EVE General Discussion

Confirming that no one lived in null sec before jump drives.


Also for your information I have staged fuel and cyno alts in those jump routes. Cyno alts are throw aways and everyone has them. Also the fuel cost is absolute chump change, especially when an alliance has access to passive income like high end moons. Staging systems along the jump route are for the most part NPC stations that have fuel brought to them via jump freighter alts, most likely not really in the alliance the fuel is used for. All the while doing it with 100% safety.

So you proclaiming that it is a colossal pain in the ass to set these things up is a flat out lie. Compared to the pay off, extremely massive power projection at lighting fast speed, the cost of running such a jump network is an absolute joke!

Quality, Cost, Time; in no way should anyone or any entity in this game be able to have all three. You can pick two and the third must suffer.

- You want to project massive power quickly? It should cost you dramatically high.
- You want to quickly project power cheaply? Then the amount of power projected should be minimal.
- You want to project massive power cheaply? Then the amount of time to do so should be considerably high.

Is this really asking too much?

I think one of the major issues i have with the current mechanics is, that it impacts negatively the way massive warfare is conducted. This is based on the current sov mechanics and jumpdrive capability.

A major sov war would should be a massive conflict that is not decided in a few days. It should resemble 19th centuries wars, in which a single battle does not necessarily decide the outcome of a war. A sov conflict should include strategic depth and frontlines.

Currently, even big sov wars resemble skirmish warfare or at best some form of "blitzkrieg". Basically after a few days or weeks a conflict is decided. The looser collapses before he even brought the majority of his war assets into the conflict. It is a phenomenom that is usually described as "failcascade". This has the unfortunate side effect that assets are not destroyed. They just change sides. Staying power and long-term economic strength play only a minor role in these short conflicts. It prevents tactics like harassment, economic warfare and attrition tactics from being options. Loyalty to an alliance is not an option but is essentially dumb if you are on the loosing side.

Currently there is little in eve that provides a concept of "overextenting your power grasp". In my opinion this is really a game design issue and should be looked at mid to longterm.

It was definitely more challenging though.

you misspelled "tedious"

That'sbasically the gistof this thread. You want people become so bored off this game that they cancel their subscription instead of show up to a fight.

To add tho this rather hilarious topic coming from many high sec players...

And also to caveat off of other comments previously made.

Jumping does take planning and it does require a scout. The most vulnerable for a capital is when it jumps into the system and due to its metric ****ton of as* it has to haul and turn it takes a while for it to align especially the more larger they are. At that point if a neutral enters the system and notices a cyno up and running or if the capital pilot that jumped his ship in the first place into a system with a neutral or "baddy" is taking a considerable risk for his already expensive ship.

As we all know the only ships capable of making jumps are heavenly expensive, Rorqual for example, and Super Carriers and Titans which need the full cooperation of either an extremely wealthy and powerful and capable corporation or Alliance to build. Super Carriers themselves are also a big investment, some players take years to build a Super due to the sole fact of needing so much material and also putting up a POS and must be able to defend that POS without losing it. Jump ships of all sorts are very expensive so they add to the risk/reward aspect of the game. Are people willing to drop Supers blindly or Titans blindly anywhere in null sec without having proper intelligence? Would they be willing to expose something so expensive that if they lost it out of mere stupidity that the punishment if an alliance super or titan would be to just troll you and kick you out and ban you from the alliance/coalition.

The logistics of having jump capable ships. You have to remember that for null sec alliances Jumps can come VERY costly on top of fuel costs for the POSs needed to build such ships. Not only do they invest in building the ships themselves but also invest in the fuel for POSs, investment in having jump freighters constantly fueled to be able to build such ships. It takes hundreds of man hours to build a super and a lot of investment is put into it itself. For carriers and dreadnaughts and jump freighters yes they can be built in a station but look at the investment of a billion isk ship... a billion? thats it? Have at it. Jump freighters exempt from previous comment.

Defense of such expensive ships, you also have to think of defense for such ships, Supers and Titans only able to build in POSs? now think about that, Your putting a lot of risk in throwing it out in the open where anyone can just find a CSMA and blob it, Now most null sec alliances will that set up CSMAs in systems will put up cyno jammers to prevent other capital ships from destroying their investment with the "Win Buttan." At that point you need a subcapital fleet to enter the system, "god forbid it falls through the intel channels of the receiving alliance" and destroy the cyno jammer in order to jump in the attackers capitals. On top of that also the defenders will need to quickly rally any ships in the area, now sub capitals vs a metric f***ton of attacking capitals which have planned this attack and put the logistics into it is not going to stand a bloody chance, at that point it is only feasable to allow jump capable ships for a quick reaction to defend such a precious asset to them.

Jump capable ships have added more gameplay and more capabilities into eve allowing for more content, and thats what CCP wishes is content for players, yes watching capitals slug it out is like watching a goldfish look at you. It is painful. But it does add more dangers into the game, more content, and thus a bit more fun. With out jump capable ships many alliances would still resort to just blobbing each other and let me tell you if your complaining about jump capable ships then us "pretentious do***e bags" would simply blob high sec even more to just entertain us. What else would that isk go into if it werent for jump capable ships. Ill tell you from experience in a coalition full of joy and glee, it would go into cheap alpha capable ships destroying all the high sec tarts that complain about something that they never see or handle on a daily basis.

On top of all the isk heavily invested in building such ships, what about losing them? Capitals are lost, it is the game, they are lost, Supers, Titans, Carriers, Dreadnaughts, Jump Freighters. They are lost out of either pure stupidity (in my case ratting during a stratop during the delve invasion when i was a part of TEST.... sorry dudes) or lost against fleets slugging it out. At that point you need replacements, you need more logistics because fights have gotten more intense and the insanity levels of fleets have gone up. I feel bad for fleet commanders commanding capital fleets.

Espionage is also then at that point involved, Super Capital pilots and Titan pilots are targeted and monitored by an alliance wanting to go on the offence, intelligence gathering on where they are being built and which CSMA is the "real" CSMA. Alliances will watchlist any enemy Super Capital pilot and see if they blob at that point its either fight or flight.

Jump Freighters are a god send and at the same time a curse for null sec alliances, yes it makes logistics easier and faster for a fast paced alliance constantly losing ships, constantly needing fuel just to keep blowing them up. It allows us here in null sec to blow up faster and blow up again even faster, constantly adding fights and roams. or the dreadful gatecamp. They are a curse DUE to the massive target it paints. This is where espionage plays in, any good spy will learn of the logistics capabilities of any alliance. They learn their routes, what characters they use, when their next shipments are planned. Jump Freighter pilots dont always use sporadic jumping methods. They can be surprisingly predictable to a trained eye. Any fleet knowing of the logistics of any alliance can wreak a lot of pain on the receiving end. At that point it could mean that a jump bridge doesnt get fuel, which loses a fight

Huh, weird, I thought that this game was a job considering just how slow everything else is. The only thing that jump drives help are those that have a capital ship, the rest of us are ******. We get to fly around from system to system doing the tedious act of clicking away in hopes of reaching our destinations safely. So I guess the game is work for those that have a capital ship but meant to be another job for everyone else.

Seeing that I do not have a capital ship I have no problems with CCP either nerfing them so that they cannot cross such vast amounts of space in a second, or allow all ships to have varying levels of jump capability. The browser based Battlestar game actually has a decent system set up. Hell, I wish that game was fully developed so I could go play a space based game that is far less of a grindfest then eve.

The idea that jump capable ships are expensive to operate, therefore they should be able to move anywhere within 20 minutes is an absolute joke. By that logic a Maurader should also be jump capable and come with fighters. The need to operate a pos is also a joke since 0.0 is home to isk taps in the form of moons that can easily pay for it. Throw in the ton of alts and jump capable ships, including jump freighters and that supposedly monster sized task of fueling them just got a hell of a lot easier.

Jump ships are great for those that have all the isk they can need. They are great for holding onto isk faucets that fill the pockets of certain individuals in 0.0, they will never argue against it. Jump capable ships, and titan bridges are awesome for holding down the fort, regardless of the fact that you abandoned the fort until someone started poking around it.

Eve has become a game of chess. Yes, a game of chess. Except in this game one side is nothing but queens and the other side nothing but pawns. Queens that can be anywhere they wish to be with a capital and subcap fleet as soon as they wish. The side of pawns has nothing but slow moving, gate using, subcapital ships. The queens would be 0.0 alliances that hold more ground then they really should be able to, while the group of pawns are the groups that would like to move to 0.0 but cannot less they get crushed by hotdropping fleets.

CCP clearly has it in for the small fry alliances. The alliances that wish to move to 0.0 under their own power, under their terms. They clearly want people to use a 0.0 broker in the form of a "real" 0.0 alliance (as most players call them) by either joining them individually, or by renting the space that they are honestly to small to hold on their own. CCP does not want small groups of players fighting it out either amongst each other looking to secure some small piece of property in 0.0, or by reducing the "Massive fleets" that they have fighting each other that makes for good PR to sell more plex cards and generates new accounts as players hear of such large fights. It also does not want the small fry having a chance as who wants to hear of and think of being in charge of a small alliance when the idea of somehow getting thousands of players to listen to your ever word is much more appealing to the egos out there? CCP does not want that because it seems all to tribal instead of a world war taking place. No one cares about a tribal skirmish, but thousands of players killing each other? Thats another story. Small alliances gobbling up all of the space that the "real" alliances falsely hold would not make for a good PR story to any 2 bit 'gaming' site that cares.

It is not a matter of logistics. Roqs, carriers, and jump freighters move the goods. Jump freighters even more so. Titans gets smaller blobs from point A to point B, acting as a funnel without the risk to the funneling ship. It is not a matter of paying for isk in such an isk rich environment. If it becomes a problem just rent more of your empty space and charge more for it. Tax the playerbase that you have. run ops. Theres no reason to ***** to the rest of us about it costing isk, you're doing a iskbong, where the faster you can chug, the more isk you take in, all while doing a self promotional handstand. If you cannot afford it, you shouldn't be able to hold it, and lets face it if you cannot afford it..you're doing something wrong.


There is also no connection to the real world militaries and ccp's intention to keep a core group of players in power. Real militaries take days for their first responders to even rally, much less load up and arrive. The main forces take weeks to finally arrive in full force. The first responders are small in number, light in gear, and limited in supplies. In eve though the entire military can be on the opposite side of the 'world' in a few minutes flat. Forget the idea that RL ships are going to take weeks to get to their destination, that any airforce needs to fly to a series of bases along a path to a base behind the front line and that they need to have some logistics behind all that. Forget all of that because ccp really wants to ensure that a few players out of the entire population maintain their position as it makes for a great story for when they are hamming it up about the game. We don't want little groups with a plan attacking a large alliance's space when that alliance is fighting on a front on the other side of the game. It should matter and it should end up with them taking space or at least putting some hurt on that large alliance that didn't cover their butts

Of course, the idea that ccp wants to keep the small groups down was apparent from the day they nerfed the range of torps. Can't have a weapon that is going to hurt a cap having any range. Can't have that...no...blobs of battleships might be able to do some serious damage.

Forget logistics. Forget planning. Forget strategy. Forget having to defend ground. Forget the concept of garrison forces. Forget all that. Forget the idea that subcap fleets take the equivolent of weeks to travel about while the rich land barons of 0.0 can simply flash in at a moment's notice. Its all about the plex,nothing more, nothing less. By that I mean its all about ccp's bottom line, not having a great game that allows anyone to try and make a thrust into the holy land of eve which is ccp without the rich, in game and RL, being able to easily protect it even if they act like a bunch of braindead monkeys that are flinging banannas at each other and eating their crap.

Face it, travel mechanics in Eve suck, and they always have sucked. Time for an upgrade.

Jump drives are not the problem. Jump freighters on the other hand completely ruined eve.