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Unified Winferno is now live - and it sucks as much it did on test server

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mxzf
Shovel Bros
#21 - 2012-05-10 15:13:19 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Blatant Forum Alt wrote:
Then this is a problem with implementation, rather than design concepts, and most of the whining I've read has been about the change to a unified window - hence the troll post up there ^
Sure, I can agree with that. The problem is that a lot of the implementation issues seem like they are direct effects of the attempt to move towards that unified window. Somewhere along the line, the thought that maybe some things shouldn't be fully unified seems to have been overlooked.

The whines about the unification is how that design concept imposes itself onto a lot of use cases that outright call for multiple windows. It's kind of the design version of “categorical statements are categorically false”.

I can fully understand the exuberance in putting everything they could into this new system, but now they need to step back and see what about the old system was actually useful (even more useful than the new one, in some cases), and ensure that those pre-existing good solutions are not overwritten with bad ones.


Yeah, I completely agree with this. I think that the new inventory UI was a great deal and all, but completely breaking previous functionality was a mistake. If they simply return the previous ability to have multiple windows that remember their position and 99% of people will be happy (and most of the remaining 1% just don't want anything to change no matter what).

The issue isn't the new inventory, it's the removal of the ability to do it the old way at all (see Incarna and ship spinning for an example of how that worked out last time).
Testerxnot Sheepherder
Get Isk or Die Mining
#22 - 2012-05-10 15:20:38 UTC
> realizes agreeing to tippia post
> what have I become?!
> puts gun to head
> *BOOM*
Maul555
Xen Investments
#23 - 2012-05-10 15:37:36 UTC
Testerxnot Sheepherder wrote:
> realizes agreeing to tippia post
> what have I become?!
> puts gun to head
> *BOOM*



I really wish people like you would have the common decency to lay down on several large sheets of plastic first. Think of the cleanup crew!
Ilnaurk Sithdogron
Blackwater International
#24 - 2012-05-10 15:45:12 UTC
So far, I really like the look of this. For the things I'm doing, my life will get so much easier without having to mess around with three or four different windows. Thank you very much, CCP!

http://eve-sojourn.blogspot.com/
Nick Bison
Bison Industrial Inc
#25 - 2012-05-10 15:47:29 UTC
Testerxnot Sheepherder wrote:
> realizes agreeing to tippia post
> what have I become?!
> puts gun to head
> *BOOM*


realized I am in the same situation. Shocked

But, Tippia is spot-on here

Nothing clever at this time.
Maul555
Xen Investments
#26 - 2012-05-10 16:07:32 UTC
CCP. I don't have the luxury of looking over this and deciding if this is a game that I want to get into and spend my time on. I have already invested some 9 years with you guys, I have wasted time, and I am invested. I have been doing things a certain way for 9 years, and you are about to force me to abandon all my current workflows. If this was a brand new game that I had never played, I would probably not get into it because of the unified inventory alone. Do not implement changes that interrupt business as usual. You are not a new game, this is not a time to reinvent the wheel and throw it out there on everyone's cars. People have developed habits and procedures that work and serve them well. You cant just kill that off now without serious repercussions.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2012-05-10 16:30:34 UTC
Only thing i want to know is ...
... will pods with GCC finally become legal targets ?
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2012-05-10 17:49:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Grey Stormshadow
Now here is a story what will continue and here is the proof for it.

This is becoming to be a bad joke. I am sorry that so many guys got boot from CCP. I am also sorry that apparently they were not the correct ones.

Get classic forum style - custom videos to captains quarters screen

Play with the best - die like the rest
Just Alter
Futures Abstractions
#29 - 2012-05-10 18:10:32 UTC
I personally like the new inventory.
I dont understand the hate.
Xolve
State War Academy
Caldari State
#30 - 2012-05-10 18:13:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Xolve
Just Alter wrote:
I personally like the new inventory.
I dont understand the hate.


Can Carriers have a similar window?

Fuel Bay/Drone Bay/Corp Hangar/Ship Maintenance Array...

I like nice and organized set ups. It helps me keep track of my 300 ships and 15000 some odd unique items. It would be better still if we could create tabs and stuff (that can actually fit ships inside of them) to separate different doctrine ships and such easily.
Just Alter
Futures Abstractions
#31 - 2012-05-10 18:18:40 UTC
Also i personally think inferno is going to be a pretty good expansion, despite everything (they had to make lots of hard choices lately).
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#32 - 2012-05-10 18:19:43 UTC
Are you guys reconsidering the whole "can only drop stuff into corp hangars you're roled for" thing?

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2012-05-10 18:24:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Jessie-A Tassik
mxzf wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Blatant Forum Alt wrote:
Then this is a problem with implementation, rather than design concepts, and most of the whining I've read has been about the change to a unified window - hence the troll post up there ^
Sure, I can agree with that. The problem is that a lot of the implementation issues seem like they are direct effects of the attempt to move towards that unified window. Somewhere along the line, the thought that maybe some things shouldn't be fully unified seems to have been overlooked.

The whines about the unification is how that design concept imposes itself onto a lot of use cases that outright call for multiple windows. It's kind of the design version of “categorical statements are categorically false”.

I can fully understand the exuberance in putting everything they could into this new system, but now they need to step back and see what about the old system was actually useful (even more useful than the new one, in some cases), and ensure that those pre-existing good solutions are not overwritten with bad ones.


Yeah, I completely agree with this. I think that the new inventory UI was a great deal and all, but completely breaking previous functionality was a mistake. If they simply return the previous ability to have multiple windows that remember their position and 99% of people will be happy (and most of the remaining 1% just don't want anything to change no matter what).

The issue isn't the new inventory, it's the removal of the ability to do it the old way at all (see Incarna and ship spinning for an example of how that worked out last time).


Oh I think it is WONDERFUL. It makes my choices so simple.

Wow did *bleep* like this in Cata. and a short period of time later came the dancing pandas.

This makes my choices very clear.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#34 - 2012-05-10 18:39:36 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Shift click on the tree to open another window if you prefer means there isn't much left to complain about.
Yes there is, because the multiple-window functionality is broken. The inventory system isn't aware of the fact that you can have multiple windows so it has a nasty habit of resetting itself and make all those windows more of a chore than an aid. This is not a niche case — it's every case for unopened containers.

Wanting to drag stuff from one place to the next while keeping both locations in view is not “eccentric” — it's how you most efficiently handle multiple storage locations. What's eccentric is the new system's aptitude for breaking this kind of work flow because it wants to be a one-window system and thus cannot properly handle multiple windows.

There are nice bits and pieces, but anything that requires significant amounts of inventory manipulation is made much harder and requires far more clicks now than it did before. It has also lost much of its ability to set up a “work space” and have consistently appear and behave the same. It works as a framework for an inventory management system, but it is far from being one at the moment due to that multi-window unawareness.


Of course I revisit this thread while not able to access the game to check a few things.

Edit: i was going to give a few observations and ask a few questions for clarification, but then I came to my senses and will wait till I can check a few things myself tonight (rather than clogging things up in here).

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2012-05-10 18:56:58 UTC
Just Alter wrote:
Also i personally think inferno is going to be a pretty good expansion, despite everything (they had to make lots of hard choices lately).

Yes inferno shall be great expansion as long they postpone the WIN part to the point where it is ready for tranq. Without proper working multi window environment (and I'm not talking about shift+clicking now) it will be disaster.

This post gives some hope, but it also indicates that they still really don't agree and are ready to push forward with unification even without working fix.

This should not be the case. Big things can maybe be fixed afterwards, but that is not what tranq is for.

Get classic forum style - custom videos to captains quarters screen

Play with the best - die like the rest
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2012-05-10 19:42:47 UTC
There are always idiots that will complain about a broken feature on the TEST server. A whole week and a half before the launch of the expansion no less. Constructive feedback on an issue is one thing...bitching like a little priss about it is another.

Personally I have had no issues with the new inventory system on the test server. Things changed a little but there was nothing I couldn't do that I needed to. I am sure they can add some tweaks and updates to it later as needed. It is MUCH better than the current system.

Winferno is going to be absolutely awesome and pure WIN. Props to CCP!

Unfortunately you cannot please everybody.

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2012-05-10 19:46:27 UTC
A thread in which a member of draketrain complains about something they don't like, and claim it's going to ruin EVE if it isn't fixed.

I feel like it's Groundhog Day.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2012-05-10 19:59:53 UTC
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:
There are always idiots that will complain about a broken feature on the TEST server. A whole week and a half before the launch of the expansion no less. Constructive feedback on an issue is one thing...bitching like a little priss about it is another.



you must be new here. EVE is the only game that I can think of where bugs went unfixed for so long that they became features.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#39 - 2012-05-10 20:00:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Grath Telkin
The window works fine, if all of you learned how it works you wouldn't be whining and complaining.


I've been testing things as they release the, spending hours a day on the test server trying to see how the new things will fit together for the new mods.

To facilitate this I've been putting together dozens of ships at a time, my hangar is FILLED with ****, cans, cap ships, ships, items, drugs, drones, what have you, i just tossed it all in there, not a care or separation in the world.


I have had absolutely 0 problems once I learned the HOW of the windows functions. Some people have complained that it removed the ability to have multiple windows open, and no, you're wrong, it removed the NEED not the ability.


If you play around with it, you will find that window simplified just about everything, and for ever job that got one click longer, a right click menu vanish.


If you don't think less right click menus in eve is a good thing then theres honestly no way to make sense to you.



EDIT: Holy christ not to mention corp hangars, **** me those are 10000x easier to deal with now.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#40 - 2012-05-10 20:20:18 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
The window works fine, if all of you learned how it works you wouldn't be whining and complaining.


I've been testing things as they release the, spending hours a day on the test server trying to see how the new things will fit together for the new mods.

To facilitate this I've been putting together dozens of ships at a time, my hangar is FILLED with ****, cans, cap ships, ships, items, drugs, drones, what have you, i just tossed it all in there, not a care or separation in the world.


I have had absolutely 0 problems once I learned the HOW of the windows functions. Some people have complained that it removed the ability to have multiple windows open, and no, you're wrong, it removed the NEED not the ability.


If you play around with it, you will find that window simplified just about everything, and for ever job that got one click longer, a right click menu vanish.


If you don't think less right click menus in eve is a good thing then theres honestly no way to make sense to you.

EDIT: Holy christ not to mention corp hangars, **** me those are 10000x easier to deal with now.



From my experiences so far on the test server, this is spot on.

I'll dig into a few specific cases discussed here tonight, and I'm sure there are some valid tweaks that should be made. .. but many of these posts seem to come from people that either haven't actually tried it, or don't understand how to use a simple tree menu properly.



View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.