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Do you group your weapons or not?

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Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#61 - 2012-05-08 18:56:59 UTC
Lexmana wrote:

And besides, who cares about your stupid question that never happen in EVE anyway?
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
Lets make this real simple. If you see one ship, and you are alone, is there a loss in DPS between grouping said weapons and firing them separately. That is what is being asked.



So you are saying that 1v1's do not happen? Would you care to explain some of these?
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=15138898

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=14597929

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=16042894

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=12223712

Call me crazy but it looks like you been in the above scenario at least 3 dozens times.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
#62 - 2012-05-08 18:58:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Micheal Dietrich
Lexmana wrote:

I can see it starting with me saying that there is a loss in DPS when killing multiple targets. Which is true. And you are in denial.



ok, now you are just being plain stupid. Our conversation is done.

Out of Pod is getting In the Pod - Join in game channel **IG OOPE **
Thabiso
Merchants of the Golden Goose
#63 - 2012-05-08 19:32:48 UTC
Kieron VonDeux wrote:
Thabiso wrote:
Jiska Ensa wrote:
This does, of course, all apply only to guns, which have random damage.

The idiots ungrouping their misile launchers are just trying to make more lag, me thinks.


Speaking as a grade a moron, I will definitely be ungrouping me missiles when the new launchers and graphic are launched. Going to be awesome having 7 missiles going in all sorts of directions @ 2 sec interval. DPS and alpha my ass - awesome looking is what counts when you are going through the pearly gates in one massive fireball.



On Sisi, you already have multiple missiles for grouped missile turrets. So, no need to ungroup to get missiles going multiple directions.
They already do when grouped.


My point is I would send them to 5 (or 7 in BS) different targets to get maximum awesomeness.
Lexmana
#64 - 2012-05-08 19:56:47 UTC
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
Call me crazy but it looks like you been in the above scenario at least 3 dozens times.

Good digging but you should know my lossboard is far from complete. There are even more of them. But it does not change the fact that 1v1 situations is a special case and not representative of more than a tiny proportion of all encounters in EVE. My point still stands that when killing multiple targets you get more DPS from ungrouped guns.
Minari Inocari
Nebula Rasa Vanguard
Nebula Rasa
#65 - 2012-05-08 20:00:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Minari Inocari
"Does grouping reduce DPS" No. A dev answered it, and that is not the question at hand. People are discussing multiple targets and the ability to split dps, so I will cover a few theoretical scenarios.


Assume I have two guns which both deal 50 damage.
For scenarios 1 and 2, Target A and B both have 100 Health, and can boost 50 health as soon as I hit them.

Scenario 1:
I put both guns on A
A takes 100 damage and is alpha'd
I put both guns on B
B takes 100 damage and is alpha'd

Scenario 2:
I put one gun on A and one gun on B.
A and B both take 50 damage and have 50 left
A and B both have the opportunity to boost 50 health and now have 100.
A and B would then both take at least 2 more volleys to die.
(This is the situation described with two drakes, albeit different numbers)

In these cases, there is a loss in effective dps when targets are split because of the better opportunity to heal.


Now for the next two secnarios, Target A and B both have 50 health

Scenario 3:
I put both guns on A
A takes 100 damage and is alpha'd (50 damage overkill)
I put both guns on B
B takes 100 damage and is alpha'd (50 damage overkill)

Scenario 4:
I put one gun on A and one gun on B.
A and B both take 50 damage and are alpha'd

In these cases, there is a loss in dps when the targets are NOT split because of the damage needed compared to the excessive damage used.


To conclude:
In the first two scenarios, where the targets can both not be killed in one shot and can heal, focus fire is important.
In the second two scenarios, where the targets have the ability to be killed in one shot, distributed fire will help more.
Having ungrouped weapons will allow scenarios 2 and 4, but grouped weapons will help laziness in scenarios 1 and 3.

All in all, having ungrouped weapons will allow you to distribute DPS according to the situation, but grouped weapons will mean less buttons you need to press and an easier time on the servers. Situation is key.
Lexmana
#66 - 2012-05-08 20:10:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexmana
Minari Inocari wrote:

All in all, having ungrouped weapons will allow you to distribute DPS according to the situation, but grouped weapons will mean less buttons you need to press and an easier time on the servers. Situation is key.

You are missing the point. You should still focus fire with ungrouped guns. It is just that whenever one gun is enough to kill the target (it can be alpha but also the fourth or fifth volley) the other gun doesn't even cycle and can be applied to another target instantly = more DPS on target.
Minari Inocari
Nebula Rasa Vanguard
Nebula Rasa
#67 - 2012-05-08 20:21:40 UTC
Lexmana wrote:
and can be applied to another target instantly = more DPS on target.


ergo: scenario 4, you have damage you don't need to kill the target. I didn't miss it.
Alexa Coates
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2012-05-08 20:27:29 UTC
Sometimes, with the old turrets, i ungrouped them so they could have a stagger shot. On ships that have them all in a line or other regular shape (like the tier 3 bs's) it just looks and sounds sooo cool.

That's a Templar, an Amarr fighter used by carriers.
Lexmana
#69 - 2012-05-08 20:29:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexmana
Minari Inocari wrote:
Lexmana wrote:
and can be applied to another target instantly = more DPS on target.


ergo: scenario 4, you have damage you don't need to kill the target. I didn't miss it.

I was thinking of your scenario 2 where you seem to imply that ungrouped guns shoot at different targets. They shouldn't.
Diamonica Norya
Pro Synergy
#70 - 2012-05-08 23:22:11 UTC
just in response to the OP from a PVE perspective, turrets only

always group for me except for large artillery which I used split groups.

anything I can get around < 7s ROF I just group and depend on the aggregate dps, let my drones pick the targets I don't have the interest or means to hit effectively.

so yeah, I will alpha mwd elite frigs with my tachyon beam from distance if i have to, it actually means my drones don't spend time chasing and try take them down in a prolonged fight (usually 20s on average depend on which drones and chance of misses).

Different things works for different people, and circumstances change + scenarios can be different. In PVE it is rather predictable and you can fit / group / ungroup accordingly.

PVP:
I don't have enough experience to comment on, every PVP encounter can be different (fits / modules / skills / decision making), and it keeps it interesting because ppl will continue to discuss / comment / (argue) based on what works for them the best. But it's good because it doesn't have to be fixed or it'd be just simply dull.
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#71 - 2012-05-08 23:33:58 UTC
Lexmana wrote:

I was thinking of your scenario 2 where you seem to imply that ungrouped guns shoot at different targets. They shouldn't.


They should when you can alpha multiple targets with a single volley.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#72 - 2012-05-08 23:46:29 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
We do all the hit/damage amount calculations (including wrecking shots) per-gun, even with grouped weapons. It's just that the total damage from each volley is then aggregated and applied to the target in one go.


Thanks !!


To answer the question:

Artillery is what i use mostly unstacked, so i can switch targets faster.
Sigurd Sig Hansen
Doomheim
#73 - 2012-05-09 00:05:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Sigurd Sig Hansen
WNxWolfy wrote:
You deal more damage with weapons ungrouped.
That being said, in a large fleet you'll want weapons grouped in groups of 8/4 to alpha targets before reps can catch.


I remember there used to be an issue where when you grouped missiles the first oner hit and the rest of the rouped flight went all missile command and got killed by the first one (which is interesting given that theyre not AOE) that went off and thats why you had to stagger them. But Ive heard since that got fixed


LOL at ppl still arguing the point when the GM is telling you how it works

unless in your opinion the GM doesnt know what he's talking about...

Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game
ELECTR0FREAK
#74 - 2012-05-09 00:30:46 UTC  |  Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK
It's kinda scary how much "Turret Use 101" is in the latter part of this thread...


Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote:
...LOL at ppl still arguing the point when the GM is telling you how it works

unless in your opinion the GM doesnt know what he's talking about...


Actually he's a Game Design Dev, which gives him even more credibility.

Discoverer of CCP's original missile damage formula.
Nemesis Factor
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#75 - 2012-05-09 01:33:57 UTC
Leisha Galen wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Doctor Caprician wrote:
So is there, or is there not, a loss to DPS when using grouped weapons?


There should be no difference in any user-facing metric between firing n guns in a group and firing n guns separately at exactly the same time. It just saves us a bunch of server load when you group them Smile


Mister Greyscale Sir, with respect. When the new Missile Launchers arrive, I too will be ungrouping all my launchers just for the eye-candy which will ensue. Big smile How can I not watch those lovely missiles and launchers in operation, all the hard work the Dev's who made this possible worked so hard to do ?

I hope the servers are ready to cater for many other Missile players who will do the same thing, even if it eventually becomes "so so" and we group them once more.

*wipes a happy tear from the corner of his eye*

o/



Load up Sisi. Missiles are not grouped together graphically, even if the launchers are. It will look teh same regardless :)
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#76 - 2012-05-09 01:38:22 UTC
Grouped most of the time; sometimes 2 groups and occaisionally 3 if I think whatever I'm shooting is going to be massive overkill with all on one group. Small Mission Rats for example, though I haven't done that in awhile.

Personally, the real benefit to me for grouping weapons is HUD-space and F1-F2-F3-etc.. makes it much less cumbersome. I never used the F-keys before as you needed to Alt F-key or cycle thorugh all of them. Now I can fit a basic ship and only need 2-5 F-Keys to use all my mods generally. Not including 1 or 2 that I just mouse cycle, but the important ones needed for hasty situations anyway. 
zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
Korsiri
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#77 - 2012-05-09 01:48:05 UTC
I group em usually /shrugs but also a lot of my guys just don't have the skills to fit all the guns possible in their ships, necessarily. Meaning I'm not really grouping more than 2 to 3 anyway lol
MadMuppet
Critical Mass Inc
#78 - 2012-05-09 02:16:29 UTC  |  Edited by: MadMuppet
Only time I don't group is on artillery boats. When flying those I group in groups of two at the most (F1-F4), I just rest my fingers on the triggers. I do this because: 1. Artillery can turn a target in to tapioca pudding if the tracking is right 2. They take forever to reload.

Example, in my L3 blitzing Loki I have 6x720mm Artillery guns. They are in pairs on F1-F3. I tap F1.. did it pop? (ala does it blend). No? Then I hit F2... yep it popped. The next target is highlighted so I hit F3... fine red mist.. on to the next target.... Now the first pair (F1) has reloaded... WHO'S NEXT?

This message brought to you by Experience(tm). When common sense fails you, experience will come to the rescue. Experience(tm) from the makers of CONCORD.

"If you are part of the problem, you will be nerfed." -MadMuppet
Lexmana
#79 - 2012-05-09 06:10:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexmana
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Lexmana wrote:

I was thinking of your scenario 2 where you seem to imply that ungrouped guns shoot at different targets. They shouldn't.


They should when you can alpha multiple targets with a single volley.

Yeah this is true when you know you will alpha your target. But sometimes the target survive anyway (if only briefly) and that comes at a cost.

In large fleet fights this cost is not very high since the target usually dies the next server tick or two anyway. But in small gangs, or solo, a failed alpha kill can be much more costly and focus fire (with split guns ofc) is the way to go even when you think there is a high chance you will alpha your target with only one of your guns.
Gealbhan
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#80 - 2012-05-09 07:27:01 UTC
Grouped weapons is situational... normally in PvP Do Not group them, stagger your weapons fire to have a constant stream of damage rather than burst. If it's a single target and you're in a wolf pack then grouping them for an alpha strike would be ok.