):

[Hulk, Bait Hulk]
Damage Control II
Reinforced Bulkheads II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 200
Medium Shield Booster II

Salvager I
Strip Miner I
Strip Miner I

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

Hammerhead II x5
TheBlueMonkey
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2012-05-14 13:43:39 UTC  |  Edited by: TheBlueMonkey
Mara Rinn wrote:
TheBlueMonkey wrote:
The osprey (a cruiser) has a mass of 11,230,000 kg so the hulk should be more tanked like a cruiser than a BS

Hulks are T2 so at least compare them to T2 ships, like command ships (eos for example) which is ha a mass of 13,250,000 kg and costs 270mil in Jita.


The Basilisk (a T2 cruiser) does its job perfectly well with 5/1 transfers in the highslots, an afterburner in a mid slot, and 30k EHP buffer (and the Basilisk has no bonus to shield resists). A max tanked Hulk that is still somewhat capable of mining gets 30k EHP, but is a heavier slower ship. A comparable battlecruiser (Drake, 5% bonus per level to shield resists) will have a 90k EHP buffer, while equipped with a MWD and point.

In order to fit into the spread of ship types out there you'd expect a Hulk to be able to fit a 30k EHP buffer while still having "DPS" modules (i.e.: one or two MLUs). Remember that there is no "escorting" a ship: there is only GTFO when non-blues enter local. Watching D-scan is a noble aim, but you have to spam it for it to be useful, and I'm sure the servers would prefer that you didn't do that.

When it comes to GTFO-ability, the hulk would really benefit from having a far lower maximum speed than it presently does. Thus if the strip miners lowered the maximum speed you could still slow-boat into position, then turn on the strip miners while aligning to your escape point. As soon as you see unknowns on d-scan, warp out.

You can fit a bait bestower or a battle badger, but not a bait Hulk. There's something wrong with that picture Lol



Firstly, for the Basilisk to work properly, it needs a buddy so they can spider cap transfer, otherwise it's somewhat useless especially as the lone logistics ship will be primary.

Secondly,
Ships should be geared for their purpose as we see with things like the Tier 3 BCs.
Huge range - limited DPS, limited tank
Huge damage - limited range, limited tank

There's that trade off, you want more mining yield, something has to give and I think the tank is a fair trade.
Ok, a thrasher can pop a no tank hulk but can it pop a tanked hulk? unlikely.

People were complaining that a fraighter has a greater tank, but them in that instance it's not about gankingthe ship for mods, it's about ganking it for what it's carrying.

I donno, I've lost interest now as I do with most mining threads.

Ultimately my view is
Hulks, working as intended, players need to stop being stupid.

As for id highsec miners are breaking eve or blah blah blah, as long as I have cheap ships to explode, I don't care.


oh, that was the other thing
http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/45053-EPIC-PvP-Hulk.html

Also,
There was a storey a while back on evenews about an alliance\corp ( forget which) cruising about in a 20man hulk gang and people were running from them.

There have been numerous people pvping solo in hulks and hell, even I've killed someone while I was in a covetor.
Proof http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=11325173

Maybe the game's not entirely broken and it's actually some of the players that are too.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#71 - 2012-05-14 13:48:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
TheBlueMonkey wrote:
Hulks are T2 so at least compare them to T2 ships, like command ships (eos for example) which is ha a mass of 13,250,000 kg and costs 270mil in Jita.


Typical tanked Hulk has a bit less buffer than Vengeance.

300+ million vs 18 million.
TheBlueMonkey
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2012-05-14 14:08:31 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
TheBlueMonkey wrote:
Hulks are T2 so at least compare them to T2 ships, like command ships (eos for example) which is ha a mass of 13,250,000 kg and costs 270mil in Jita.


Typical tanked Hulk has a bit less buffer than Vengeance.

300+ million vs 18 million.


I'll conceed that as a rebuttle but the whole arguement still seems to revolve around

"My Ducati 848 goes way faster than my Ausa CH320, buff the Ausa CH320!!!"
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#73 - 2012-05-14 14:18:43 UTC
TheBlueMonkey wrote:
I'll conceed that as a rebuttle but the whole arguement still seems to revolve around

"My Ducati 848 goes way faster than my Ausa CH320, buff the Ausa CH320!!!"


Well, if you say that Hulk is well balanced because it costs the same as command ships but you forget that even a frigate can tank more than Hulk.

Typical tanked Hulk: 21-23k EHP
Vengeance: 26k EHP
Lexmana
#74 - 2012-05-14 14:20:19 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
TheBlueMonkey wrote:
Hulks are T2 so at least compare them to T2 ships, like command ships (eos for example) which is ha a mass of 13,250,000 kg and costs 270mil in Jita.


Typical tanked Hulk has a bit less buffer than Vengeance.

300+ million vs 18 million.

I can do that too:

A typical (fail) tanked Hulk has 15x the buffer of an Interbus Shuttle.
300 million vs 1 Billion.
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
#75 - 2012-05-14 14:21:40 UTC
DeadDuck wrote:
Miners are not a threat to eve.

People are shooting them because they are very easy targets, thats all.


Yep, this is the reality. Probably because there's no engaging game play to be had in places where low-level/small group PvP should be taking place, like low sec. You don't need a blob to get a miner kill. Miner's don't play station games and all the other crap that irritates the vocal PvP posters.
Bootleg Jack
ACME Mineral and Gas
#76 - 2012-05-14 14:27:36 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Mainly because said miners often tend to be the ones who are clamouring for the removal of some of EVE's core design features (viz. universal, omnipresent, non-consensual PvP), commonly coupled with oddball demands based on a staggering unawareness of economy 101.


Agreed, however being the only profession in EVE that has an annual event dedicated to ganking them might have something to do with that yes? Lol

I'm an American, English is my second language...

Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#77 - 2012-05-14 14:27:53 UTC
Lexmana wrote:
I can do that too:

A typical (fail) tanked Hulk has 15x the buffer of an Interbus Shuttle.
300 million vs 1 Billion.


Except:

Hulk with shield booster /= tanked Hulk
The Sardukar
Astrotech Industries Ltd
#78 - 2012-05-14 14:39:02 UTC  |  Edited by: The Sardukar
Tippia wrote:
TriadSte wrote:
The only people who whine about anything high sec is null sec alliances.
Not really, no. Plenty of highsec players also complain about highsec.


Plenty of characters in highsec corps complain about highsec. Wheter they are truly higsec players is debatable. A large portion of highsec characters are just alts of players residing in null or lowsec. These also tend to be those hard core players who really cares the most about (their vision for) EVE. Personally I think the real 100% highsec players are in minority on these forums.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#79 - 2012-05-14 14:53:42 UTC
The Sardukar wrote:
Tippia wrote:
TriadSte wrote:
The only people who whine about anything high sec is null sec alliances.
Not really, no. Plenty of highsec players also complain about highsec.


Plenty of characters in highsec corps complain about highsec. Wheter they are truly higsec players is debatable. A large portion of highsec characters are just alts of players residing in null or lowsec. These also tend to be those hard core players who really cares the most about (their vision for) EVE. Personally I think the real 100% highsec players are in minority on these forums.


Yes, they are busy playing the game instead of crying on the forums.
Nephilius
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#80 - 2012-05-14 17:20:04 UTC
Why? Because no matter how many times you are warned about things like Hulkageddon and Ice interdictions, you just keep plugging away. And then, when your ship erupts in a fuzzy fireball, you get all butthurt. You cry about things like minding your own business and 'without warning'...you had all the warnings in the world and you refuse to heed them. It's like being in the direct path of a hurricane (no pun intended) and refusing to budge from your home. And then when you are chest deep in water, you cry. For help. For pity. For whatever sad reason that you feel that we should listen to.

Those who participate in these events are not your enemy...you are your own worst enemy. You would do well to remember that.
"If."