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New dev blog: Factional Warfare overhaul

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Author
Mirei Jun
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#161 - 2012-05-09 23:34:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Mirei Jun
Really great changes, overall.

I was happy to see the idea of "diminishing returns" being mentioned in the blog. However, one major difference between FW and null sec should be incentives to join the losing side.

Basically imagine a pendulum swinging. As it swings more in once direction the acceleration pushing it in the other direction increases. In this case that acceleration is rewards for killing the winning side and retaking objectives. This will help keep the fight going... And that is really the point of FW. The last thing we want is a scenario where one faction "wins" and there is no reason, and more importantly no reward worth the risk of fighting back.

I hope this explanation is clear enough for you to get an overall idea of what I mean.

EDIT:

Okay I realized maybe this isn't clear enough. So here it is short and sweet:

As systems are taken and upgraded the possible total income for the winning side should always be significantly higher. However, the the immediate income for killing enemies and retaking objectives should be higher for the losing side.

Hope that makes it more clear.
SigmaPi
Space Men
#162 - 2012-05-09 23:34:58 UTC
I'm kidna wondering how many of these RP/Datacore whiners actually use them in invention... I do invention all the time (primary source of income) and datacores are BY FAR the lowest price impact in the process.
SigmaPi
Space Men
#163 - 2012-05-09 23:36:48 UTC
Mirei Jun wrote:

Really great changes, overall.

I was happy to see the idea of "diminishing returns" being mentioned in the blog. However, one major difference between FW and null sec should be incentives to join the losing side.

Basically imagine a pendulum swinging. As it swings more in once direction the acceleration pushing it in the other direction increases. In this case that acceleration is rewards for killing the winning side and retaking objectives. This will help keep the fight going... And that is really the point of FW. The last thing we want is a scenario where one faction "wins" and there is no reason, and more importantly no reward worth the risk of fighting back.

I hope this explanation is clear enough for you to get an overall idea of what I mean.


That really is my only fear in all of this - the minmatar/amarr front is currently somewhat balanced in terms of numbers and determination, but I can only guess how the gal/cal side is gonna fare... Should be interesting, to say the least.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#164 - 2012-05-09 23:42:59 UTC
Firstly, I have played in FW for 3 years before leaving it, and I am happy to see all these changes being announced. Thank you for the attention you devoted to FW for this summer.

My feedback :

1) Now I would have a few remarks on something that does not make much sense to me : if lowsec warzone stations become undockable for the pilots of the enemy militia (at last ! it did not make any sense otherwise...), I do hope the stations in enemy high sec are locked for them too ? It would not make a lot of sense if not... Not being able to dock in the stations of your enemy in lowsec, but being able to have a tea in their stations in high sec ? I do not recall having read any mention of enemy high sec stations, thus why I am asking.

2) I hope you know what you are doing by adding all these stakes here without fixing all the NPC and complexes lack of balance beforehand. Because I know two sides that are probably going to suffer a lot from this until it gets fixed.

3) Also, a few people already mentionned that the losing factions in the planned changes might get difficulties to get back on their feet without any safeguards in the new gameplay. I tend to agree with that. In the current system losing or winning does not mean a lot of things. The only thing that changes is the occupancy label at the top of our screens. People can still run their precious isk farming FW missions, dock in enemy stations, etc. Now then, in the Inferno planned changes the losing side will get a lot of disadvantages (which only makes sense, again, and adds a purpose to the fight, if only purely economical). This is really cool.

But with that in mind, now, imagine a militia losing terribly to the point they lost most of their systems. The enemy gets all the advantages listed in the devblog and the losing side gets a lot of disadvantages (which is, again, fine).What would push newcomers to go to the side of the losing faction ? I mean, except for the few people looking for challenge, most people in Eve think in terms of isk and advantages. I would bet that most of them will chose the winning side. What are the safeguards here ? Again, with the old system, we do not face this situation exactly because there is no disadvantage or advantage to be gained. The losing faction just has to HTFU and get back to work harder. Another possible consequence of this is that a side might be winning for a very long time, making all the conflict in the area boring for everyone (lack of targets on one side and no fun on the other side). I do not want to sound ominous but in a worst case scenario, this could severely damage FW as a whole.

Also, generally speaking in terms of gamedesign I think that winning has to come with rewards like advantages, but the more you win and the more you get advantages over the adversary (that gets a lot of disadvantages), then well, it becomes harder and harder for the loser to win and easier and easier for the winner to win. It sounds to me a little like an ouroboros, an issue feeding itself, a vicious circle. I think that kind of system needs a balance that acts as a failsafe to make sure that the losing side, even if in a delicate position with a lot of limited supplies, stuff, expensive prices, denied docking, no system upgrades, has a way to get back on its feet. For example, the more a faction expands its sovereignty, it would sound totally logical to me that its navy has to spread its forces on all the new captured territory, which obviously means that the more the systems under one's control, the less ships one can send to defend his own territory. In our case for example, it could mean that NPC ships would be less numerous in complexes while the NPC ships on the losing side would actually get a lot more numerous in the last systems under their control.

I think this would definitly make sure that the winning side gets all the advantages they gained through their hard work, but at a cost. Which basically means that the more you get access to advantages, the more it could get difficult to defend them. It only makes sense to me that way, and it fits quite well to the general eve spirit : the more profit you can get, the more dangerous it gets.
Shea Valerien
House of Valerien
#165 - 2012-05-09 23:51:40 UTC
I love all ideas for improving FW. As a highsec carebear, I'm looking forward to joining up for FW here soon.
Cosmoes
Peraka
#166 - 2012-05-10 00:02:41 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:

1) Now I would have a few remarks on something that does not make much sense to me : if lowsec warzone stations become undockable for the pilots of the enemy militia (at last ! it did not make any sense otherwise...), I do hope the stations in enemy high sec are locked for them too ? It would not make a lot of sense if not... Not being able to dock in the stations of your enemy in lowsec, but being able to have a tea in their stations in high sec ? I do not recall having read any mention of enemy high sec stations, thus why I am asking.


Not entirely sure on mechanics of this but does this new thing block you from all stations or just amarr stations?

Just curious as I have 2 characters in FW with r&d agents for a minmatar r&d corp but 4/5 of their agents are in amarr/caldari high sec.
Wolodymyr
Breaking Ambitions
#167 - 2012-05-10 00:03:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Wolodymyr
OK so I have a question about these "minor sites", and I really hope a dev or someone who knows how new FW will work will answer it.

So when they talk about "Capturing payouts" are those sites respawning? Or does it work like some sort of king of the hill mechanic?

So can I perpetually run "minor sites" all day long like havens and get 10,000 LP a tick? Or will I have to wait for the enemy militia to come by and take the local "minor site" so I can take it back for 10,000 LP?

Because if they infinitely re-spawn I am joining the minmitar militia and farming sites all day long in relative safety. If they work by a capture the flag mechanic then I am joining the amarr militia and taking out some lazy minmitar pilots.


Oh and about all this whining over datacores. I would rather the profits from datacores actually go to people who are fighting in the militia, rather than carebears who don't give a crap about warring factions or lowsec, and are only there to farm isk.

I honestly think PoCo based sov is a good idea https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1417544

Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#168 - 2012-05-10 00:08:22 UTC
Crossposted from a FW thread on another forum (disclaimer: I don't fly in FW and I don't intend to in the future, but I recognize that this is intended to have an effect on people outside of FW, and that part does include me. I'm also tired of the continual QQ whenever the advantage pendulum swings from one militia to the other.)

Anyway:

As I've said to a few people already, I like the changes they've already got listed, and think they're a great start, however I believe there are a few very important things missing from the list that without which I would consider this not in the slightest ready for release.

Things that help balance the playing field regardless of numbers on either side, like:
- I-Hubs requiring constant upkeep. Even if nobody's offensively plexing in your system, LP should still need to be funneled into the I-Hub to keep it upgraded. Constantly. This would mean that if you don't feed an I-Hub, you can lose all of the upgrades and possibly the system; it would also force people to prioritize feeding the I-Hubs of strategic systems over others. Force militias to play triage with their systems - pool your LP into these two particularly important systems in exchange for barely upgrading (or even losing) these five systems over here that are of little use to either side.
- Make rewards for various accomplishments scale inversely to the amount of space your militia holds. This means diminishing returns for LP rewards based on the amount of space held by your militia, and conversely, increased returns for the side with less space. The more of the opposing faction's space your militia has claimed, the less LP you receive for various tasks. The less space your militia holds, the higher the LP rewards, and the easier it is to flip systems. Coupled with the previous, the more space you hold, the smaller the amount of LP there is to spare for fueling your I-Hubs, and the harder it is to keep control over more space than less space; likewise, it makes it easier to make a comeback after you've been pushed into a corner.

These two changes alone would make me consider that maybe things were ready to be rolled out. It obviously needs more, but without these two? No. No way in hell is it ready for release.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque

Adellle Nadair
Nuclear Midnight
#169 - 2012-05-10 00:22:33 UTC
Mechanical Datacores are used in all t2 ship invention along with the specific starship engineering of each faction. But Minmatar has a monopoly of the mechanical datacores for faction warfare. This needs to be changed. Mechanical Datacores should be available in for all factions.
Infinion
Awesome Corp
#170 - 2012-05-10 00:28:10 UTC
few questions

1) will there be incentives to capturing entire enemy constellations where the systems of the constellation are eligible for possibly a different tree of more considerable upgrades?

2) If a faction isolates systems from its enemy faction, effectively cutting off their supply lines, could the isolated systems face a weakened infrastructure or some other negative consequence?

3) what happens if a faction loses control of all of its contestable systems? have you considered a victory incentive?
sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
Ghost Legion.
#171 - 2012-05-10 00:33:30 UTC  |  Edited by: sYnc Vir
Question For the FW Dev Team.

So FW is now about sov, so does that mean, say IF OMS becomes flippable Can I as an Amarr pilot fly down with 80 of my closest dread friends, and drop on the system like it was naked cake? Thus turning it From a Gal system to an AMARR system?

Also, Flipping LP reward, 40,000LP Between everyone? Or each? Cause between everyone and you may as well not shoot the thing and just camp the entry gate and gank WTs coming to stop the flip, more LP that way. I would advise either INCREASE the spilt amound vastly, or giving out a set amount per person.

Also please conside dockable, red cross style station. No repairs, medical clones or market. Just somewhere to store ships until you at lease redo POS's. Otherwise FW players could soon find themselves doing 10 jumps just to gank two frigs. Not fun game play. Sure we could go put up a load of POS's and store crap, but please think of the smaller corps, and solo players. Flying a bunch of systems just to get to a fight in FW is not cool. We are not Nullbears, We don't want a see of blue for 30 jumps.

Don't ask about Italics, just tilt your head.

Hockston Axe
#172 - 2012-05-10 00:47:11 UTC
Shar Tegral wrote:
Don't know if it has been said already: Each faction should have access to Mechanical Engineering.


This. Makes no sense that one faction has a stranglehold on it. (Also, it's Mechanical Engineering, not Duct Tape Engineering.)
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#173 - 2012-05-10 00:52:59 UTC
Two step wrote:
Good changes, but Mech Eng cores really should be available from all factions.


They already are, you just have to put the effort into collecting them from R&D agents across the cluster. Ideally, ME datacores would not be available through FW LP stores since they are not faction specific. The price will drop due to datacores farmers resorting to the only datacore that is profitable to collect, which means all alts will be acquiring cores at the same stations, which means collection runs don't take so long, which means there is less income required to make the effort of collecting cores worthwhile. Though supply might stall for the first six months since the collection runs will only be worthwhile when there are a large number of cores to collect.

Prior to this change, it was borderline wasteful to collect cores any more frequently than every three months or so. With a halving of the production rate, it will now be six months between visits. With the dropping of value of the cores, the farmers will be visiting their agents even less frequently.

Anyone who thinks datacore farming is "passive" has rocks in their heads. The time spent collecting them is time the collector is not mining, mission running, incursion running, scamming or mission ganking on their most productive character. Datacores do not magically transition from agent to market.

Shooting bunkers to gain datacores is just as much "mining with guns" as drone poo ever was.

FW 2.0: The PVE Farmers Strike Back.
Miang Hawwa
Amphysvena
#174 - 2012-05-10 00:54:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Miang Hawwa
Make Pirate factions also participate in this factional warfare and my corp will gladly join Nation. Until then, not interested.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#175 - 2012-05-10 00:59:18 UTC
Cosmoes wrote:
Not entirely sure on mechanics of this but does this new thing block you from all stations or just amarr stations?

Just curious as I have 2 characters in FW with r&d agents for a minmatar r&d corp but 4/5 of their agents are in amarr/caldari high sec.


At present it appears that you will only be locked out of all stations in the occupied system if the occupier is an enemy faction, there is no lockout based on faction standings.
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#176 - 2012-05-10 01:09:16 UTC
Adellle Nadair wrote:
Mechanical Datacores are used in all t2 ship invention along with the specific starship engineering of each faction. But Minmatar has a monopoly of the mechanical datacores for faction warfare. This needs to be changed. Mechanical Datacores should be available in for all factions.
^^This. I don't even do Industry and I can figure out that giving ME datacores to just one faction is a terrible terrible terrible idea. It is THE most used datacore. Giving it to one faction is like making Veldspar only available from one area of space.

Come on CCP, do at least a marginal amount of research into things before you go changing them. This is the sort of stuff that makes people think you don't even play the game.
Cosmoes
Peraka
#177 - 2012-05-10 02:07:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Cosmoes
Hockston Axe wrote:
Shar Tegral wrote:
Don't know if it has been said already: Each faction should have access to Mechanical Engineering.


This. Makes no sense that one faction has a stranglehold on it. (Also, it's Mechanical Engineering, not Duct Tape Engineering.)


While I can see why limiting mechanical engineering to Minmatar is bad I honestly think it's fine.


Caldari LP store has best shield mods yet Minmatar use shields. Amarr have armor when Gallente armor tank as well. Gallente have webs while Minmatar have ships bonnused towards webbing.


Is Minmatar only mechanical engineering massively unbalanced towards minmatar? hell yes, but that doesn't mean the LP stores as a whole are unbalanced.

Also we still have r&d agents and that like 0.01% that comes from exploration so that they don't have a complete monopoly on it.
Popsikle
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#178 - 2012-05-10 02:20:22 UTC
Rhaile Vhindiscar wrote:
"You want to do research, fine? The best way is to go kill people." I can see how that would play out to a potential scientist. So, are you really telling industrialist to join fw or just creating an interdependence without any real justification?

Overhaul datacore mining some other way. Get datacores out of FW. It doesn't make sense fluff wise or mechanic wise. You just got done telling people you're not going to let them shoot npcs to build things (drone nerf)...then you tell them you are going to make them shoot npcs to build things (fw overhaul). All you did was change the position in the production chain.


Actually its more like:

"You want to do research, fine but you will need to do experiments on the fringes of empire. The factions don't want explosions in safe space or anything. By the way the stations with the services you need come under attack regularly so you will need to learn how to fight and protect your work. Welcome to the fringes."

Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
#179 - 2012-05-10 02:22:41 UTC
Alx Warlord wrote:
OMG, this Datacore stuff will become a chaos!!!! I'm running to Hi-sec to withdrown all my RP....
This will increase T2 prices in a long run....

I just hope CCP make something fast with the moon minerals, and the minning profession to fix this... All the prices in eve are rising up fast!!! this way... we will have a ship shortage soon.... and less pvp...


Yes, prices will be "high", i suggest everyone should keep *cough* their datacores, at least until i have had a chance to ...

brb
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#180 - 2012-05-10 02:23:31 UTC
Popsikle wrote:
Rhaile Vhindiscar wrote:
"You want to do research, fine? The best way is to go kill people." I can see how that would play out to a potential scientist. So, are you really telling industrialist to join fw or just creating an interdependence without any real justification?

Overhaul datacore mining some other way. Get datacores out of FW. It doesn't make sense fluff wise or mechanic wise. You just got done telling people you're not going to let them shoot npcs to build things (drone nerf)...then you tell them you are going to make them shoot npcs to build things (fw overhaul). All you did was change the position in the production chain.


Actually its more like:

"You want to do research, fine but you will need to do experiments on the fringes of empire. The factions don't want explosions in safe space or anything. By the way the stations with the services you need come under attack regularly so you will need to learn how to fight and protect your work. Welcome to the fringes."


Your explanation makes sense if R&D wass just moved to lowsec, but not when you get rewarded with datacores for shooting people and have no prerequisite of learning about the field you are researching.