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New Dev Blog: Time Dilation Video Demo

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AMirrorDarkly
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium
#161 - 2011-10-02 12:07:35 UTC  |  Edited by: AMirrorDarkly
Well I think this is an awesome first step.

If someone has covered this then please correct me, on lunch break on a sunday can't really read all the posts for detail.

I read that fuel/timers will not adjust due to time dialation....

I can already see the tatics forming (won't mention who we all know the guilty party will be here)

BUT.

I can see node warfare coming up, fleets of drakes engaging each other while remote repping each other just to Time dilate a node preventing haulers in another system being able to refuel/re-stront an enemy tower.

I can see this being used to interupt logistics and industrial assets without even needing to be in system to do it.

So @ Dev's How will you be looking at preventing this sort of griefing dare I ask? :D

Apart from that I love what you have done, but being a player I can already see it being taken advantage of beyond it's initial purpose.

EDIT: Oh one more thing, would it be possible to get a gate message.... you are about to jump into a time dilated system (like low-sec warning..... Particularly with cyno's :)
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#162 - 2011-10-02 12:17:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Grimpak
there is only one thing I have to ask about and that is how far the limit was raised with TiDi?
as in, what's the theoredical limit to a battle running with TiDi at full strength?


don't get me wrong, this is a very good feature and I totally agree with it, but I can't shake that nagging feeling that this will only buy time. I hope that you guys don't forget to further improve server code and structure.Cool

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Gaia Ma'chello
Photosynth
#163 - 2011-10-02 13:24:53 UTC
AMirrorDarkly wrote:

...........

I can see node warfare coming up, fleets of drakes engaging each other while remote repping each other just to Time dilate a node preventing haulers in another system being able to refuel/re-stront an enemy tower.


They can do that now. Just lag the node out. The hauler would jump in, see a black screen, get a time out DC, log in and repeat, over and over, and never get to the tower.

At least with TiDi the hauler will get to the tower. It may take 30 minutes of real time, but that's better than looking at a black screen.

Eventually CCP will get dynamic re-mapping. With that they can put a system that is seeing TiDi on its own node.
AMirrorDarkly
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium
#164 - 2011-10-02 13:59:48 UTC
Gaia Ma'chello wrote:
AMirrorDarkly wrote:

...........

I can see node warfare coming up, fleets of drakes engaging each other while remote repping each other just to Time dilate a node preventing haulers in another system being able to refuel/re-stront an enemy tower.


They can do that now. Just lag the node out. The hauler would jump in, see a black screen, get a time out DC, log in and repeat, over and over, and never get to the tower.

At least with TiDi the hauler will get to the tower. It may take 30 minutes of real time, but that's better than looking at a black screen.

Eventually CCP will get dynamic re-mapping. With that they can put a system that is seeing TiDi on its own node.



True enough it is an improvement to be sure.

I'm vauge about how nodes work exactly (as in which systems go to which node) without knowing the architechture which I do not believe CCP has published, it is hard to tell is it not, which systems are on which nodes?

I'm aware it is often adjacent systems, but you can get where I'm going now. Used to be you needed to basically bog down the system in question to be sure of sucessfully picking the correct node...

Now with a little dialator icon on screen it becomes much easier to tell, which systems you need to dilate with a bit of reverse mapping...

But yeah I can see what you are saying now at least you can refuel, but at the same time it becomes easier to locate and isolate which systems need stressing to make that harder.

Gaia Ma'chello
Photosynth
#165 - 2011-10-02 14:01:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Gaia Ma'chello
Grimpak wrote:
there is only one thing I have to ask about and that is how far the limit was raised with TiDi?
as in, what's the theoredical limit to a battle running with TiDi at full strength?


don't get me wrong, this is a very good feature and I totally agree with it, but I can't shake that nagging feeling that this will only buy time. I hope that you guys don't forget to further improve server code and structure.


CCP Veritas has said that a present the limit of TiDi is set to 10%, one tenth speed. He has also said that currently 800 ships is the limit before the server gets overloaded, and server load grows with ship count between linearly and quadratically.

Put all those numbers together and it looks like around 3000 ships is needed to get to 10% TiDi. More ships than that and we start getting "bad" server lag. Note that both those numbers, 800 and 3000, assume a fight.

Hopefully as Team Gridlock keeps working the 800 and 3000 ship count values (for the start of TiDi and its limit) will increase and we will get cool looking plots like this: http://eve-files.com/dl/248128
Havak Kouvo
Doomheim
#166 - 2011-10-02 14:11:35 UTC
So if say the system is dilated, will things still move at 30fps if my system could handle it?

I'd think so, but the fact the camera moves slower is making me worried.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#167 - 2011-10-02 14:21:25 UTC
Oops.

In a few posts I suggested that the amount of TiDi we have should be called Gamma as Gamma is used in Relativity for the amount of dilation. Then I remembered something and checked it out.

I was defining Gamma wrong. In Relativity Gamma starts at 1.0 and increases as you get close to the speed of light. Its defined as:

Gamma = 1 / ( 1 - v^2 / c^2 )^0.5

An object moving near light speed has its mass increased by a factor of Gamma, and its clock runs slower by a factor of Gamma, relative to the stationary observer.

Anyway, its not how CCP Veritas defines TiDi, so Gamma is out.

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Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#168 - 2011-10-02 14:26:55 UTC
Havak Kouvo wrote:
So if say the system is dilated, will things still move at 30fps if my system could handle it?

I'd think so, but the fact the camera moves slower is making me worried.


I did not check numbers, but in the test I normally am looking at a slide show during the big fight. But with TiDi I was not. It may actually help FPS as your computer is getting less information from the server.

Also although the camera is slowed, its not slowed by the full TiDi amount. It actually was surprisingly natural.

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Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#169 - 2011-10-02 14:39:11 UTC
Gaia Ma'chello wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
there is only one thing I have to ask about and that is how far the limit was raised with TiDi?
as in, what's the theoredical limit to a battle running with TiDi at full strength?


don't get me wrong, this is a very good feature and I totally agree with it, but I can't shake that nagging feeling that this will only buy time. I hope that you guys don't forget to further improve server code and structure.


CCP Veritas has said that a present the limit of TiDi is set to 10%, one tenth speed. He has also said that currently 800 ships is the limit before the server gets overloaded, and server load grows with ship count between linearly and quadratically.

Put all those numbers together and it looks like around 3000 ships is needed to get to 10% TiDi. More ships than that and we start getting "bad" server lag. Note that both those numbers, 800 and 3000, assume a fight.

Hopefully as Team Gridlock keeps working the 800 and 3000 ship count values (for the start of TiDi and its limit) will increase and we will get cool looking plots like this: http://eve-files.com/dl/248128



cool. just hope CCP continues to work on the server itself so that it can improve and thus lowering the bar even further.

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Ein Spiegel
Fly-by-Night Industries LLC PTY LTD
#170 - 2011-10-02 16:01:56 UTC
This may be something already out there, but...

How does Time Dilation deal with command "stacking"... for example, you're FC'ing a drake blob. So the damage isn't going to be instantaneous; you say "Primary that Wyvern" (or whatever) and watch as the missiles launch and the system gracefully slows down to squeeze all the cinematic glory out of that hellstorm of missiles. As FC, you now have time to casually browse the overview and notice someone just decloaked a covops coming up behind you. You pull your camera around, and notice that unmistakable new cyno effect in its infancy blossoming.

You (as FC) start spewing orders out as your fleet is going to be hotdropped just as soon as the appropriate clock ticks happen. As a fleet member, now, those commands start getting done (align to x, warp to planet, no cancel warp, lock covops, fire, no warp out, no ARRRRMOR HAACSSSSSS!!!)

I'm sure FCs will require some adjusting to their methodology - time dilation suddenly opens up a lot more time to second guess yourself or to get better situational awareness (and there's nothing that can be done about it; we can't dilate players... yet) but in the meantime, I am assuming that command queuing itself isn't going to be dilated... Is it possible for the player to break the time dilation's command queues? Is it a simple FIFO stack popping off commands as they are added into the system?

While typing, I realize this is going to make for some really benny hill moments - until FCs adjust - when two FCs make decisions that get to play out in slow motion but were still being screamed out at their fleets when response time mattered - when seconds mattered more because they were directly tied to real seconds. (Response time will still matter, of course - but I think FCs should be trending towards slightly more calm than we are used to hearing.)
Acks
RONA Corporation
#171 - 2011-10-02 21:09:01 UTC
FIrst of all let me state for those who do not know me that I am not a CCP fan boy and rarely have a kind word for the direction of EVE in the last 2-3 years.

That being said I would like to take a moment to issue, IMHO, some very well deserved praise:

Time Dilation is an example of what, I believe, the EVE community is looking for from CCP. TD while not the "perfect world" solution, is none the less a VERY elegant solution to a very long standing and difficult technical issue in EVE. It is extremely refreshing to see a tangible fix / resolution to a long standing issue like this.

While not all issues in EVE can be tackled as directly or "easily", this type of out of the box thinking and demonstrable results is what, at our core, we all want. From initially describing the concept to us to this tangible demonstration was, for CCP, a fast turnaround.


Most importantly I would like to personally thank CCP Veritas for owning this thread and taking the time to be so actively engaged. It is very refreshing to see this level of CIVIL interaction from someone at CCP.

In summary: Thank you for your efforts in resolving this issue. Thank you for taking the time to engage with and answer the questions from us the end users.

Please keep up the good work.

ACKS
RONA Corporation
RONA Directorate
Reten Kip
Everset Dropbears
#172 - 2011-10-03 02:46:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Reten Kip
Lors Dornick wrote:

No, as has been explained several times over, the current codebase doesn't allow clustering or sharing server load of anything smaller than one system.

A design decision taken way back in the dark ages of EvE development. And not an easy one to correct without _massive_ amounts of rewrites, and most most likely a likewise massive amount of new wierd bugs ...


They really, REALLY, need to rewrite it in a good language. It's not like time dilation will be without bugs anyway. The first time it activates on Tranquility, the node will probably explode and take out the whole game (and remove your boot.ini at the same time). I'm just basing this on CCP's history.

This time dilation mechanic is an excellent way to address overloading. Now they need to rewrite the code base so it doesn't get overloaded with more than ten ships on the grid.
Debir Achen
Makiriemi Holdings
#173 - 2011-10-03 05:50:44 UTC
On player response times:

(1) Yes, on a dilated node you will have more RL time to analyse and respond to the tactical situation, which will slightly advantage some ships and tactics over others. That said, this is a Hek of an improvement over being completely unable to make meaningful decisions because your information and orders are being processed out-of-order and every which way up.

(2) But I'm not sure the extra time will make that much difference. If you don't know what to do, the main difference between 1s and 5s is how much panic you get to experience before it's too late. Good FCs seem to be always thinking three or four steps ahead of the current situation, and communicating this accordingly. If it only takes everyone else 0.5 seconds to apply the order, a dliated node simply means more time to watch your well-planned action play out.

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Xylorn Hasher
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#174 - 2011-10-03 08:08:07 UTC
Wait... no lag?

Does it mean we can finally put hundreds of drones on gate to uncloak cloakers without breaking EULA ??

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Kadeyaa
State War Academy
Caldari State
#175 - 2011-10-03 13:48:52 UTC
I can see so many ways how this can (and will) be abused.

Large alliances will be intentionally dilating systems to slow down reinforcements, to get more time bringing in their own forces, to screw with trading hubs (Just imagine Jita being at max time dilation 24/7), etc.

This would not be hard to do. Just have a couple hundred or thousand members fire up an alt, undock in a drake and shoot each other so nobody dies, but time dilation takes full effect because of the massive amounts of missiles flying around.

Hopefully this will be a lowsec/0.0/WH feature only. Most large scale engagements happen there anyway, and there's just too many ways how people can abuse this to totally mess with large hub areas or in other yet-unconceivable-ways.


While I certainly agree it's a step in the right direction, it has great potential for abuse.
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#176 - 2011-10-03 14:15:47 UTC
Debir Achen wrote:
On player response times:

(1) Yes, on a dilated node you will have more RL time to analyse and respond to the tactical situation, which will slightly advantage some ships and tactics over others. That said, this is a Hek of an improvement over being completely unable to make meaningful decisions because your information and orders are being processed out-of-order and every which way up.

(2) But I'm not sure the extra time will make that much difference. If you don't know what to do, the main difference between 1s and 5s is how much panic you get to experience before it's too late. Good FCs seem to be always thinking three or four steps ahead of the current situation, and communicating this accordingly. If it only takes everyone else 0.5 seconds to apply the order, a dliated node simply means more time to watch your well-planned action play out.
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ThisIsntMyMain
Doomheim
#177 - 2011-10-03 14:33:47 UTC
Kadeyaa wrote:
I can see so many ways how this can (and will) be abused.

Large alliances will be intentionally dilating systems to slow down reinforcements, to get more time bringing in their own forces, to screw with trading hubs (Just imagine Jita being at max time dilation 24/7), etc.
.


Sigh, Here we go again ....

TiDi only affects the PHYSICS SIMULATION. It does not affect any timers not related to the physics simulation. So it does NOT change the reinforcement timers. Only the people suicide ganking in Jita will notice TiDi - the market is not part of the physics simulation so timing isn't affected.

Anything you can exploit with TiDi timing (eg bringing more ships, re-shipping in another sytem etc) you can ALREADY EXPLOIT by creating uncontrolled chaotic bone crushing soul destroying LAG in a system. Except that now you won't be able to crash the node after you lost 5 titans and then claim re-imbursement.

Grimmash
New Jovian Exploration Department
New Jovian Collective
#178 - 2011-10-03 14:46:54 UTC
Just taking the opportunity to note:

Stated in Dev Blog on 4.22.11:

"It's a fairly big project though, so I'm comfortable saying you won't see it shipping this summer. Fall's a good possibility if things go well."

Update DevBlog showing progress and explaining developement on 10.3.11.

More of this, and lots of people will be lots happier in Internet Spaceship land. Nice work setting and meeting time lines, CCP Veritas.

And by lots, I mean alot.
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#179 - 2011-10-03 15:19:00 UTC
ThisIsntMyMain wrote:

Sigh, Here we go again ....


i feel ur pain! :P
Matalino
#180 - 2011-10-03 16:00:07 UTC
Havak Kouvo wrote:
So if say the system is dilated, will things still move at 30fps if my system could handle it?

I'd think so, but the fact the camera moves slower is making me worried.

Based on what was described, fps will be unaffected by time dilation. Your system will render scenes as fast as it can.

The way that I understand how the camera will be affected by time dilation is that you will simply need to move the mouse further to change your perspective. The intended purpose is to give you an interactive way of feeling how much time is dilated.

To me, slowing camera response sounds like a bad way of providing this interaction. I change my camera position to look at something different, not to feel how time is flowing. Changing the speed at which the targeting icon moves is a nice touch, but I expect that impacting how the camera moves would just be an inconvience. I expect that for most players, simply slowing the module cycle indicators will give them a clear enough impression of how time is moving. If you feel that something more is needed, then add some sort of pulsing or rotating motion to the dilation indicator.