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Should projectiles still be the only ones doing all 4 dmg types?

Author
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#41 - 2012-05-10 04:01:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Ocih
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Ocih wrote:
And Caldari favor optimal range.

The Vulture has dual Optimal range bonus and a blaster vulture can get to over 10km optimal and outgun an Abso. Sleipner will beat them both because neither the Vulture or the Abso will get close enough to hurt it.


I was comparing blasters to projos in the anti-tackle role.

But if you want to talk about CSes, a Sleipnir will beat a Vulture because the Vulture is a fleet command ship going against the best field command ship in the game. The Sleipnir could sit at 0 on the Vulture and still win, easily.


I agree, the Sleipner is the best field command ship. I also see that as a real problem because there isn't supposed be a best field command ship. Ships are role based or that is the premise, yet time and time again on so many roles, we see there is in fact a 'best' and in the larger majority of cases, it's Minmatar that have the best. In a niche based, roles game of EVE, that is unbalanced.

In terms of Anti tackle, Minmatar still have an advantage because they are the webifier race of EVE and if you want to squish a tackle frigat quick or get out of its scramble range, web it.
Propmod
The Creepshow
#42 - 2012-05-10 04:45:30 UTC
Lore behind explosive lazors? Okay easy. They hit you so hard they blow your **** up. Exp damage. Easy. Why are there 3 pages to this thread.
Tor Gungnir
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2012-05-10 07:20:44 UTC
Propmod wrote:
Lore behind explosive lazors? Okay easy. They hit you so hard they blow your **** up. Exp damage. Easy. Why are there 3 pages to this thread.


That's what I was saying all along.

Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.

The Cake
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#44 - 2012-05-10 08:38:37 UTC  |  Edited by: The Cake
Hakaimono wrote:
I only open this for discussion. My personal belief is that it should stay the same because you know....physics and stuff.

Think about it in real life for a moment. How would a laser deal kinetic or explosive damage?



An explosion is just rapidly expanding gas which is expanding because it's been heated. Set of a nuclear bomb in space and you principally get a burst of radiation across various spectrum. If a laser is hot enough to vaporize a portion of your armor, then there you have some explosive damage. This does happen in real life. The affects of being hit by a high power laser are not always that different from setting off an explosive.

However, for a laser to inflict kinetic style damage similer to a bullet/railgun/whatever, it'd have to be so massively powerful that you'd be reduced to a radioactive neutron slurry.
VaJayJay69
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#45 - 2012-05-10 12:32:48 UTC
Dibblerette wrote:
VaJayJay69 wrote:

Edit: more direct to the subject, I would find it more interesting if T2 ammo had some additional status effect on the target.


Careful, next thing you know we'll have poison, paralysis and toad on our hands. Seems kind of gimmicky tbh, I'd leave that to EWAR.

It WOULD be cool if some ammo effected your ship in positive ways. Imagine blaster ammo with a small web velocity bonus, or Barrage giving you a few extra m/s to kite. Laser crystals that reflect a little incoming EM/thermal damage would be neat, or maybe missiles that boost scan res or lock range.

It'd all be horribly OP of course Lol


I have heard that arguement in the past, and I am inclined to agree. I was thinking more in terms of a boost to the effectiveness of ewar, like a T2 blaster ammo would give a mild increase to velocity factor of webs on target (not the ammo actually webbing) or T2 rail ammo increasing effectiveness of dampeners. Obviously there would have to be stacking penalties and such in place so it would not be OP.
Tor Gungnir
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2012-05-10 12:52:25 UTC
Tracer Rounds.

Gives a slight increase in target Sig. Radius for a few seconds after impact?

Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.

Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#47 - 2012-05-10 13:05:31 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Pinky Denmark wrote:
What I would ALSO like to see was tracking enhancer fall-off bonus being reduced to 15% like their optimal bonus. The medium ACs are slaughtering frigates due to having the best tracking around with a huge fall-off projecting the damage way out where frigates are supposed to kite...


Blasters have better tracking and on many Gallente hulls are backed by a tracking bonus on top of it.


Indeed, but actually the huge range of projectiles coupled with an awesome base tracking just makes them FOTOM.

Killing ceptors with autos 425 is possible, with 200's is almost unfair and totally op in some ships , with 180's in some experienced hands this makes just impossible for the ceptor pilot to keep the point for long before it dies far too fast.
I can't count the number of whatever type of frigates and destroyers I've instantly pop with an insta cane and new short range ammo (+25% tracking), it's just completely OP.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2012-05-10 14:52:54 UTC
Ocih wrote:
I also see that as a real problem because there isn't supposed be a best field command ship. Ships are role based or that is the premise, yet time and time again on so many roles, we see there is in fact a 'best' and in the larger majority of cases, it's Minmatar that have the best. In a niche based, roles game of EVE, that is unbalanced.


The Sleipnir is the best CS for reasons entirely seperate from the rest of the Minmatar lineup. It's not particularly mobile or skirmish-y, it sits in one place, ganks quite a bit and (if pimped) tanks even more.
Darthewok
Perkone
Caldari State
#49 - 2012-05-10 15:30:57 UTC
The problem about projectiles switchable damage types is:

You can counter-fit vs lasers extremely easily by adding EM/Therm hardeners.
You can counter-fit vs blasters easily by adding Kin/Therm hardeners.
You can counter-fit vs drones easily by adding Therm hardeners for Gallente drones which are the highest damage and the most common, or Explosive hardeners vs Warriors.

but.
You cannot counter-fit against projectiles.

Sure there is the same problem for missiles, but their damage is so low compared to projectiles that it is not an issue.

CAVEAT RICHARDUS VOLVERE - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0

DrEmperor Anonemoose
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#50 - 2012-05-10 19:19:27 UTC
Hakaimono wrote:
I only open this for discussion. My personal belief is that it should stay the same because you know....physics and stuff.

Think about it in real life for a moment. How would a laser deal kinetic or explosive damage?


On the issue of "physics and stuff", you may not have noticed but EVE is not very fantastic in this realm at all.

You know, like how your ship moves at all. The moment the engines cut off so too does your velocity. In space. Jus' sayin'...
Lost Greybeard
Drunken Yordles
#51 - 2012-05-10 21:21:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Lost Greybeard
If you're going to bring physics into it, in a vacuum or near-vacuum thermal damage _is_ EM damage, and explosive damage _is_ kinetic damage, so there should only be two damage types in the game.

EDIT:

You can rationalize the ship movement physics pretty easily. We're equipped with an interplanetary warp device that effectively anchors us to the inertial reference frame of the local gravitational signatures, with nearer and larger gravity wells taking precedence. By dumping energy into it we can twist the resulting stabilizing gradient to accellerate the ship to ludicrous speed without liquefying the entire crew, since we're just changing reference frames. When we're not putting energy into it (by running a rocket or running the actual warp drive) the gradient auto-corrects and brings us into the system/local reference frame again (i.e. we "stop" relative to local planets).

Basically, stopping when we aren't putting out energy is the price we pay for being able to warp around solar systems at 50 or 60 times light speed without killing everything aboard and exploding any planet we fly by. Bonus: it also explains why we can hover below LEO height by a planet without falling out of the sky.
Francis Longbottom
Apotheosis Enterprises
#52 - 2012-05-14 23:54:20 UTC
Airto TLA wrote:
In any Eve discussion that mentions physics I think it is important to remember that CCP ignores physics at a whim and if they did not projectiles would be absolutley worthless outside small blaster range, think about it. The rather inpressive 16 inch (~400mm) navy guns of World War II fires a 1 metric ton shell at 825 m/s, pretty impressive in the real world. In space all MW BCs and some MW BS could fly along aside the shell. SO lets suppose the Minnies got really cool propellant from the Jovians and superior metalurgy and were able to quadruple that velocity, so 3300 m/s, this means at 13km you would have close to a 4 second delay to dodge that shell which would continue to move in a straight line. This is far from istaneous damage and make the complaints of missles having a hard time hiting fast moving ships almost minor in comparison

So if we want kinetic dealing lasers and CCP decides it is balanced we really do not have room to complain if we accepted the above nonsense.

(besides the recoil on the 800mm guns an their 8 metric ton shells, with the above listed muzzle velocity would be enormous the "weld and duct tape" Minnie ships would fall apart after repeated firings) P


I just find it how the slave race, who have duct tape ships, happens to have the best ships...
Unimaginative Guy
Dutch Squad
#53 - 2012-05-15 02:11:27 UTC
Francis Longbottom wrote:
Airto TLA wrote:
In any Eve discussion that mentions physics I think it is important to remember that CCP ignores physics at a whim and if they did not projectiles would be absolutley worthless outside small blaster range, think about it. The rather inpressive 16 inch (~400mm) navy guns of World War II fires a 1 metric ton shell at 825 m/s, pretty impressive in the real world. In space all MW BCs and some MW BS could fly along aside the shell. SO lets suppose the Minnies got really cool propellant from the Jovians and superior metalurgy and were able to quadruple that velocity, so 3300 m/s, this means at 13km you would have close to a 4 second delay to dodge that shell which would continue to move in a straight line. This is far from istaneous damage and make the complaints of missles having a hard time hiting fast moving ships almost minor in comparison

So if we want kinetic dealing lasers and CCP decides it is balanced we really do not have room to complain if we accepted the above nonsense.

(besides the recoil on the 800mm guns an their 8 metric ton shells, with the above listed muzzle velocity would be enormous the "weld and duct tape" Minnie ships would fall apart after repeated firings) P


I just find it how the slave race, who have duct tape ships, happens to have the best ships...


Its because of the duct tape. You'll understand once you experience the pleasures of duct tape.
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#54 - 2012-05-15 06:39:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Rel'k Bloodlor
Also there are a lot(most) of ammo types that don't have a T2, also the ones we have so fare-max damage at all cost and furtherst range are shered amonst all T2 amos for all T2 wepons with the diffrence beeing the draw back. Why not a T2 with diff damages for some races and "pure" damage for minmmatar? The T2 ammo idea is far from fleshed out and new speshelty ammo types is so very mutch T2 in a nutshell.(T2 beening more focused than T1)


EDIT: my spellin soo god and im not edeting it :p

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 

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