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Light Carriers
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XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#81 - 2012-05-12 00:58:46 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:


Because we have ships with double skill bonuses in their weapons for every weapon but drones. A fast locking BS limited to drones but able to launch a large number of them would be an excellent (and more durable then most) picket ship against raids by stealth bombers but also have a degree of tactical flexibility if confronted with a more powerful raiding force (something a destroyer, the more traditional counter to this, lacks)

And if you're response is 'fly a dominix' I do, and therefor know of what I speak when I say it's too easy to kill the handful of drones a dom can cough up. If the old +1 per level bonus was combined with the current +10% bonus, it would be worthwhile, however.


AS to why we don't have this now: we used to, the devs didn't want to upgrade hardware at the time, so they nerfed drones.

The current devs, who replaced the previous ones, just hate drones and have stated they don't feel they're worthwhile primary weapons. I


You neglected to answer the rest of my question.

Point to a situation you have been in that this ship would have been useful. That there was a role that needed filling. A battle report and summary of what happened and why this ship would have helped fill a void would be nice.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#82 - 2012-05-12 02:18:31 UTC
XXSketchxx wrote:
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:


Because we have ships with double skill bonuses in their weapons for every weapon but drones. A fast locking BS limited to drones but able to launch a large number of them would be an excellent (and more durable then most) picket ship against raids by stealth bombers but also have a degree of tactical flexibility if confronted with a more powerful raiding force (something a destroyer, the more traditional counter to this, lacks)

And if you're response is 'fly a dominix' I do, and therefor know of what I speak when I say it's too easy to kill the handful of drones a dom can cough up. If the old +1 per level bonus was combined with the current +10% bonus, it would be worthwhile, however.


AS to why we don't have this now: we used to, the devs didn't want to upgrade hardware at the time, so they nerfed drones.

The current devs, who replaced the previous ones, just hate drones and have stated they don't feel they're worthwhile primary weapons. I


You neglected to answer the rest of my question.

Point to a situation you have been in that this ship would have been useful. That there was a role that needed filling. A battle report and summary of what happened and why this ship would have helped fill a void would be nice.


If every ship put into Eve was required to fill a needed role, there wouldn't be any ships in Eve, and their certainly wouldn't be capitals. Ships are features of Eve, not necessities and role fillers.
Loius Woo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#83 - 2012-05-12 03:16:07 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
XXSketchxx wrote:
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:


Because we have ships with double skill bonuses in their weapons for every weapon but drones. A fast locking BS limited to drones but able to launch a large number of them would be an excellent (and more durable then most) picket ship against raids by stealth bombers but also have a degree of tactical flexibility if confronted with a more powerful raiding force (something a destroyer, the more traditional counter to this, lacks)

And if you're response is 'fly a dominix' I do, and therefor know of what I speak when I say it's too easy to kill the handful of drones a dom can cough up. If the old +1 per level bonus was combined with the current +10% bonus, it would be worthwhile, however.


AS to why we don't have this now: we used to, the devs didn't want to upgrade hardware at the time, so they nerfed drones.

The current devs, who replaced the previous ones, just hate drones and have stated they don't feel they're worthwhile primary weapons. I


You neglected to answer the rest of my question.

Point to a situation you have been in that this ship would have been useful. That there was a role that needed filling. A battle report and summary of what happened and why this ship would have helped fill a void would be nice.


If every ship put into Eve was required to fill a needed role, there wouldn't be any ships in Eve, and their certainly wouldn't be capitals. Ships are features of Eve, not necessities and role fillers.



This^^

What "role" in a fight was observed that gave birth to Titans? None, it was someone who said "hey, this might be a cool ship to fly, lets do it!"

So, the argument that keeps getting put out "this doesn't fill a role" is a straw man argument.

Its a game, if the ship is fun to fly, then it fills a role.
Flashrain
Dragon.
Pandemic Horde
#84 - 2012-05-12 03:58:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Flashrain
XXSketchxx wrote:
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:


Because we have ships with double skill bonuses in their weapons for every weapon but drones. A fast locking BS limited to drones but able to launch a large number of them would be an excellent (and more durable then most) picket ship against raids by stealth bombers but also have a degree of tactical flexibility if confronted with a more powerful raiding force (something a destroyer, the more traditional counter to this, lacks)

And if you're response is 'fly a dominix' I do, and therefor know of what I speak when I say it's too easy to kill the handful of drones a dom can cough up. If the old +1 per level bonus was combined with the current +10% bonus, it would be worthwhile, however.


AS to why we don't have this now: we used to, the devs didn't want to upgrade hardware at the time, so they nerfed drones.

The current devs, who replaced the previous ones, just hate drones and have stated they don't feel they're worthwhile primary weapons. I


You neglected to answer the rest of my question.

Point to a situation you have been in that this ship would have been useful. That there was a role that needed filling. A battle report and summary of what happened and why this ship would have helped fill a void would be nice.



It would be useful to have an entire class of drone ships with drones that can last through some bombs. In all combat situations, one or two bombs can wipe out the entire fleet worth of drones.

Role-bomber resistant drones
+drones, +drone shield/armor, +drone speed
Role- Sniper
Drones as a weapon system need further development, to mature to a level that can properly snipe like tachyons/1400's.
Role-Logistics
Likewise, a logistic role with extra repair drone bonus would be a useful alternative as well.

However, I highly dislike the idea of AFK light carrier just assigning drones at a POS. Propose amendment of NOT allowing fighters to follow in warp.

Just to recap what I am envisioning.

class: light carrier
bonus to drone control range 50km per level
bonus to drone optimal range 50km per level
bonus to drone agility/speed per level
bonus to repair drone effectiveness 50% per level
bonus to drone shield/armor capacity per level (race dependent)
bonus to drone em/therm/kin/exp damage per level (race dependent)
bonus to drone bay capacity +8000 per level (size of fighters/fighter bombers)
Allow fleet members to refit
Can fit drone control units

Restrictions:
Not jump capable
Fighters/bombers will not follow in warp
XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#85 - 2012-05-12 05:09:41 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:


If every ship put into Eve was required to fill a needed role, there wouldn't be any ships in Eve, and their certainly wouldn't be capitals. Ships are features of Eve, not necessities and role fillers.


Do you live under a rock?

CCP is specifically making an effort to apply a "role" to every ship.
XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#86 - 2012-05-12 05:14:46 UTC
Loius Woo wrote:



This^^

What "role" in a fight was observed that gave birth to Titans? None, it was someone who said "hey, this might be a cool ship to fly, lets do it!"


Do you live under a rock as well? Have you noticed that titans have been nerfed a lot over the years because their "cool features" were imbalanced?

Quote:
So, the argument that keeps getting put out "this doesn't fill a role" is a straw man argument.


Oh the contrary. The fact that you people can't come up with a role that this ship would fill that is otherwise not being filled right now shows that there is no need for this ship in the game.

Quote:
Its a game, if the ship is fun to fly, then it fills a role.


I want an ibis that can fit a doomsday and cannot be targeted by any other ship. I think it'd be fun to fly. Guess it fills a role right?
XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#87 - 2012-05-12 05:18:30 UTC
Flashrain wrote:
In all combat situations, one or two bombs can wipe out the entire fleet worth of drones.


I've been in this situation on both sides, and frankly its perfectly balanced. If you have insta locking ships, you can pop those bombers pretty well. And on the other side of that, bombers serve a great role in forcing capitals to be aware of the potential for their fighters/fighter bombers to be wiped out by a good bombing run.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#88 - 2012-05-12 05:51:33 UTC
XXSketchxx wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:


If every ship put into Eve was required to fill a needed role, there wouldn't be any ships in Eve, and their certainly wouldn't be capitals. Ships are features of Eve, not necessities and role fillers.


Do you live under a rock?

CCP is specifically making an effort to apply a "role" to every ship.


Sketch...seriously dude...quit trolling..... This is all you Ever do is come into these thread and say No. You're not supplying any valid arguments of either side of the fence.


Also, CCP is CURRENTLY working on applying a role to every ship. That means they're doing it NOW because they new ships they have put into the game have basically overcompensated in areas where they weren't needed, so certain ships (mostly t1) are now requiring a rebalance and to be given "roles" in order to fit into the current scheme of the game.

I can name off a crap ton of ships that are in Eve that don't fill a role that WAS NEEDED, but were just implemented because they would be fun or cool or interesting.

Carriers
Super Carriers
Titans
Marauders
Tier 3 bc's
Strategic cruisers
Black Ops bs's
Faction bs's
Pirate Bs's
Mining Barges
Exhumers
Faction cruisers
Faction frigs
Heavy Assault
Assault
Freighters
Jump Freighters
Frigs
Cruisers
BC's
BS's

Basically, the vast majority of ships in Eve were not designed to fill a role that needed to be in the game.

The ones I can think of that did fill a role that was needed
Rorqual
Dreads
Logistics
Interceptors
Interdictors
Heavy interdictors
Industrial ships

There's a much larger list of ships that didn't fill a needed role than there are ships that did fill needed roles. However, if you remove the ships that didn't fill needed roles, than there's no need for those roles.

The only reason CCP is rebalancing ships in game is because of situations like t1 frigs where they have essentially become useless in Eve.
Marwolaeth Arglwydd
Alternate Powers
#89 - 2012-05-12 06:07:53 UTC
Reading these posts reminded me of the "create a starship" contest that was run on deviantArt a while ago. Some one came up with an idea very close to this.

http://kero40.deviantart.com/

The Escort Carrier...
XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#90 - 2012-05-12 07:15:21 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
I'm really bad at posting.


I like the part where its me trolling when you disagree with me, but me being perfectly fine when you agree with me.

Hint: you're not very smart.

and each of those ships you listed? fills a role

I've yet to see a role that this proposed ship fills
Xhaiden Ora
Doomheim
#91 - 2012-05-12 07:17:46 UTC
Marwolaeth Arglwydd wrote:
Reading these posts reminded me of the "create a starship" contest that was run on deviantArt a while ago. Some one came up with an idea very close to this.

http://kero40.deviantart.com/

The Escort Carrier...


Heck, they even look the perfect part of a battleship sized light carrier. "Escort carrier" is a good term for their role too.

XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#92 - 2012-05-12 07:18:40 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:


The ones I can think of that did fill a role that was needed
Rorqual
Dreads
Logistics
Interceptors
Interdictors
Heavy interdictors
Industrial ships


Yeah, jump freighters don't have a role.
Tier 3 BCs? Yeah no role
Freighters? You're right, they were just put in for fun.
Black ops bs? Yeah, they were put in game for giggles
XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#93 - 2012-05-12 07:20:32 UTC  |  Edited by: XXSketchxx
Joe Risalo wrote:


If every ship put into Eve was required to fill a needed role, there wouldn't be any ships in Eve, and their certainly wouldn't be capitals. Ships are features of Eve, not necessities and role fillers.


This statement just shows a blatant failure to understand the game on a larger scale.

What exactly do you do in Eve?

Spaceships and spaceship combat and thus spaceship roles and balancing are literally the core components of Eve.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#94 - 2012-05-12 08:00:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
XXSketchxx wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
I'm really bad at posting.


Cute...and also immature..

Quote:
I like the part where its me trolling when you disagree with me, but me being perfectly fine when you agree with me.

Hint: you're not very smart.

and each of those ships you listed? fills a role

I've yet to see a role that this proposed ship fills


No, I didn't call you a troll because I disagreed with you, I called you a troll because you're disagreeing simply for the sake of disagreeing. Again, you have not served up a valid argument. All you keep saying is "it doesn't fill a role.", which isn't a valid arguement because, as I've said, very few ships that were put into Eve were put there because they NEEDED to fill a specific role.

Quote:
Yeah, jump freighters don't have a role.
Tier 3 BCs? Yeah no role
Freighters? You're right, they were just put in for fun.
Black ops bs? Yeah, they were put in game for giggles


They didn't fill a role that was NEEDED.... the NEEDED was the part that you NEEDED to notice. I didn't say they didn't fill a role, I said they didn't fill a role that was NEEDED.

We didn't NEED tier 3 bc's
We didn't NEED freighters
We really didn't NEED Black ops bs's

Quote:
This statement just shows a blatant failure to understand the game on a larger scale.

What exactly do you do in Eve?

Spaceships and spaceship combat and thus spaceship roles and balancing are literally the core components of Eve.


Thus making them a key FEATURE of Eve.


Perhaps I should define FEATURE for you......
fea·ture
   [fee-cher] Show IPA noun, verb, fea·tured, fea·tur·ing.

noun
1.
a prominent or conspicuous part or characteristic: Tall buildings were a new feature on the skyline.

2.
something offered as a special attraction: This model has several added features.

3.
Also called feature film . the main motion picture in a movie program: What time is the feature?

4.
any part of the face, as the nose, chin, or eyes: prominent features.

5.
features, the face; countenance: to compose one's features for the photographers.
What I do in Eve is fly spaceships which is a key FEATURE of Eve.
XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#95 - 2012-05-12 08:02:36 UTC  |  Edited by: XXSketchxx
Whether the role was "needed" or not is irrelevant.

You or anyone else in this thread has yet to say what this ships role is. What this ship adds. What role is missing that ship would fill besides "haha wouldn't it be cool if..."

also, Iol at the definitions

my point was that you noted ships as being nothing more than just another "feature," implying that the roles they serve aren't very important, when its the complete opposite; their roles are key to the game
XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#96 - 2012-05-12 08:08:12 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:

If every ship put into Eve was required to fill a needed role, there wouldn't be any ships in Eve, and their certainly wouldn't be capitals. Ships are features of Eve, not necessities and role fillers.
.

This is the relevant part where you are mistaken.

You're right. No roles are "needed." But, ships nonetheless have roles. They fill a purpose that was otherwise not filled.

Ships are not just "shiny features" of Eve. They are literally the core components of Eve. Ships need to have roles in order to fit into the game.

Now, answer my question. What role does the propose ship fill? How does it fit into the game besides "it'd be cool if..." What role is missing that this ship would fill?
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#97 - 2012-05-12 08:13:37 UTC
XXSketchxx wrote:
Whether the role was "needed" or not is irrelevant.


No, it is not irrelevant because creating a ship for a role that was not "needed" is no different than creating ships for sheer awesomeness and entertainment value.

Quote:
You or anyone else in this thread has yet to say what this ships role is. What this ship adds. What role is missing that ship would fill besides "haha wouldn't it be cool if..."


The original ships put into Eve were put their simply for the "haha, wouldn't it be cool if..." factor. If CCP had gone through every ship they put in game from the begining saying "Hmm, this ship is cool, but what role does it fill?" Then they would have never been able to make Eve. They had to start with the "cool" factor and go from there. None of the original ships released with Eve were released because they "needed" to fill a role. They were just cool.

Quote:
also, Iol at the definitions

my point was that you noted ships as being nothing more than just another "feature," implying that the roles they serve aren't very important, when its the complete opposite; their roles are key to the game


No, not every ship in Eve has roles that are key to the game.
Dreads, sure
Rorqual, sure
industrials and transports, sure
carriers, not really
supercarriers, not at all (almost been nerfed out of the game)
Titans, absolutely not (they've been nerfed to nothing more than a capital anti-capital)


What I'm saying overall is that if CCP were to discredit every ship design in Eve that wasn't needed to fill a role, then there would basically be no ships in Eve because the ones with needed roles are only there because of the ones without needed roles.
Xhaiden Ora
Doomheim
#98 - 2012-05-12 08:18:06 UTC
"Haha wouldn't it be cool if..." is the entire basis of creating games to begin with. >.>
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#99 - 2012-05-12 08:20:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
XXSketchxx wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:

If every ship put into Eve was required to fill a needed role, there wouldn't be any ships in Eve, and their certainly wouldn't be capitals. Ships are features of Eve, not necessities and role fillers.
.

This is the relevant part where you are mistaken.

You're right. No roles are "needed." But, ships nonetheless have roles. They fill a purpose that was otherwise not filled.

Ships are not just "shiny features" of Eve. They are literally the core components of Eve. Ships need to have roles in order to fit into the game.

Now, answer my question. What role does the propose ship fill? How does it fit into the game besides "it'd be cool if..." What role is missing that this ship would fill?


what role does the drake fill?
What role does the raven fill?
Megathron?
Hyperion?
Dominix?
Wait, how about the Abaddon?
Caracal?
Harbinger?
Uhh, maybe Maelstrom?
etc. etc. etc., through the entire list of t1 ships.
Wait, what about faction a pirate ships? What roles do they fill? Maybe the "cool" or "fun" factor roles?

You keep trying to throw out this crap about roles, but you continuously fail to realize that MANY ships in Eve still don't serve a role, and many of those that do have roles that are only there because of these ships that don't.

Xhaiden Ora wrote:

"Haha wouldn't it be cool if..." is the entire basis of creating games to begin with. >.>


My point exactly....
XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#100 - 2012-05-12 08:31:47 UTC
Its like talking to a wall with you...

Okay. I'll post a thread tomorrow asking for a frigate that can use battleship guns and covert cloaks.

Its a cool idea I think and it'd be fun to have.