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If you really want to grief botters, afk'rs, industrialists and miners

Author
MeestaPenni
Mercantile and Stuff
#81 - 2012-05-09 16:28:27 UTC
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:

It is since there are a finite number of belts in the game, each containing a finite amount of ore.


I guess "Bizzaro" is an apt nom de plume for your character.

Given the current EVE asteroid respawn mechanics, and the incredible amount of unmined asteroids in hundreds of systems, answer one question; when will the supply of minerals from asteroids hit its finite point and be utterly gone, forever?

I am not Prencleeve Grothsmore.

Toshiroma McDiesel
Lupus Draconis
The Skeleton Crew
#82 - 2012-05-09 16:31:11 UTC
Wait....are people trying to argue that miners arn't carebears because they are actively engaged on PVP? Pirate

I"m not really the Evil One, I'm just his answering service.

liaxolox
Jol-Nar Industries
#83 - 2012-05-09 16:31:30 UTC  |  Edited by: liaxolox
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:

Because it is finite


However iHub hidden belts respawn.

Industrial Sized Knowledgebase wrote:

Mining a hidden belt to extinction will respawn it
within five minutes if there is no one left in the belt


Numbers handled by a computer are inherently finite, however there's not a hard limit on how many minerals can be mined in a day. The amount is indeterminately large and for most people that is also colloquially "infinite".


EDIT: Let me point out that my inane point is in fact inane.
Haas Tabris
Peace Love n Harmony
#84 - 2012-05-09 16:58:26 UTC
Nephilius wrote:
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Haas Tabris wrote:

Oh, and if any of you so called "PVP'rs" who are just a bunch of whiney high-sec haters argue against this, well, you're just showing your true carebear colors. I'd LOVE to PVP without local. It's almost a wet dream of mine. And if you doubt me, well, this is my main and you can go check my record - I probably have more kills than you.


Ganking is not PvP. Nor is griefing. You're just a lowlife dickwad. Man-up and go find some real PvP to satisfy you. But I bet you don't dare.


It is called High Sec for a reason. Local stays.


I'm going to be called a traitor for this, but local needs to go. Local has no bearing on the security status of any system, that's essentially what CONCORD is for...hisec has CONCORD, losec and Nulsec does not. Having local is essentially a cheat sheet, not just for predators, but for prey as well. You should never, ever be able to see who is in system the moment you cross a gate. Having no local would be as much of a help as a hindrance anyways. A person could hide in system from war targets, either to escape them, or to wait in ambush for them. The door swings both ways when you remove local.

Oh, and I hang out in hisec, before any of you hisec whiners say anything about 'hisec should stay hisec'. Death to local, let's get some actual sand in the sandbox.

Exactly. At least someone gets it. And for the record and everyone else, i hate griefers. i honestly think high-sec should be high-sec and folks should be safe there. I just wrote this post 'cause i was sick of the goons and all their high-sec hulkageddon bullshit. I wanted to see how many of them would come out and support the nerf local idea. Looks like none of them. Hmmm. I wonder why that is... Oh, perhaps they need local for their afk mining and ratting in 0.0...?
Francisco Bizzaro
#85 - 2012-05-09 17:07:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Francisco Bizzaro
MeestaPenni wrote:
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:

It is since there are a finite number of belts in the game, each containing a finite amount of ore.


I guess "Bizzaro" is an apt nom de plume for your character.

Actually "Bizarro" would be better, but I didn't think to spell-check it at the character creator and now must live with the shame on a daily basis.

Quote:

Given the current EVE asteroid respawn mechanics, and the incredible amount of unmined asteroids in hundreds of systems, answer one question; when will the supply of minerals from asteroids hit its finite point and be utterly gone, forever?

Since I'm interested in playing the game today, forever is not very important to me. On any given day there is a finite amount of minerals in the game. A finite amount of mineral spawned yesterday. And even summed up since the beginning of the game, only a finite amount of minerals have ever spawned in Eve, though most of it was wiped out at the next downtime.

With the current mechanics, the only way to accumulate an infinite amount of minerals would be to play for an infinite number of days, and my game-time would run out before that.

I agree - there are an incredible amount of minerals spawned every day. But not all belts are created equal, and the collection of belts with easy access to market is significantly smaller than the sum total over the whole game. If everyone were to mine in Jita, I guess some hulks would bump elbows. The fact that not everyone does mine in Jita suggests to me that niche is full and competition has driven others further afield.

liaxolox wrote:
However iHub hidden belts respawn.

True enough. So do grav sites.

I could counter-point that since each site takes a certain time to run, you can only run a finite number in day, so technically ...

But I was rather thinking of high-sec mining (since the discussion started with ganking), and the fact that some belts in high-sec see heavy traffic which moves people away.

Anyhow, I'm not a miner, and the burly fellow with a Swiss name, above, informed me that there is no such competition among miners, so what can I say.

Quote:
Numbers handled by a computer are inherently finite, however there's not a hard limit on how many minerals can be mined in a day. The amount is indeterminately large and for most people that is also colloquially "infinite".


EDIT: Let me point out that my inane point is in fact inane.

Join the club. I though this thread was about nerfing local, and here I am counting infinities. vOv
HyperZerg
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2012-05-09 17:36:19 UTC
Remove local und replace it with a list of players aktive in the system.

Or, remove local and give players the abilitiy to place anti-cloaking fields and sentry-guns.


Player need an intelligence tool to find out if they are in danger of getting killed or not. Direktional-scanner is far not enought. Most player want and need security in a game where you can loose something you have to "work" for to replace it. The theys before Concorde EVE only growed very slowly, but with concord the player-counts exploded [heard this form some older players].


Just think about, how much % of Eve will have more fun and how much % will have less fun if you remove local. If only 10% got more fun and 70% are really pissed of it indicates a bad decition.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#87 - 2012-05-09 17:40:31 UTC
ITT: People who don't know the difference between "infinite", "unlimited" and merely "very large".

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#88 - 2012-05-09 18:03:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Antisocial Malkavian
Malcanis wrote:
ITT: People who don't know the difference between "infinite", "unlimited" and merely "very large".


Until CCP stops seeding the belts with asteroids the number is "very large" but effectively infinite because they WILL reseed every day.
When they stop doing that itd become perminantly finite


but sorta on topic, HAS anyone ever been banned for griefing in EVE?

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Eric Konway
Tritanium Wolf Mercenaries
#89 - 2012-05-09 18:22:44 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Haas Tabris wrote:

Oh, and if any of you so called "PVP'rs" who are just a bunch of whiney high-sec haters argue against this, well, you're just showing your true carebear colors. I'd LOVE to PVP without local. It's almost a wet dream of mine. And if you doubt me, well, this is my main and you can go check my record - I probably have more kills than you.

Ganking is not PvP. Nor is griefing. You're just a lowlife dickwad. Man-up and go find some real PvP to satisfy you. But I bet you don't dare.

It is called High Sec for a reason. Local stays.

Ganking isn't pvp? Oh dear ...



Well, if you're ganking bot miners, then it's not PVP. More like, PVB, or something... or if the Gankee is non-responsive you could in PvN (Player vs. Narcoleptic) P
Eryn Velasquez
#90 - 2012-05-09 18:30:13 UTC
HyperZerg wrote:
Remove local und replace it with a list of players aktive in the system.

Or, remove local and give players the abilitiy to place anti-cloaking fields and sentry-guns.


Player need an intelligence tool to find out if they are in danger of getting killed or not. Direktional-scanner is far not enought. Most player want and need security in a game where you can loose something you have to "work" for to replace it. The theys before Concorde EVE only growed very slowly, but with concord the player-counts exploded [heard this form some older players].


Just think about, how much % of Eve will have more fun and how much % will have less fun if you remove local. If only 10% got more fun and 70% are really pissed of it indicates a bad decition.


I totally agree that when local is nerfed/delayed, there has to be an upgraded scanning system.

It should be an intelligent, user customizable tool, where i can define optical and/or acoustic alarms when certain players come within the scanable area.
The current D-scan is'nt science fiction, it's a joke...

_“A man's freedom consists in his being able to do whatever he wills, but that he should not, by any human power, be forced to do what is against his will.” ― Jean-Jacques Rousseau _

Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
#91 - 2012-05-09 19:48:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Peter Raptor
Eryn Velasquez wrote:
HyperZerg wrote:
Remove local und replace it with a list of players aktive in the system.

Or, remove local and give players the abilitiy to place anti-cloaking fields and sentry-guns.


Player need an intelligence tool to find out if they are in danger of getting killed or not. Direktional-scanner is far not enought. Most player want and need security in a game where you can loose something you have to "work" for to replace it. The theys before Concorde EVE only growed very slowly, but with concord the player-counts exploded [heard this form some older players].


Just think about, how much % of Eve will have more fun and how much % will have less fun if you remove local. If only 10% got more fun and 70% are really pissed of it indicates a bad decition.


I totally agree that when local is nerfed/delayed, there has to be an upgraded scanning system.

It should be an intelligent, user customizable tool, where i can define optical and/or acoustic alarms when certain players come within the scanable area.
The current D-scan is'nt science fiction, it's a joke...



But see thats the whole problem, if we get a really great scanner if local is nerfed, it'll be just like having local So what would be the point of Removing Local??


Leave things as they are, its more logical then removing local, and then getting local back with an awesome scannerRoll

Evelopedia; 

The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion  †  

Shea Valerien
House of Valerien
#92 - 2012-05-09 20:06:13 UTC
As a pure mission runner and miner (when not wanting to pay a ton of attention to the game), I strongly support the nerfing of local. Makes the game more interesting and the whole idea of just knowing who's in the system based on who shows up on "chat" is a little.. well.. silly.
Alavaria Fera
Imperial Shipment
#93 - 2012-05-09 20:16:29 UTC
Ironically, nerfing local would mean that cloaky camping would be pointless. As no one would know where you are unless they spotted you through a gate or whatever, you can't terrify people except by killing. Which wouldn't lock down systems for a whole day if you were just afk, since 3 hours later no one would care much.

Great for ganking, of course. Doubtless people would have to pay more attention. But really, the bots would have a much better time of it since they can presumably spam dscan and initiate warp the moment something that doesn't belong shows up. So you wouldn't really be greifing botters, just trying to gank people who pay less attention than a bit..

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Freggan
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#94 - 2012-05-09 22:41:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Freggan
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:
[quote=Freggan]Then if we agree player vs player means what massively multiplayer online game means then some people are going to be confused. Whats wrong with accepting the current intentions in all games at least till now that PVP is warfare orientated and MMOG is a lot of players is the same universe all playing together.

I don't see what the definition of MMO has to do with anything. Nor do I understand what "warfare oriented" means or what it has to do with the definition of PvP.

Exceedingly simply put type PVP into google. If you find it being used to advertise mining together or doing anything together that is not "warfare orientated" I would be surprised. You will find PVP used to explain/advertise/entice players into a MMOG for the purpose of player vs player warfare whether that will be in a tank, part of a larger battle or singly.
Mathias Hex
#95 - 2012-05-10 00:45:20 UTC
I see AFK ganking in your future Shocked

I recall one night in a nightclub called the matrix, there I was... Mother of god there I am! Holy f**k.

SuperKawaiiDesuYo
#96 - 2012-05-10 08:25:51 UTC
part A:Hit d-scan. a lot
part B:Equip combat probe launcher. and scan a l ot
Part C: aka slow down the pace of the game

freighter killing... how many ships do you have to spend to do that? you're just there to troll the ship most likely, thus who cares if you're trolled by having local/not making a profit(less douchy way of saying it is, it's a risk) if your concern is you can't make $ killing freighters, go do something else. whiny pirates are like college students saying they cant do what they want with their lives/carrer, even if it's a non-marketable skill like studying poetry for 4 years of your life lol

even so, you can just have a scout with your freighter- proceed to re-read at parts B&C at the top of this post.

Part D: fit your hulk with a proper shield tank with proper skills and use damage control II/shield extending rigs. have orca equip a large shield transporter and viola. + you can even overheat your tank if you catch it in time. solo gankers = less of a problem (need more destroyers at least)

really if you want to gank vs players, just make an alt. it starts with no negative security status so the people who check local a lot won't have you marked as a negative status player. (most of us slightly less autistic miners check local/mark -sec status with standings to keep track of easier) you even have two extra slots on your account. plus, did you know? you can delete them and make new ones! just gank until -5.0 and there you go! stick to 0.5 system security too, crappy concord response. if anything, local lets you know more easily when you show-info the miners and see "lol mining corp!" if Part D is in effect, doesn't really matter if the miner knows you're there or not. And seriously, most miners are too stupid to fit a DCII/shield rig/properly train shield skills.

i have no idea why null sec has local, but if you're so opposed to the idea of local, why not go to WH space. they usually fight back and are prepared though, probably something most people who like to gank aren't interested in. "fighting back" lol

p.s. bot = easily align -> part A -> hostile ship? "Warp drive activated" log out for a while/resume later/whatever. you're only wasting your time, not the bots. it probably has a "log out for x amount of time, resume at another bookmark/system"

Francisco Bizzaro
#97 - 2012-05-10 08:26:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Francisco Bizzaro
Freggan wrote:
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:
Freggan wrote:
Then if we agree player vs player means what massively multiplayer online game means then some people are going to be confused. Whats wrong with accepting the current intentions in all games at least till now that PVP is warfare orientated and MMOG is a lot of players is the same universe all playing together.

I don't see what the definition of MMO has to do with anything. Nor do I understand what "warfare oriented" means or what it has to do with the definition of PvP.

Exceedingly simply put type PVP into google. If you find it being used to advertise mining together or doing anything together that is not "warfare orientated" I would be surprised. You will find PVP used to explain/advertise/entice players into a MMOG for the purpose of player vs player warfare whether that will be in a tank, part of a larger battle or singly.

God forbid I ever have to turn to game advertisements as a sole source of truth. What a distorted reality that would be.

But literally expanded, PvP is "player against player" which does not specifically mention that the "against" has to take the form of "warfare oriented" anything. I interpret it as competitive play, and note that all aspects of Eve are competitive, most obviously through the market.

The only real consequence of "warfare oriented" activities in hi-sec is to gain or lose ISK (plus standings in the case of the aggressor in hi-sec), and ISK is the same point scoring system that the market and everything else in Eve uses as a measure of success. So I don't see that activities need to be singled out for special treatment simply because they are accompanied by explosion graphics.

And anyhow, as I've pointed out above, flying a hulk defensively denies targets to gankers, so that even if no shot is fired you have hampered their ability to do what they want to do. That is actually a combat PvP win by your "warfare oriented" definition and without any explosion.

So yeah, my interpretation of PvP is pretty broad. But I contend that it is the only useful one for a sandbox game like Eve.

At some level it's just a question of semantics. But it's also actually somewhat important for understanding how the game works. Confusion about the notion of PvP and PvE in this game leads miners and mission runners to feel entitled to special treatment in high-sec. (This is often because they import the definition of PvE from another game and try to apply it here.) Several threads started within the last week are driven by this confusion.
Tor Gungnir
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#98 - 2012-05-10 08:36:18 UTC
Can we please stop trying to fool ourselves the original poster and cronies wants this in order to "combat " bots? Please? They just want people to have even less of a chance to defend themselves.

People, not bots.

Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.

Haas Tabris
Peace Love n Harmony
#99 - 2012-05-10 08:43:41 UTC
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Can we please stop trying to fool ourselves the original poster and cronies wants this in order to "combat " bots? Please? They just want people to have even less of a chance to defend themselves.

People, not bots.

Hey Numbnuts, go read the post again. I want to nerf lowsec in order to kill 0.0 carebears. Like goons.
Tor Gungnir
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#100 - 2012-05-10 08:46:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Tor Gungnir
Haas Tabris wrote:
Tor Gungnir wrote:
Can we please stop trying to fool ourselves the original poster and cronies wants this in order to "combat " bots? Please? They just want people to have even less of a chance to defend themselves.

People, not bots.

Hey Numbnuts, go read the post again. I want to nerf lowsec in order to kill 0.0 carebears. Like goons.


Hey Numbskull. What makes you think I was referring to you? If you were talking about low-sec then I obviously did not intend to include you.

Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.