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Question/s to null and low sec players.

Author
Onictus
SniggWaffe
Pandemic Horde
#121 - 2012-05-10 13:06:07 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Onictus wrote:
I heard there was NPC null.....even if they do blob you just dock up and wait for them to go away.

......just like low-sec, with the volume turned up a bit.

Yeah, NPC null. Some groups stage out of there and so on, pirates too I think?

But if you want to hold sov and not get involved in politics that isn't how things work unless you have a pretty worthless bit of sov. Even then, burning down a POS or two isn't hard either with the tools available.



Even worthless SOV (Catch anyone) SOMEONE will come through and run you out eventually.

You can just roll in with a two gun salute and expect the locals to go for it. But numbers are numbers, so you make nice with the neighbors if you can't eradicate them, or you get rocked.

Just like low.

If you want to take on the galaxy one system at a time....well best hang in hi and hope no one war-decs you.
Jessy Berbers
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#122 - 2012-05-10 13:17:55 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Jessy Berbers wrote:
The reason For me, that i wont move to nullsec easier, is mostly related to the huge factions currently present, i dont like that there is what 3 maybe 4 choices, and most/all of those being in something called "Cluster **** Coalition"

For me to get into nullsec i would love to instead of all this to me handholding to see, a different faction in every region/sometimes even constellation.

I do like the way WHs work though, and as far as i am aware almost every WH has a different faction in them.

Unlike with nullsec, the coalition has won the game pretty much, and there is no real way to dislodge them anymore.

This alone is for someone like me the reason i dont go to nullsec.

I would dream of a my corp/alliance having sov in even a single solarsystem, without getting blobbed to death if we would ever dare to take away from CFC.

Yeah Band of Brothers was stomping on everyone and then they, uh.

Well dislodging them was, erm

To be honest, go set up in Providence if you can get people to kick out the roleplayers there. No one much wants that space, you could build up from there maybe. Or some other spots ... I think the Amarr roleplayers are pretty restricted in their damage types (almost like rats) so make sure your group doesn't have EM/Thermal resist holes.


Heh, well there is kinda the problem, the Roleplayers i am a roleplayer myself, so for me it would be like putting a gun to my own head you see?

I also support roleplay factions in nullsec, they bring more coherent story writing to EVE.

Greets

Jessy
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#123 - 2012-05-10 13:18:38 UTC
When my alt was in starting NPC corp I chatted with ppl on corp chat. If somebody asked "what next/more/different i can do in Eve" I responded with "take a frig and go to lowsec/null for sightseeing". Instantly "vets" asked me if my main is there and accused me of luring newbies into a TARP. Which basically says all about hisec dwellers and their thinking about areas outside of hisec.

Of course if newbie appears in Heild and is sloppy enough with warping around I or my corpies will try to snatch him but same thing will happen to seasoned players also. It's not like we sell tickets for lowsec trips to have somebody to shoot at. But obviously that's how lowsec/nullsec ppl are thinking about ppl outside of "safe" systems.

Invalid signature format

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#124 - 2012-05-10 14:23:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:
Perramas wrote:
Im not an o.o player, Im one of those who CCP Soundwave wishes to push by brute force into o.o space. The way to get me to stay in the game and move to o.o space would be to let me respec all the millions and millions of skillpoints I have in science, industry mining barges and exhumers into gunnery and spaceship skills. Otherwise I am nothing but a red plus or asteroid to be farmed or harvested. I do not wish to be farmed because I invested my training time into noncombat skills.


There's no reason why you couldn't be a 0.0 player though. There are minerals and missions and complexes in 0.0 and they are all more profitable than in empire.

The main reason you don't go is that you think that the second you enter you'll be ganked by 50 dudes, when the reality is that miners are more likely to be ganked in highsec these days.


I and an army of other players don't have the time to play in 0.0. It's that simple.

I have been in there on multiple characters, it's not a play style where you can log in, play 30 minutes for the day, log off.
You have to deal with a corp with people who need you to do stuff for them and that stuff happens when they or their enemy decide it has to be done / defended.
You have to forfeit most of industry / market activities, which is a big NO for the many who play EvE for those 2 aspects.

You are seen as a guy who may *also* do some industry when there are no corp / alliance ops but it's totally secondary and serving to the PvP gods.
The logistics are hugely craptastic. Have to be online at the same hours and deal with the few able to cyno and jump your stuff to and from the place.
Average Joe's T1 BPOs collection becomes 70% useless in there (and it's hard to bring it there to begin with) since in 0.0 it's not the place to go around in frigs and cruisers or Noctis or Covetors.

You will have to become crazy before they let you deploy your POS to do invention, research etc, because of pathetic CCP POS mechanics that allow people to steal from hangars so the directors forbid using the labs.

If you are a trader, there's that *1* hub 6 jumps away. Once again you can't easily bring stuff over there, you need a platoon of capitals to let you in and out in case the hub is a NPC (and thus perma camped) station.

If you are a miner type you are seen as a Down syndrome guy, nobody really mines in 0.0 anyway. So forget doing it. Plus, you will NOT have a station in your system. You won't be able to log in, mine 30 mins, log out because you need others to watch from incoming hostiles from WHs, from the gates, you have to put the minerals somewhere and that somewhere is 6 systems away. Even then, the refinery is rarely efficient so you lose even compared to hi sec. Plus you can't min max yield over there, the rats are not frigates so you have a big tank, small capacity and no place where to store the stuff except in the 1 Rorqual in the whole alliance played by a guy who uses it once a week.

Basically, what's in for people without a plethora of cyno alts, scouts, are not directors nothing? Just PvP.

That's a massive playstyle restrictions for those who were not in for full ship vs ship PvP and can't be online when the unavoidable middle-of-the-night alliance op happens.
Dragonx
Ahumada Co.
#125 - 2012-05-10 14:34:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Dragonx
During my first days in EVE (Beta) I was recruited by the best corp I've had the joy of playing with. I was immediately asked to fly out to the depths of Fountain and was forewarned of many NPC pirates at gates. Bare in mind that these were the days of mining for your ships, no warp to zero and little known of the game mechanics. We'd soon created a set of bookmarks to insta jump... Good old days.

This was the most fun I've ever had in EVE. I was immediately mining precious resources in my imicus with tech 1 mining lasers. Since then I've come and gone from the game but never again found nullsec as inviting. Back then we had the occasional m0o or other pirate camping outside our station, but it was fun. We talked to each other and killed each other if someone slipped up.

I've recently come back to EVE and find myself to be one of those "stuck" in high-sec for whatever irrational reasons. Sure, I can and do nip out across 0.0, buy and sell, often in a pod for convinience. It's not difficult. I'd love to be living there as I did 9 years ago but the problem is, as a number of people have pointed out, it's not "inviting." More importantly, the people there aren't inviting - literally. If I, with xSP, resources and game know-how cannot quickly find a corp to join them in 0.0, I can't imagine how much of a barrier there is for all the new and high-sec established people to even fathom moving there.

To me, ultimately, EVE is overpopulated. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see 100x more players. Rather, it's overpopulated for the game mechanics and distances within the game. When it took a long time to get out deep into 0.0, and it was an epic journey to get back, it was amazing, and a rush to encounter "enemies." But I guess that's somewhat beside the point. I feel that in many ways many of the additions to the game over the years have taken much out of the fun factor and appeal of null-sec. Everything is instantly gratified now, it's too easy. I can sit in empire all day doing level 4 missions easily solo or with help if there are corp'ies about. I can mine, melt loot and sell or, or build ships with it. If I'm really feeling lazy and really want "that" new ship or item I can just buy PLEX or ETC and get it. If I'm an alliance in 0.0 I could make 15,000 ships and gank people for a laugh in a relatively short time and relative ease.

Anyway, this thread is one of the most, if not the most interesting ones I've read in a while. It highlights many issues I've felt in recent times but haven't given enough thought to. To get people into 0.0 two things need to happen. First, CCP needs to make EVE feel big and hard again. EVE used to be hard. Space used to be big. I shouldn't be able to grief some players in one corner of EVE and then in another corner an hour later. That's ridiculous and too easy. I could do suicide runs all day grieving people and refuelling in Jita with the aid of PLEX if need be. Second, all those null-sec players complaining about people in high-sec need to encourage the players out. Scamming them and ganking them most certainly doesn't work. There needs to be both a better mechanism for this and a greater effort from the established community to recruit people on a more personal level. Encourage them to mine and do PVE in null-sec. PVP later, as people are more confident and have gotten to know the people they're flying with.
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#126 - 2012-05-10 14:37:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
VV you were in 0.0 with a "serious business" pvp corp in a a terrible alliance, don't over-generalize your experiences.

There are enough 0.0 alliances which don't do CTAs (or require a certain activity level), which will happily accept your alt corp so you can set up your own research POS, which have upgraded mining systems with outposts, ...

Most of your rant is little more than baseless scare-mongering - most regions are well saturated with outposts, mining systems are usually at the end of a pipe which gives you plenty of warning from any incoming hostiles, alliances have working intel channels so you don't need to set up scouts just to mine, nobody in their right mind mines in belts when there are grav sites, Rorquals and Orcas are standard equipment these days and not rare at all, ...

NPC stations are usually far from permacamped and jumpfreighters have been basically invulnerable ever since the session change timer reductions.

Refinery taxes are the norm but then you don't pay corp taxes as ratters do. The only ones who have a legitimate reason to be pissed off about refinery taxes are those that have to import large quantities of minerals from high-sec.

Believe it or not, the infrastructure available in 0.0 and the capabilities of your average 0.0 pilot have increased during the past 3 years.

.

Darth Tickles
Doomheim
#127 - 2012-05-10 14:41:01 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Basically, what's in for people without a plethora of cyno alts, scouts, are not directors nothing? Just PvP.


Most of your post is ridiculous exaggeration captured by this. However, you raise a couple of good points worth discussing.

First, low-level nullsec industry is ****. You are absolutely correct. It needs to be fixed

Second, the ridiculous exaggeration about "having to wake up at 5am to shoot pos" aside, there are playstyle limits to nullsec, like there are to any sec area. If you can only play sporadically for 30 minute periods, then nullsec is not for you, neither are whs and even lowsec might be a stretch. However, as repeated multiple times throughout this thread, that's fine, nobody gives a **** about you. People who don't have the time for anything but the hypercasual hisec option will always have that option. CCP has never hinted at anything to the contrary, nor do 99% of the participants in these discussions. If you are a committed hisec player who only has the time to tool around with a bit of industry or run a mission or two once or twice a week, then good for you, nobody gives a **** about you and you are absolutely irrelevant to the issue of the new player experience and the transition through playstyles.
Darth Tickles
Doomheim
#128 - 2012-05-10 14:45:47 UTC
Dragonx wrote:
I've recently come back to EVE and find myself to be one of those "stuck" in high-sec for whatever irrational reasons. Sure, I can and do nip out across 0.0, buy and sell, often in a pod for convinience. It's not difficult. I'd love to be living there as I did 9 years ago but the problem is, as a number of people have pointed out, it's not "inviting." More importantly, the people there aren't inviting - literally. If I, with xSP, resources and game know-how cannot quickly find a corp to join them in 0.0, I can't imagine how much of a barrier there is for all the new and high-sec established people to even fathom moving there


Yup, I couldn't agree more. Again, it's this idea of "transitions". There is little in hisec that prepares you, or in your case warms you back up, for the jump out of hisec. It is a massive leap, and you could very well land in a lot of terrible places and/or organizations.


Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
#129 - 2012-05-10 14:47:57 UTC
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:

There's no reason why you couldn't be a 0.0 player though. There are minerals and missions and complexes in 0.0 and they are all more profitable than in empire.

The main reason you don't go is that you think that the second you enter you'll be ganked by 50 dudes, when the reality is that miners are more likely to be ganked in highsec these days.


Completely true as long as you can stand being somebody else's pawn. I spent time in an "industrial arm" of a 0.0 alliance. As such we were completely unappreciated, unprotected, and I never saw a single ISK from the official industry work I did there. Spent more time waiting for fleets to form for mandatory ops than I spent mining.

Maybe things have changed in the last couple years...but that's how it was at the time for "carebaears in nullsec".
JitaPriceChecker2
Doomheim
#130 - 2012-05-10 14:50:39 UTC
Ptraci wrote:
Tore Vest
Us.. elite PVPers can mine.. refine.. trade.. build stuff ursel..... Oh wait... [:o wrote:


See that's the problem with carebears. They think they are the only ones who can sit in a rorqual or a hulk or put stuff up for sale on the market. You are a liability, not an asset.


This.

PvP-ers are perfectly capable of mining,production etc.

Carebears are not capable of joining pvp fleets or even risk their Tristan.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#131 - 2012-05-10 15:05:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Vera Algaert wrote:
VV you were in 0.0 with a "serious business" pvp corp in a a terrible alliance, don't over-generalize your experiences.


Heh, try having a poll and see how many terrible 0.0 corps are out there compared to the good ones.
Chance to roll dice and end in a good one are not too many, and every try you have to ferry your stuff all over dozen of 0.0 jumps just to discover how they play.


Ana Vyr wrote:


Completely true as long as you can stand being somebody else's pawn. I spent time in an "industrial arm" of a 0.0 alliance. As such we were completely unappreciated, unprotected, and I never saw a single ISK from the official industry work I did there. Spent more time waiting for fleets to form for mandatory ops than I spent mining.

Maybe things have changed in the last couple years...but that's how it was at the time for "carebaears in nullsec".


This is the NORM not the exception.



Darth Tickles wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Basically, what's in for people without a plethora of cyno alts, scouts, are not directors nothing? Just PvP.


nobody gives a **** about you and you are absolutely irrelevant to the issue of the new player experience and the transition through playstyles.


Too bad the playerbase has changed over the years and now those with little time for pixels are a vast majority. The game has to deal with it or...


... or it stays like now.


In the mean time I have meaningful and fun PvP time in other PvP games where I don't have to be in a golden cage just to savor the leetness of being in a PvP area.
Kinis Deren
Mosquito Squadron
Mordus Angels
#132 - 2012-05-10 15:05:49 UTC
Since joining the game, I've always wondered why sec status gain was available to ratters in null sec. AFAIK, sec status is administered by CONCORD but CONCORD has no place in null sec - or so I'm told P This leads me to my suggestion to OP's question 1: only allow sec status gain in low and high sec. This would encourage the nullbears into low sec and provide some juicy targets for the pvp starved residents.Pirate
Holy One
Privat Party
#133 - 2012-05-10 15:08:40 UTC
Saia Tae Arragosa wrote:
As many that play this game know, there is an underlying issue that plagues EVE and that is that null and low sec players wish to have more high sec players join them in those areas of the game. This topic has been discussed in hundreds of threads across a wide spectrum of topics and often ends with neither side conceding ground. So the question is....

1) If you were CCP, how would you get more players involved in 0.0 space and low sec - without compromising or getting rid of high sec completely?

Or...

2) Would you just rather see high sec completely removed? If that is the case, how would you introduce new players into the harsh realities of a game where they can be ganked on sight just for joining the game?

3) If you believe that high sec, low sec and 0.0 can co-exist, what is your solution to bringing balanced game play to 0.0, low and high sec space that is amiable to all concerned?

If you could answer these questions I am sure there are people that would love to hear your answers.


1. Move the ISK out of high sec in to null sec. There is no way anyone should be able to earn more or even equivalent isk from pve activities in high sec than null. CCP currently has this completely wrong with incursions and missions.

Fix the 'pve' fit nonsense too.

2. No. High sec is an important part of the new player experience. What it should not represent however is a parallel cluster where people congregate indefinitely and are given no incentive to ever leave except curiosity. I was in a fleet fight last night where guys in rifters were fully engaged and completely useful. There's no excuse for anyone to dwell in high sec forever. There should certainly be NO economic incentive to do so.

3. High sec should be the galactic core; home of trade, industry and chilled low profit low risk pve. Low sec should be dynamic based on player activity; ideally faction war and should contain incursions and OTHER group pve activities which are done with pvp style fits and encourage migration and residence. Null sec should lose its exclusivity and sov should be re-thought to be inclusive and trade/economics based. Everyone should be able to dock at every outpost (excepting war targets etc) and there should be many more ways for players to take up 'residence' in null sec beyond POS use. The #1 bar on people living in null sec space is the lack of facilities accessible to them and the inhability to refit their ships etc.

Most of all I would like to see the end of tech and a new style of null sov based on inclusivity and enticing players to use your services, mfg your ships and equipment, seed your markets etc. Null should be the wild west, but it should not be a closed shop. Figuring out how to do this, and if it is even possible within the current business model of 50 accounts each remains to be seen. I know ccp wants to create more 'homestead' options in nullsec, but unless the presense of 30, 000 pubbies in your sov space is of benefit to you, I fail to see how that will work out .. alas ..

:)

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#134 - 2012-05-10 15:09:40 UTC
JitaPriceChecker2 wrote:
Ptraci wrote:
Tore Vest
Us.. elite PVPers can mine.. refine.. trade.. build stuff ursel..... Oh wait... [:o wrote:


See that's the problem with carebears. They think they are the only ones who can sit in a rorqual or a hulk or put stuff up for sale on the market. You are a liability, not an asset.


This.

PvP-ers are perfectly capable of mining,production etc.

Carebears are not capable of joining pvp fleets or even risk their Tristan.



So why some self entitled 0.0 guy wants to bring those worthless dumbs to 0.0 to begin with?
Structured
Doomheim
#135 - 2012-05-10 15:11:03 UTC
As a carebear, I have an idea: Leave us the **** alone :'). We like it here in highsec, it's how we like to play the game, and I seriously don't care if you think it should be played ANY other way, mm'kay? ^^ <3 - If CCP nerfed everything and made eve unplayable for the casual carebear it wouldn't make me go down the pipe to 0.0, i'd just quit with a big nice middle finger raised to all those 0.0 crybabies that want me to play "their way".

I tried 0.0, I tried lowsec, and I like it MOAR in Highsec, just accept the fact that not everyone likes it down in 0.0 ^^.

Long live carebears =), now quit whining and get cooking, it's almost dinner time =D
Nikodiemus
Geo-Tech Industries
Etsala Legion
#136 - 2012-05-10 15:11:53 UTC
Torneach wrote:
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:
Saia Tae Arragosa wrote:
1) If you were CCP, how would you get more players involved in 0.0 space and low sec - without compromising or getting rid of high sec completely?


The main reason players are afraid of low and null sec is because they never go and it slowly grows over time to be some monstrous death zone where only the most skilled players could ever go. Players start thinking 'maybe when I finish another 6 months of skills I'll go there' and they never feel comfortable with the idea of going.

Players will get more involved in 0.0 and low sec when they realise it's not an instakill death fortress,

PS: Moving content won't force people to leave because the issue isn't one of risk vs reward at all, it's 'fear of the unknown'. High sec players will just start grinding the less profitable activities instead.


This. A thousand times this.


The monstrous death zone fear is probably helped when the few brave players who try to make a sojourn into null are annihilated by the gate camps that are almost always on the gates into null. Players think its all like that but if they just made it further past the first gate they'd find..... a lot of nothing ;)
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#137 - 2012-05-10 15:13:05 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

Heh, try having a poll and see how many terrible 0.0 corps are out there compared to the good ones.
Chance to roll dice and end in a good one are not too many, and every try you have to ferry your stuff all over dozen of 0.0 jumps just to discover how they play.




Good, bad, these are relative terms. The important bit is to have fun. Isn't that why we're here? Some people take this GAME far too seriously.
Darth Tickles
Doomheim
#138 - 2012-05-10 15:13:16 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Too bad the playerbase has changed over the years and now those with little time for pixels are a vast majority. The game has to deal with it or...


Link? That's a pretty crucial claim.

I would like to see some proof that most players actually can't play outside of hisec because of time constraints. Personally I think you're full of ****.
Darth Tickles
Doomheim
#139 - 2012-05-10 15:15:27 UTC
Structured wrote:
As a carebear, I have an idea: Leave us the **** alone :'). We like it here in highsec, it's how we like to play the game, and I seriously don't care if you think it should be played ANY other way, mm'kay? ^^ <3 - If CCP nerfed everything and made eve unplayable for the casual carebear it wouldn't make me go down the pipe to 0.0, i'd just quit with a big nice middle finger raised to all those 0.0 crybabies that want me to play "their way".

I tried 0.0, I tried lowsec, and I like it MOAR in Highsec, just accept the fact that not everyone likes it down in 0.0 ^^.

Long live carebears =), now quit whining and get cooking, it's almost dinner time =D


And again, for the tenth time, nobody gives a **** about you, and nobody is going to force you into null or out of the game.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#140 - 2012-05-10 15:16:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Darth Tickles wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Too bad the playerbase has changed over the years and now those with little time for pixels are a vast majority. The game has to deal with it or...


Link? That's a pretty crucial claim.

I would like to see some proof that most players actually can't play outside of hisec because of time constraints. Personally I think you're full of ****.


I also think you are full of the same matter, nor I care to be "relevant" to 0.0 overlords in never ending need of new muppets to die for them while they plot their grand plans for territory expansion and moons milking.

The game is how the fu*k *I* want and pay for, not how some stupid unknown wants, who pretends to dictate who is playing RIGHT or WRONG in a sandbox.


EDIT

I played too many games where self entitled loud elite ret4ards hammered the developers balls till they made the game they wanted and then the MMO tanked. Because all was left were just them and their forum wh0ring.

Leave EvE alone, it's FINE as is.