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Datacores explained - CCP
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Killian Redbeard
Ironhand Research and Industrial Corp
#21 - 2012-05-10 00:48:59 UTC
Tippia wrote:


PI is no different than Research agents.
Except for the vastly different mechanics that require you to constantly update your PI to make it produce anything, or it will simply cease to do so. This is not the case with the passive RP accumulation that happens with R&D agents. PI is passive in the same sense as S&I and ratting and trading — i.e. not passive, because you have to keep going back to it, renewing it, adjusting it to keep it going.
[/quote]

PI is no different than Datacores, and technically easier.

PI
1. Setup 6 planets in Hek for PI for 24 hour cycle ( couple hours)
2. Recycle and collect PI each day. (15 minutes)
3. Sell in Hek against buy orders (1 Minute) , 3-5 mil profit a day after export costs.

Datacores
1. Grind standings to get research agents ( multiple days, unless you buy rep with tags)
2. Find agents in 6 different systems and regions. ( If you have spent 35 days getting Research Management to level 5)
3. Spend an hour each day going to agent to buy may 2 datacores a day from them.
4. Go to trade hub to sell to buy order ( Let say you got 15 datacores, which will make you about 3 million a day.

Initial cost in PI is 40-50 million in construction costs. Cost for 6 agents and 6 science skills is 70 mil.

PI is more passive than Research.
ELECTR0FREAK
#22 - 2012-05-10 00:51:33 UTC
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1257528#post1257528

ELECTR0FREAK wrote:
I originally built my character to be a researcher. In February of 2004, I picked a Deteis and piled on the Intelligence and Memory statistics. I don't have an impressive killboard after years of running a small industry corp, living in large nullsec alliances as an industrialist and again in empire as a solo T2 manufacturer.

Unlike many, I didn't get into research for the passive ISK. I got into it for datacores, which I actually used to supplement my T2 production.

*Gasp!* Can it be?! Has CCP considered that people like me actually exist? Of course not. Everyone must be milking that 100 million ISK per month cash cow that is R&D agents. Roll

Reality check; 100m isk a month is nothing, particularly when you consider that it's not free ISK... it requires skill books, training time, a lengthy standings grind with an R&D corp (Lai Dai doesn't have any stations with jump clones, can you believe it?) and a fair bit of time collecting datacores at regular intervals. It was always a thrill dumping my own datacores into my invention bucket, knowing that I was reaping a return on the skill and time investment I'd made previously.

Now, over 8 years later, I'm edging up on 130m skill points, I have a single account, and I'm being told that soon, people will be able to be "researchers" like me by pewpewing eachother in faction warfare. Here are a few reasons why this bothers me:


A) You're directly nerfing a profession (T2 manufacturer). You have this impression that everyone is doing R&D agents for the passive ISK. Many are, but some are not. Already, the rate at which you get datacores via R&D is only a fraction of what you need for a solo T2 production line... reducing it further makes R&D virtually useless.

B) EVE is supposed to be a sandbox. I see more and more where CCP is drawing lines in this sandbox and giving people those cookie-cutter sandcastle molds ("No, no, this is what it should look like") instead of encouraging them to make something truly unique. I agree with the 'mining with guns' change because of the way it damaged null-sec mining (I saw running Anoms suddenly become more profitable than mining in a Hulk in deep null) but I also think it was poorly handled (bounties... that's it? Not extra salvage dropped or something similar? Not like salvage and guns weren't already linked!) CCP, please, give us tools (not premade molds) and let us control this universe. Stop pushing us this way and that trying to make it perfect.

C) The reasoning behind it from a lore perspective is pretty frail. "Hey, thanks for blasting those Amarr scum to hell with your repeating artillery. Here's a bunch of highly technical Minmatar research databases as a reward." Perhaps I'm a rarity in that when I've got the T2 production line up and running I actually use my datacores, but what percentage of FW warfare players will use them for anything other than getting ISK? Is that your intention?

D) It ties T2 ship costs to FW, and thus specific races T2 ships will see price fluctuations on something completely unrelated to consumer supply and demand for said ships. Lets say Minmatar do better in FW, they get more datacores, market has more supply, Minmatar ship prices fall along with datacore prices. Now suddenly Minmatar ships are cheaper, but so is the ISK gain from being a Minmatar in FW. I see a can of worms here.

So, what would I do instead? I doubt I'm going to change any Dev's mind here... the intention has been announced so that means it's already being implemented, but what I'd do is to actually INCREASE the rate that datacores accumulate via R&D, by maybe 2 or 3 times. Obviously this will cause prices to drop significantly, so the passive ISK rate won't be any higher than it is now, but it'll also make going and picking up all the cores and distributing them a more time-consuming matter.

Actual T2 industrialists will have a reason to use R&D for themselves as I do, as they could actually do the majority of their production off of their own R&D. For those just looking for passive ISK, they can either elect to move all of the datacores themselves or put them up on the market locally and avoid having to truck all over space in a Transport ship, allowing traders to swoop in and redistribute stockpiles of datacores to market hubs.

But hey, what do I know, it's not like I've been playing EVE very long. I'm sure the Devs know what's right for EVE.
Carry on... Straight

EDIT - Wow... going back to correct myself, February of 2004, not 2005. Eh, whatever, who keeps track anyhow.

Discoverer of CCP's original missile damage formula.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#23 - 2012-05-10 00:55:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Killian Redbeard wrote:
PI
1. Setup 6 planets in Hek for PI for 24 hour cycle ( couple hours)
2. Recycle and collect PI each day once it's done. (15 minutes)
3. Sell in Hek against buy orders (1 Minute) , 3-5 mil profit a day after export costs once.
Ok. And then what? Do you just abandon your PI setup after all the time you put into training the skills and setting it up?

See, the problem is what you described is an active process: “recycle”, “each day”, “sell once a day”. If you treat it as a passive process, what will happen is that after 24h, the process is done and nothing more happens. You have no more products to sell. The accumulation is not passive — again, you're going back to it, renewing it, adjusting it to keep it going. This is not the case with RP. RP accumulation is started, and then it just keeps going without any input whatsoever. It is passive; PI is not, because passive PI doesn't produce anything… it just ends.

For RP accumulation to be even remotely as active as PI, you would have to choose to go to the agent, stop the research, and then restart it every day. Doing so would make you pretty stupid.

For PI to be even remotely as passive as RP, you would never set any duration or cycle time, and there would be no storage facilities — you would only ever show up at the planet and collect the 900k m³ worth of goods that have been extracted over the last n months. There's just one problem: it's impossible to do this.

So no, PI is infinitely more active than RP accumulation.
Killian Redbeard
Ironhand Research and Industrial Corp
#24 - 2012-05-10 01:04:07 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Killian Redbeard wrote:
PI
1. Setup 6 planets in Hek for PI for 24 hour cycle ( couple hours)
2. Recycle and collect PI each day once it's done. (15 minutes)
3. Sell in Hek against buy orders (1 Minute) , 3-5 mil profit a day after export costs once.
Ok. And then what? Do you just abandon your PI setup after all the time you put into training the skills and setting it up?

See, the problem is what you described is an active process: “recycle”, “each day”, “sell once a day”. If you treat it as a passive process, what will happen is that after 24h, the process is done and nothing more happens. You have no more products to sell. The accumulation is not passive — again, you're going back to it, renewing it, adjusting it to keep it going. This is not the case with RP. RP accumulation is started, and then it just keeps going without any input whatsoever. It is passive; PI is not, because passive PI gives no product and no income.

So no, PI is infinitely more active than RP accumulation.



If I don't go back to the Research agent and buy the cores sure the RP accumulates but I am not making any money. I have go get them, same thing as recycling and collecting PI.

There is no difference.

I actually use my datacores in the invention process so I am not getting any passive income from them. Again, make me run a mission a week to keep the RP accumulating, let me re-engineer T1 items to get the datacores and remove the research agents.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#25 - 2012-05-10 01:05:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Killian Redbeard wrote:
There is no difference.
Really? You should probably bug-report it then.
How often do you have to restart your R&D agents? Mine have been running constantly and without interruption for years now.

No. There is a pretty important difference: RP accumulation is passive, PI material production is not.

Quote:
If I don't go back to the Research agent
…they will still produce RP, unlike your PI, which require constant repeated attention or they cease producing anything. Moreover, if you don't go back to the research agent, you will have a whole pile of RP to cash in since there is no limit to how much they can hold at any time, whereas if you don't go back to your PI planet, its storage facilities will be filled up and you will have a limited amount of material to cash out.
Elise DarkStar
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2012-05-10 01:09:48 UTC
Tippia owning fools.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#27 - 2012-05-10 01:12:04 UTC
Tippia wrote:
The thing is still that you actually need to participate in all those actions, just like you need to take active actions to make all the stuff in invention happen. With datacores, you tell your agent to start accumulating RP and then… nothing. From there on, your input is zero.


So you agree that flying a hauler around the galaxy is active?

You agree that once an item is on the market, the income is active?

So you agree that apart from the R&D agent accumulating RP, the rest of the income derived from datacores is active? That is, the flying to the agent, the clicking the buttons, the hauling stuff to market, the listing on the market and the monitoring of market orders are all active, yes?

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Doctor Ungabungas
Doomheim
#28 - 2012-05-10 01:12:21 UTC
Didn't read your post but your thread title seems to be trying to explain how datacores work to CCP.

Pro-tip: I think they know.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#29 - 2012-05-10 01:13:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Mara Rinn wrote:
So you agree that flying a hauler around the galaxy is active?

You agree that once an item is on the market, the income is active?
Trading is an active activity, yes. Accumulation of RP is not (until after the patch, and even then it will still be available in a passive version).

Quote:
So you agree that apart from the R&D agent accumulating RP
…you mean the part they are changing, because they don't like passive accumulation of wealth?

Everything else is just EVE.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#30 - 2012-05-10 01:16:07 UTC
Tippia wrote:
How often do you have to restart your R&D agents? Mine have been running constantly and without interruption for years now.

No. There is a pretty important difference: RP accumulation is passive, PI material production is not.


My PI requires no restarting. I haul stuff to the planet, then haul stuff away from the planet. The value adding process involves no effort on my part. On the other hand, I restart R&D agents every few months to ensure optimal income.

The RP accumulation is the only passive aspect of datacore farming. The rest involves being actively involved in the game.

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Killian Redbeard
Ironhand Research and Industrial Corp
#31 - 2012-05-10 01:16:26 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Killian Redbeard wrote:
There is no difference.
Really? You should probably bug-report it then.
How often do you have to restart your R&D agents? Mine have been running constantly and without interruption for years now.

No. There is a pretty important difference: RP accumulation is passive, PI material production is not.

Quote:
If I don't go back to the Research agent
…they will still produce RP, unlike your PI, which require constant repeated attention or they cease producing anything. Moreover, if you don't go back to the research agent, you will have a whole pile of RP to cash in since there is no limit to how much they can hold at any time, whereas if you don't go back to your PI planet, its storage facilities will be filled up and you will have a limited amount of material to cash out.


I will agree that RP accumulation is passive but collecting and selling the datacores is active, so its not passive income.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#32 - 2012-05-10 01:19:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Mara Rinn wrote:
My PI requires no restarting.
…you mean aside from constantly feeding them stuff or it'll stop. Yeah, still active since it requires constant input, unlike R&D agents.
Quote:
On the other hand, I restart R&D agents every few months to ensure optimal income.
Ok, top tip: pausing a continuous process doesn't make it any more “optimal” — it just pauses it and makes it not count for a little while. I suppose you mean change R&D agents to better match supply and demand, which you certainly can do, but it still doesn't make the RP accumulation any less passive.

Killian Redbeard wrote:
I will agree that RP accumulation is passive
Good. it's this passive generation of wealth that they're changing.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#33 - 2012-05-10 01:21:11 UTC
Tippia wrote:
…you mean the part they are changing, because they don't like passive accumulation of wealth?

Everything else is just EVE.


I look forward to P2–4 products being available through the FW LP store too, then. Because the passive accumulation of wealth through industrial facilities chewing through mountains of inputs is just as passive as accumulation of RP.

RP do not represent wealth, only value. The wealth has to be realised through player actions. Just the same as asteroids representing value: they are respawned every day, with no player input. Missions do not represent wealth, only value. A player has to do something in order to realise that value. RP are exactly the same: without some player action, the value is not realised.

PI represents a higher return than datacore farming for the effort expended.

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Killian Redbeard
Ironhand Research and Industrial Corp
#34 - 2012-05-10 01:22:37 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Accumulation of RP is not (until after the patch, and even then it will still be available in a passive version).


So basically they are doing nothing to fix the problem that they want to to fix. So why even make the change until you come up with a better solution.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#35 - 2012-05-10 01:24:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Mara Rinn wrote:
I look forward to P2–4 products being available through the FW LP store too, then.
Why would they be? Producing them is still an active enterprise, so there's no need to fix it.

Quote:
RP do not represent wealth, only value. The wealth has to be realised through player actions. Just the same as asteroids representing value: they are respawned every day, with no player input.
But they're not harvested every day, unlike RP, which just grow and grow on your account until you cash them out. If you just leave an asteroid alone, you end up with nothing; if you leave your R&D agent alone, you end up with a hole pile of RP.

Killian Redbeard wrote:
So basically they are doing nothing to fix the problem that they want to to fix. So why even make the change until you come up with a better solution.
Sure they are: they're making the passive accumulation a whole lot less worth-while — even costly — to engage in, and even then, they making it sound like they're just keeping it around while they slowly phase that approach out completely.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#36 - 2012-05-10 01:25:36 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Ok, top tip: pausing a continuous process doesn't make it any more “optimal” — it just pauses it and makes it not count for a little while. I suppose you mean change R&D agents to better match supply and demand, which you certainly can do, but it still doesn't make the RP accumulation any less passive.


Having to restart extractors at the end of a cycle doesn't make the wealth accumulation any less passive than datacore collection. In both cases you have to expend some effort. Of course if you collected cores as frequently as you restarted extractors, datacores would have to be far more expensive to make them worth the effort of collecting.

You start the extractors, then wander away to do something else. You don't even need to be logged in to the game for the process to run: that is passive value accumulation.

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#37 - 2012-05-10 01:28:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Mara Rinn wrote:
Having to restart extractors at the end of a cycle doesn't make the wealth accumulation any less passive than datacore collection.
You mean aside from the fact that you actively have to restart those extractors, whereas the RP keep accumulating, passively, without any such input?

Quote:
You start the extractors, then wander away to do something else. You don't even need to be logged in to the game for the process to run: that is passive value accumulation.
…and then the extractors stop. The process has ceased to be passive, because now you have to restart them, unlike the RP accumulation, which keeps going without the need for any such input.

So yeah, no. RP collection is passive; PI is forcibly not.
Killian Redbeard
Ironhand Research and Industrial Corp
#38 - 2012-05-10 01:29:53 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Good. it's this passive generation of wealth that they're changing.


RP accumulation is not wealth. Actively going to the agent, turning the RP into datacores and then collection them and selling generates the wealth which is all active.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#39 - 2012-05-10 01:30:50 UTC
Killian Redbeard wrote:
RP accumulation is not wealth.
Sure it is, in much the same way as my huge pile of morphite is wealth.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#40 - 2012-05-10 01:34:59 UTC
Tippia wrote:
If you just leave an asteroid alone, you end up with nothing; if you leave your R&D agent alone, you end up with a hole pile of RP.


If you leave an asteroid alone, you end up with a huge pile of ore waiting to be transferred to your refinery. You just have to interact with the pile of stuff to get it into your hangar first.

The only aspect that you are correct on is that leaving RP to accumulate for longer means your ISK/hr for collecting datacores increases while collecting cores more frequently reduces the ISK/hr. The ISK/year does not change. The more effort you spend on the activity, the less that effort is worth.

On the other hand, interacting more with PI will increase the ISK/hr and the ISK/year.

If I was required to interact with agents to gain RP, I would expect that more interaction would produce more RP.

It would be great if you had to interact to start a research project worth X RP that would last Y days. But that is not what CCP are doing: they are replacing so-called "passive income" with "mining with guns." Which is the lesser evil? Ask the miners.

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