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JITA STATION TRADING: an example
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leocaldari
leo's Corp
#1 - 2012-05-14 11:30:56 UTC  |  Edited by: leocaldari
Eifyr and Co. 'Rogue' Acceleration Control AC-603
Inherent Implants 'Squire' Engineering EG-603
Zainou 'Gypsy' Electronics EE-603


a few keynotes for station trading


don't trade items which can be produced by players

take ONE item for trading

calculation for your budget: daily average volume * average price *2

max 50% of investment in stock

don't go significant below 50% cash of your budget

station trading is PvP -> kick out all other traders

study the market of your item

station trading is a long term run also if you are doing day-trading stuff

it takes up to 6 month to get full control
Dangra Mu'zgob
Parasitic Trading Systems
#2 - 2012-05-14 12:12:08 UTC
Come on, Leo, just be serious...

There are various approaches to station trading. You don't have to focus on just 1 item . As a station trader you can profit on playermade items as well as on NPC seedded/dropped ones using various strategies. Trading is more about finding a 'hole' in the markets rather than eliminating all other traders. Its constant and neverending process of optimalization and adaptation to constantly changing conditions rather than just "focus 6 months on 1 item and dominate".

Trading for living / living for trading.

Alt of Shangra Mu'zgob
leocaldari
leo's Corp
#3 - 2012-05-14 12:59:50 UTC
Dangra Mu'zgob wrote:
Come on, Leo, just be serious...

There are various approaches to station trading. You don't have to focus on just 1 item . As a station trader you can profit on playermade items as well as on NPC seedded/dropped ones using various strategies. Trading is more about finding a 'hole' in the markets rather than eliminating all other traders. Its constant and neverending process of optimalization and adaptation to constantly changing conditions rather than just "focus 6 months on 1 item and dominate".


I'm serious.

important questions
how much time can/will you invest every day for trading?
how much time do you have to invest in trading to get a guarantee profit of 1 billion ISK per month?
Armed Maniac
Noticeably Insane Miners' League
#4 - 2012-05-14 13:07:54 UTC
Or you could do it in a way that doesn't limit your profit to the number of trades on a single item.

Search the market for any item that sells for a higher price than people are buying, place a buy order, then resell it with a sell order when you get a few of them. You make wahtever the margin is from buy to sell and you can do it on as many items as you can stand (or are limited by your total number of open market orders).

Also your strategy can be beat by someone doing the above since there would have to still be some margin, and a smaller margin is acceptable to someone who is trading on 100 items instead of your 1 item. (assuming you were serious which I doubt.)
Rykker Bow
Center for Advanced Studies
#5 - 2012-05-14 13:14:56 UTC
Agreed with Dangra here.

Diversity is key in hedging against fluctuations in market prices.
You can also profit from many different items including other traders.
There will always be traders where there is profit so while it's good strategy to make it difficult for other traders to operate its pointless to try to remove all of them

I took this as an elaborate post on misinformation as there is no one specific set of strategies for trading. There are a multitude of different tools to use in different situations; some even contradict each other depending on the situation

The Mjolnir Bloc - Lowsec PvP for the sophisticated - The Mjolnir Bloc Killboards
leocaldari
leo's Corp
#6 - 2012-05-14 13:15:59 UTC
Armed Maniac wrote:
Or you could do it in a way that doesn't limit your profit to the number of trades on a single item.

Search the market for any item that sells for a higher price than people are buying, place a buy order, then resell it with a sell order when you get a few of them. You make wahtever the margin is from buy to sell and you can do it on as many items as you can stand (or are limited by your total number of open market orders).

Also your strategy can be beat by someone doing the above since there would have to still be some margin, and a smaller margin is acceptable to someone who is trading on 100 items instead of your 1 item. (assuming you were serious which I doubt.)


how can I handle 100 items when I have 10 min/ day to manage my trading stuff and I need 1 billion isk per month?
Doggfather san
420 Enterprises.
#7 - 2012-05-14 13:20:17 UTC
Rather than trying to oversimplify it check out our trading blog.

1 billion isk in 6 week.

http://420enterprises.com
Rykker Bow
Center for Advanced Studies
#8 - 2012-05-14 13:24:55 UTC
Or even 100b in 15 weeks

Time in game is obviously a factor. But other equally important points are logistics, reinvestment, research and logistics logistics logistics.

The Mjolnir Bloc - Lowsec PvP for the sophisticated - The Mjolnir Bloc Killboards
Armed Maniac
Noticeably Insane Miners' League
#9 - 2012-05-14 13:28:25 UTC
leocaldari wrote:

how can I handle 100 items when I have 10 min/ day to manage my trading stuff and I need 1 billion isk per month?


You probably can't make 1b isk per month in 10 min per day. It doesn't matter what you are trading, everyone would start to do it as well because of the profit and then the margins would sink. (I'm not saying it can't be done, but it wouldn't be easy)

I made 1b in my first month and a half of trading with 100m initial investment, but it took 30 minutes 3 times a day to do it.



If you really want to try to make that kind of money I think you would have to get into the speculation market, buy something that you know the price is going to go up, then sell it when it does. This is risky and takes a lot of research. You could also try to buy things cheap then sell them on the weekend when everyone plays, but that takes research as well to know what items to buy and at what price, which is a smaller form of speculation. (speculation = risk, so you could lose money doing this.)
Dangra Mu'zgob
Parasitic Trading Systems
#10 - 2012-05-14 13:29:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Dangra Mu'zgob
Most time consuming part for me is time necessary to take actions based on decisions supported by computer-refined data. It's 2012 - you can use machines&3rd party tools to gather/analyze market data. It's hard to tell if it will guarantee you 1B/month but i found what suits to me and belive it or not - it works and it's fun. (long story short: i started as a hauler, after couple of weeks moved to Jita , 300 orders changed 2x-3x/day, burned out after 14 days...). It is possible to not-babysit orders and still make decent profit...

Trading for living / living for trading.

Alt of Shangra Mu'zgob
leocaldari
leo's Corp
#11 - 2012-05-14 13:29:25 UTC
Rykker Bow wrote:
Or even 100b in 15 weeks

Time in game is obviously a factor. But other equally important points are logistics, reinvestment, research and logistics logistics logistics.



I completely disagree.

I'm doing station trading in jita.
so I don't need anything else than the market and trading methods to get money from the market.

market=jita only

I really don't understand why you are repeating logistic so much
I never leave the station in jita
leocaldari
leo's Corp
#12 - 2012-05-14 13:41:25 UTC
Dangra Mu'zgob wrote:
Most time consuming part for me is time necessary to take actions based on decisions supported by computer-refined data. It's 2012 - you can use machines&3rd party tools to gather/analyze market data. It's hard to tell if it will guarantee you 1B/month but i found what suits to me and belive it or not - it works and it's fun. (long story short: i started as a hauler, after couple of weeks moved to Jita , 300 orders changed 2x-3x/day, burned out after 14 days...). It is possible to not-babysit orders and still make decent profit...


you don't need this kind of information.
it is useless and waste of time for me.

BUY, SELL, VOLUME and STRATEGY

that's it.
Mu-Shi Ai
Hosono House
#13 - 2012-05-14 13:52:40 UTC
A whole 1bn ISK per month? I'm impressed!
Johnny Frecko
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2012-05-14 14:05:38 UTC
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1271117#post1271117

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1271110#post1271110

your comments on both of these posts show me that you're either a troll or just refuse to accept any information given to you by people who are obviously more experienced than you.

If you only have 10 minutes a day, you can handle 30 items with ease. I did it when i started.
you don't need to update all of them all the time, and frankly in jita if you update ONCE A DAY, you get outbid within around.. hmm, 10-20 minutes. leaving 22 out of the 23 game hours pretty much dead to you.

you actually have a higher chacne of making isk playing 10 times a day for 1 minute at a time. update the single item you have and get out.

But if you want to invest in one single item, without hauling, without worrying about logistics, without undocking.
Go for it. When the bubble crashs around you and you lose all your precious iskies make sure to post here.
Case in point people who were invested heavily and only in meta 4 items took a serious hit the last couple of weeks.

But what do we know, You want to talk to a serious jita trader and not a bunch of people who don't know anything they're talking about.
Rykker Bow
Center for Advanced Studies
#15 - 2012-05-14 14:07:16 UTC
leocaldari wrote:

I completely disagree.

I'm doing station trading in jita.
so I don't need anything else than the market and trading methods to get money from the market.

market=jita only

I really don't understand why you are repeating logistic so much
I never leave the station in jita


I've done a little Jita trading myself but good luck to you in reaching the upper echelons of station trading.

The repeats on logistics is for emphasis. Logistics is all aspects of making operations run smoothly, not just transportation

The Mjolnir Bloc - Lowsec PvP for the sophisticated - The Mjolnir Bloc Killboards
Liberty Eternal
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2012-05-14 14:12:10 UTC
This approach to trading is a meticulous one, it's very effective I've seen it in action and used it myself [or at least, my own less analytical version] Blink
leocaldari
leo's Corp
#17 - 2012-05-14 14:18:29 UTC
Johnny Frecko wrote:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1271117#post1271117

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1271110#post1271110

your comments on both of these posts show me that you're either a troll or just refuse to accept any information given to you by people who are obviously more experienced than you.

If you only have 10 minutes a day, you can handle 30 items with ease. I did it when i started.
you don't need to update all of them all the time, and frankly in jita if you update ONCE A DAY, you get outbid within around.. hmm, 10-20 minutes. leaving 22 out of the 23 game hours pretty much dead to you.

you actually have a higher chacne of making isk playing 10 times a day for 1 minute at a time. update the single item you have and get out.

But if you want to invest in one single item, without hauling, without worrying about logistics, without undocking.
Go for it. When the bubble crashs around you and you lose all your precious iskies make sure to post here.
Case in point people who were invested heavily and only in meta 4 items took a serious hit the last couple of weeks.

But what do we know, You want to talk to a serious jita trader and not a bunch of people who don't know anything they're talking about.


I'm running this game since 4 years
I know exactly what I'm doing.

so far I have no real personal benefit to publish anything on this forum.

it is just for people who are interested in things they have never seen before.
leocaldari
leo's Corp
#18 - 2012-05-14 14:22:33 UTC
so far i don't know if this item is a good one

unfortunately CCP has killed all meta 4 items for this kind of trading with inferno

so I cannot use any meta 4 item for this example

meta4 items were perfect to get up to 5 bilion ISK/month per item.
but it is now history.
cigarellos
#19 - 2012-05-14 14:38:48 UTC
Armed Maniac wrote:
You probably can't make 1b isk per month in 10 min per day. It doesn't matter what you are trading, everyone would start to do it as well because of the profit and then the margins would sink. (I'm not saying it can't be done, but it wouldn't be easy)


You need 5 minutes on Technetium and 5 minutes on PLEX. The important thing to remember is you need a considerable ammount of ISK so you can make a good 200-500m on every bulk trade. It is very possible to make more than 1B a month with only 10 minutes a day.

leocaldari wrote:
Dangra Mu'zgob wrote:
Most time consuming part for me is time necessary to take actions based on decisions supported by computer-refined data. It's 2012 - you can use machines&3rd party tools to gather/analyze market data. It's hard to tell if it will guarantee you 1B/month but i found what suits to me and belive it or not - it works and it's fun. (long story short: i started as a hauler, after couple of weeks moved to Jita , 300 orders changed 2x-3x/day, burned out after 14 days...). It is possible to not-babysit orders and still make decent profit...


you don't need this kind of information.
it is useless and waste of time for me.

BUY, SELL, VOLUME and STRATEGY

that's it.


I have to agree with leocaldari here. Yes, you can sink yourself in a mountain of spreadsheets and calculations but it's unnecessary and boring in my opinion. I started using a market list and margin spreadsheet myself at the beginning. Now I don't even use a pen or paper. If you get a boner for all that, go for it I guess. EVE-PROFIT does everything automatically with nice reporting too and that's about the only thing I use. As for the 300 orders, I only have Trading level 5 which amounts to 25 max orders.

Johnny Frecko wrote:
If you only have 10 minutes a day, you can handle 30 items with ease. I did it when i started.
you don't need to update all of them all the time, and frankly in jita if you update ONCE A DAY, you get outbid within around.. hmm, 10-20 minutes. leaving 22 out of the 23 game hours pretty much dead to you.


Yes you get outbid but prices fluctuate 100% of the time and nothing is static. What goes up comes down or vice versa. With those 2 items I mentioned at the beginning you can easily set a nice buy order at the top and come the next day and I'll guarantee it will be filled.
leocaldari
leo's Corp
#20 - 2012-05-14 14:41:16 UTC
for anybody who is thinking I'm a troll: look into the Attribute Enhancer
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