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UI Changes - The Inventory System [UPDATED 2012.05.30]

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Talon SilverHawk
Patria o Muerte
#141 - 2012-05-10 19:19:39 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Guys, honestly, the teams and I appreciate the feedback, and we do read it.

There is a recurrent theme in this thread of "change isn't improvement, its change", and to that I would just say look at the evolution of software as a whole - compare Windows 95 to Windows 8, IE to Chrome, etc - things can't be static forever and must evolve, sometimes in a dramatic way. Usability issues are excellent feedback. Simply saying "it's different, I don't want to adjust, give me the old one" is not particularly useful to the team. They have selected the design direction they are going in and it's not just a case of putting in a checkbox that says "use old system X" to cater to those who aren't keen on a slight adjustment to a system.

Please do keep the usability feedback coming though - for instance, the behaviour of using "loot all" and then having an extra cargo window - this is the kind of use issue that can be dealt with.



You guys are not listening, the arrogance displayed here is amazing. I like change, but only if it improves my life.. Devs coming in here and saying " I have used it for ages and now I cringe thinking of going back to the the old system" or "its all about acclimatisation you'll get used to it" and my favourite "slight adjustment to the system" what ever you are smoking I want some. Slight change that affects nearly everything you do ?? come on.

No No No

The interface should be intuitive, you should not have to think about using it especially a windows based system, it should be second nature. Your system goes against the grain feels claustrophobic and awkward and 5 minutes with it wanted to make me throw my keyboard through the TV, makes simple tasks harder and most feedback has been negative.

This isn't an evolution this is some one telling me Windows 7 is old and what do I think of this shiny new Abacus which is replacing it.

If you like it great you use it, just leave the old system in place for the rest of us as an option. Don't try to persuade us to like something we don't.

The feedback here will be as nothing to what you will get from the main forums if this goes live like this. For once listen to your customers (who are trying to help), or was all that talk a while back about being sorry and ignoring the customer base.

Tal
Tolkenmoon
Hogan's Heroes
#142 - 2012-05-10 19:41:39 UTC
I am not overly thrilled with the inventory i do find it clunky and it has too much cramed into it, but i could live with it if i had to.

What i really don't like is that when in space i click my cargo all i want is the cargo window not what you get with the new window. If i want it open i have to shrink the menu on the left down so it doesn't take up loads of room.

I am not interested in seeing what drones are there, i already know i put them in there, plus you can see them with the drop down drone window anyway.
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#143 - 2012-05-10 19:49:08 UTC
Grey Stormshadow wrote:
CCP RubberBAND wrote:

So I have a philosophical question that I am curious about. Why are so many people intent on interacting with items via the tree view and not via the ships window properly?

We actually implemented double clicking to board ships, so you can open the ships window and board ships by double clicking. This is much faster than dragging them to the station scene?

How do you open container? How do you open cargo hold of a ship? Do you always expect people to board your ship before you open the cargo hold of it? Then answer is so clear that I don't even need to tell it to you.


1) Click it in the tree
2) Click it in the tree
3) No

To actually answer CCP RubberBAND, It's cause it's faster.

-Click to open ship hangar
-Click and drag to activate it

Cut out the first step my letting us just drag it form the tree directly.

The Drake is a Lie
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#144 - 2012-05-10 20:15:07 UTC
Half of the observations in this thread are valid and should be considered for tweaking.

The other half appear to come from people that either haven't actually used the system, or don't understand how a simple tree view works.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Invisusira
Escalated.
OnlyFleets.
#145 - 2012-05-10 20:29:49 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Everyone talking about multiple windows - you know that shift clicking opens up a new window right?

Yes. The problem is, this is innately unconventional and quite bothersome when you actually break it down.

A double click requires only one hand. Browsing, clicking, dragging; this is all down with one hand. By forcing an arbitrary "shift-click" command, you're making the interface two handed instead of one. That's double the hands. What if I'm holding a pizza, or a beer, or a cat, or what have you?

Jokes aside, it really is a very serious degression in basic interface logistics. Completely unintuitive, and counter to what every one who has ever used a GUI in their life will expect. Adding a second hand to what should be a one-hand command really is a huge no-no.

I'm also very happy to see a sudden swell of CCP posters in this thread, thank you for your feedback!


EVE Music
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#146 - 2012-05-10 20:40:14 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Half of the observations in this thread are valid and should be considered for tweaking.

The other half appear to come from people that either haven't actually used the system, or don't understand how a simple tree view works.

Read this and understand what you're reading http://i45.tinypic.com/2yunfb6.jpg

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Dennie Fleetfoot
DUST University
#147 - 2012-05-10 21:05:23 UTC
CCP RubberBAND wrote:


However on a personal note, every time I have to go back from the Unified Inventory to multiple windows, I cringe. We understand the usability concerns raised here, but once people have been given some time to acclimatize themselves, we strongly believe that this will provide the best user experience.


Oh you cringe using multiple windows do you?

Well guess what? I cringe using this ill-thought, moronic, counter-intuitive muddle.

CCP also strongly believed that Incarna would provide the best user experience and I hardly need to remind you what a royal first class cluster**** that turned out to be.

The level of arrogance being displayed here by the Dev's here so far is staggering ('Well I like it so it it must be better')

Every single thing about inferno so far I adore. Missiles, war-dec mechanics, new modules, FW. The work you've done since what I saw at Fanfest is amazing. I was so looking forward to it. I said as much to Unifex, Soundwave and Guard at the recent London meet.

But if this P.O.S. had hit Sisi before the London meet I'd have been tearing them a new one.

You guys didn't understand the emotional attachment the community had for ship spinning either. Yet another thing you totally overlooked.

Imagine if you will, that you had the desktop on your work computer EXACTLY how you wanted it. Everything was in it's place. you knew where it was and how to get it quickly. With folders stacked and stored with specific items, in a way that you could remember. And you spent nearly three years tweaking it to be just so.

Now Imagine that someone sat at your desk one lunchtime and re-arranged everything on that desktop as effectively as a dealer shuffle in poker.

Just how p***ed off would you be?

Or are you going to say that given some time you'll acclimatize yourself to their new system?

The threadnaught thats gonna hit you on the 22nd will be a wonder to behold.

CEO Dust University

CPM 1&2 Member

www.twitter.com/DennieFleetfoot
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#148 - 2012-05-10 21:15:34 UTC
Grey Stormshadow wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Half of the observations in this thread are valid and should be considered for tweaking.

The other half appear to come from people that either haven't actually used the system, or don't understand how a simple tree view works.

Read this and understand what you're reading http://i45.tinypic.com/2yunfb6.jpg


YES exactly. Now you see why the new system is so awesome. Finally a thing to remove the hell that is half a dozen item windows and the new freedom to actually open the corp hangars into individual windows when the need arises to move a bunch of things things between the hangars.

Optimal and Arrow are clearly made into a cuddly purple thing in that picture cause they love us.

The Drake is a Lie
Just Alter
Futures Abstractions
#149 - 2012-05-10 21:24:31 UTC
Maul555 wrote:
Just Alter wrote:
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
-snip-



Great post.
In fact, awesome post!

Now i really want to see who dares to say "incarna" again.

It's clear these guys are still working on this thing and they're really listening to feedbacks.

As i said, it needs polishing but i already prefer it to the old one in fact i prefer playing on sisi than tq right now for that reson.

Great stuff.



They are just promising to polish up the door when most of us would rather not see it at all! ill say it again.. INCARNA!... Now how long untill they realize this and give us our old spinny spinny hangers back, like last time.


But it's not the same thing!

It's nothing at all like incarna!

This is just slander!
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#150 - 2012-05-10 21:28:07 UTC
Just Alter wrote:
Maul555 wrote:
Just Alter wrote:
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
-snip-



Great post.
In fact, awesome post!

Now i really want to see who dares to say "incarna" again.

It's clear these guys are still working on this thing and they're really listening to feedbacks.

As i said, it needs polishing but i already prefer it to the old one in fact i prefer playing on sisi than tq right now for that reson.

Great stuff.



They are just promising to polish up the door when most of us would rather not see it at all! ill say it again.. INCARNA!... Now how long untill they realize this and give us our old spinny spinny hangers back, like last time.


But it's not the same thing!

It's nothing at all like incarna!

This is just slander!

Yea... this time I wont even bother shooting the (amarr) statue. I just take the short way out and retire to waiting for email with some free game time and apology from CCP. That is if this thing goes live without proper multi window support.

Get classic forum style - custom videos to captains quarters screen

Play with the best - die like the rest
Just Alter
Futures Abstractions
#151 - 2012-05-10 21:35:07 UTC
Grey Stormshadow wrote:

Yea... this time I wont even bother shooting the (amarr) statue. I just take the short way out and retire to waiting for email with some free game time and apology from CCP. That is if this thing goes live without proper multi window support.


Please i beg you.

Leave and never return.

Please.

This is ridiculous; you guys comparing this to incarna are out of your mind.

This new inventory system is obviously unpolished and it needs some work but the idea is quite good.

All in all, even if it need some tweaking, it's a clear improvement over the old system.

But this doesnt even matter.

Incarna was bad beacause ccp wanted to ruin the idea behind eve ----> spaceships (and adding the pay to win).

This is just a feature; you may like it or not but comparing it to incarna is absolutely bonkers.

Please stop posting; or better ye: stop playing.
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#152 - 2012-05-10 21:43:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Grey Stormshadow
Just Alter wrote:
Grey Stormshadow wrote:

Yea... this time I wont even bother shooting the (amarr) statue. I just take the short way out and retire to waiting for email with some free game time and apology from CCP. That is if this thing goes live without proper multi window support.

This is just a feature; you may like it or not but comparing it to incarna is absolutely bonkers.

It is a feature what breaks the game just as efficiently as removing hangar did. New version works but it won't be even close as convenient to use. I've tested it enough in test server to tell, that there won't be a day I would do any industry related tasks with my alts using the unified window if the old functionality isn't there.

This will be big enough game changer for me to say good bye rather than **** myself off daily trying to tolerate what they did.

If you get orgasm from me doing that - good for you. Remember to keep some hand wipes near.

CCP RubberBAND wrote:
Thank you for the feedback and please keep the feedback coming, we are reading and replying when possible, but we are also working on simply resolving these issues rather than giving you up to the minute updates. As much as it pains me to say, writing replies is time consuming!

Writing replies may be time consuming, but writing some in early stages rather than ignoring all the complaints would have prevented this escalating this far. Also you would not be having these time consuming discussions in here now if your superiors had done some more real research before this project was even started.

The attitude many of you are offering about problem being in our (customers) end rather than it being in your (small groups of devs) end, is very offending. Personally I don't really care because I usually go (and have went) to that same road and don't really be afraid to say what I think. However that attitude is what is going to sink you in long run. I have a choice to bail out without any problems - you don't. Maybe it would be good time to think about that.

If you really have read all the feedback there is more than enough valid posts to explain all the major flaws your entire concept has. Unified window should have been built on top of (or adjacent to) current windowing system, not from scratch and by deleting all the basic functionality what the working system had.

Anyway I'm not sure who you guys tried to impress - at least it wasn't me. Thankfully I can choose not to tolerate it.

Get classic forum style - custom videos to captains quarters screen

Play with the best - die like the rest
Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society
Kvitravn.
#153 - 2012-05-10 22:55:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Sephira Galamore
Invisusira wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Everyone talking about multiple windows - you know that shift clicking opens up a new window right?

Yes. The problem is, this is innately unconventional and quite bothersome when you actually break it down.

A double click requires only one hand. Browsing, clicking, dragging; this is all down with one hand. By forcing an arbitrary "shift-click" command, you're making the interface two handed instead of one. That's double the hands. What if I'm holding a pizza, or a beer, or a cat, or what have you?

Jokes aside, it really is a very serious degression in basic interface logistics. Completely unintuitive, and counter to what every one who has ever used a GUI in their life will expect. Adding a second hand to what should be a one-hand command really is a huge no-no.

I'm also very happy to see a sudden swell of CCP posters in this thread, thank you for your feedback!

Dunno if anyone already mentioned that.. but have you thought of using the middle mouse button for that? I mean, we ARE making it closer to Windows Explorer, why not apply that idea, too?

Left Click -> Open Window, create new if none exists
Middle click -> New Window
(Right click -> Menu)

Maybe add Inventory "bookmarks", and show them the same way you show browser bookmarks on the NeoCom. These should remember the Inventory path and ideally the window position/size.


On a more general note:
I can really feel with you right now! You put effort in this feature, thought it was all brilliant (and so did I, at first, while reading the dev blog) and now you see everyone complaining and beeing terribly mad. I think many of us have been in situations like that.
But just follow up on the issues mentioned and everything will be fine.
Maul555
Xen Investments
#154 - 2012-05-10 23:55:35 UTC
Just Alter wrote:
Grey Stormshadow wrote:

Yea... this time I wont even bother shooting the (amarr) statue. I just take the short way out and retire to waiting for email with some free game time and apology from CCP. That is if this thing goes live without proper multi window support.


Please i beg you.

Leave and never return.

Please.

This is ridiculous; you guys comparing this to incarna are out of your mind.

This new inventory system is obviously unpolished and it needs some work but the idea is quite good.

All in all, even if it need some tweaking, it's a clear improvement over the old system.

But this doesnt even matter.

Incarna was bad beacause ccp wanted to ruin the idea behind eve ----> spaceships (and adding the pay to win).

This is just a feature; you may like it or not but comparing it to incarna is absolutely bonkers.

Please stop posting; or better ye: stop playing.



Quiet young one. Adults are speaking.

9+ years with eve, I know what will be a disaster. This will be a disaster.
Just Alter
Futures Abstractions
#155 - 2012-05-11 00:21:32 UTC
Quote:
It is a feature what breaks the game just as efficiently as removing hangar did. New version works but it won't be even close as convenient to use. I've tested it enough in test server to tell, that there won't be a day I would do any industry related tasks with my alts using the unified window if the old functionality isn't there.

This will be big enough game changer for me to say good bye rather than **** myself off daily trying to tolerate what they did.

If you get orgasm from me doing that - good for you. Remember to keep some hand wipes near.


I repeat: i like it and i think it's an improvement, albeit not perfect.


But this is pointless; most of the people in this thread are just lunatics, you have no real arguments and are just whining for the sake of it.

(i'm not talking about those who are offering advice or pointing out flaws and problems with the current version of the inventory, i0m talking about the guys who compare this to incarna and threaten to leave over this.)

Ah, btw, i noticed you're pizza.
I repeat: leave please, you interrupt my jewing Evil
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#156 - 2012-05-11 06:35:10 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Everyone talking about multiple windows - you know that shift clicking opens up a new window right?
Yes. It causes even more issues because the window system isn't aware of the fact that you can have more than one window. If I have two inventories open and do something as unusual as click “open” on a cargo can, suddenly I have two windows showing the exact same thing because both assume that, since they're “the inventory window” (singular) they should show the contents of this thing I just opened.

The reason we have multiple windows is to see multiple locations at once. If those windows keep resetting themselves, the whole exercise becomes pointless. If I cannot control before I open a container where that container will appear, then I have lost functionality. Let's use that cargo can as an example again: I can currently make it always appear in a specific, pre-determined spot on my screen (where I have long since determined it won't block anything) when I open it, and that window only appears on request… and it disappears automatically when no longer needed. None of that is possible any more. I have to open the window manually every time. It doesn't save its location (because it's a new window every time, not an old window that I have already placed in a predetermined position). It doesn't close automatically — it just resets to some ill-defined default.

CCP Goliath wrote:
There is a recurrent theme in this thread of "change isn't improvement, its change", and to that I would just say look at the evolution of software as a whole - compare Windows 95 to Windows 8, IE to Chrome, etc - things can't be static forever and must evolve, sometimes in a dramatic way.
…except that those actually have improvements, not just change. So you're not really presenting much of a counter-argument there. You're saying the exact same thing without addressing the problem behind it: people are not seeing the improvement, just the change.

Quote:
Usability issues are excellent feedback. Simply saying "it's different, I don't want to adjust, give me the old one" is not particularly useful to the team. They have selected the design direction they are going in and it's not just a case of putting in a checkbox that says "use old system X" to cater to those who aren't keen on a slight adjustment to a system.
What most of us are asking for is the ability to replicate some of the most common and most useful functionality of the current inventory system in the new one. Functionality like the stuff I mentioned above: being able to pre-determine what cargo locations show up where; being able to set up a static workspace that doesn't reset itself; being able to have direct (as in, click a neocom button) access to specific inventories.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#157 - 2012-05-11 06:50:31 UTC
CCP RubberBAND wrote:
On the note of a few of the issues raised here;
If you're collecting ideas, I will also point to my define the root object idea over in the official thread, which would solve pretty much all the issues I have with the current implementation.

Quote:
However on a personal note, every time I have to go back from the Unified Inventory to multiple windows, I cringe. We understand the usability concerns raised here, but once people have been given some time to acclimatize themselves, we strongly believe that this will provide the best user experience.
Ok. Have you ever used a tool like Total Commander? If so, do you ever go back to Windows Explorer and cringe at the total lack of a overview? Do you run all your programs in full-screen mode, or do you run them windowed, side-by-side to quickly be able to see what's in both at once?

…hell, you're a developer. Have you ever had to compare code? Did you do that in one window or two windows side-by-side? Did your diff system give you one window with a mess of highlighting to show both the new and old versions, with retractions and additions all in a big jumble, or did it show both files, each highlighting where it differs from the other file?

No. A single window is not “the best user experience”. The best user experience is when I can do things efficiently, which is completely disconnected from the number of windows and entirely connected to what I want to do and in what context. Doing things efficiently in the context of managing inventory means I have location A in one window; location B in a second window; and then I drag stuff back and forth between both locations until I can see — without doing anything — that everything is where it should be. Doing things efficiently also means that these two windows are always available to me and appear exactly the same way every time; it does not mean opening one, adjusting it to what I want, then opening the other and adjusting it to what I want.

Quote:
We actually implemented double clicking to board ships, so you can open the ships window and board ships by double clicking. This is much faster than dragging them to the station scene?
This is very counter-intuitive. Double-clicking opens stuff (preferably in a new window), and has done so in EVE and in… oh… pretty much everything else, since the dawn of time. Shift-clicking doesn't open stuff, by the way — it marks the beginning of a multi-select or (in a pinch) adds or removes stuff to the selection.
Noriko Mai
#158 - 2012-05-11 07:44:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Noriko Mai
CCP RubberBAND wrote:

Quote:


  • AND / OR queries seem to make it so there are no results. i.e: Ammo AND Turrets returns no results instead of showing Ammo... and... Turrets.


The queries are exclusive, no inclusive. If you have one filter that is Ammunition and a separate one that is Turrets. If you tick them both, the system is looking for something that is BOTH a Turret AND Ammo so it will find nothing. On the other hand you could create a filter

Group is Charge All
Group is Module All

Match
Any (instead of All)

You can drill down further if you like.

My first impression and suggestion was the OR querie, too. But the main problem that will solve this mess is in my opinion better filter options.

The filters need better nuance. Now:
Group
+-Module
+----Everything

Imho the better sollution is:
Group
+-Module
+----Marketgroup (Hull & Armor/Shiel/Electronic Warfare)
+---- The modules in this marketgroup
+---- Armor Repair Systems
+---- ...
+---- Armor Plates
+---- ...
+---- Damage Controls
+---- Turrets & Bays
+-------- Hybrid Turrets
+-------- Laser Turrets
+-------- ...

This will make custom filters much simpler. Filter will be "Group" "IS" "Module" "Turrets & Bays" "Missile Launchers" "All"
Just try to make a filter for all missile lauchers with the current sollution...
Now you need 10 settings in that filter (+1 for the Snowball launcher)

It's almost the same with the other modules. I think the filter must not be 100% accurate. It only must put all the crap around the important things out of my sight.

Also I haven't figured out how to filter BPCs. (Maybe someone can help)

"Meh.." - Albert Einstein
Sellendis
The Ares project
#159 - 2012-05-11 08:47:58 UTC
New system is crap. Plain and simple.

Before we could open station cargo in 1 window, station container with stuff in second window, corp hangar, ship hangar and ship cargo bay. And each would have its own window in preset position. Just take item from where you like it and drag to location.
Now i am closer to using cut/paste in windows since it defaults to same inventory and screws itself up. Open second window for ship cargo and it defaults to station window, undock to space, and it becomes ship cargo window.

Drag a crapload of wrecks and salvage them, then try to open multiple cans to loot, before they would stack in one window, so you just spam "loot all", now we are back to looting a can by can with multiple clicks to do the same thing.
5 steps backward and 2 forward isn't really progress.

We dont need this kind of window, people would be happier if CCP only added goddamn tabs to regular station window, not this nonsense.

Every time i open corp hangar to drag something i need to remember where it goes since i have to dodge the idiotic way new inventory works. Not to mention that damn inventory keeps refreshing and searching for 10 seconds every time i open that crap up.
And AGAIN they move the icon location, its up, then down next to undock, then back up....make your damn mind, or at least let us choose where we want to put it.

Only good thing i can notice is the estimated ISK value of stuff in container or hangar. Its mostly waaaay off, but at least it kinda works.
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#160 - 2012-05-11 09:42:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Grey Stormshadow
Thankfully Tippia still has the patience to present all the problems and facts in calm and non offending way. I lost that ability after few days of ignorance and got tired sinking the nail in with gentle blows. It is really unfortunate that it takes almost a week and sledgehammer to even get some thinking going.

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