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Why 95% of EVE solo and small gang PVP is dead.
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Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2012-05-08 03:53:00 UTC
Darthewok wrote:
I agree with the points.

Another 2 issues are:
1) The greatly increased use of Assault ships and Faction frigates. If 3 inties came to tackle you, no real problem, just use your WarriorIIs, neuts, or just ignore their weak damage. If a Harpy, and Enyo and an inty comes to tackle you, they can tank your drones, cap boost past your neuts and do massive damage so you cannot ignore them.
This increased frigate power has reduced the ability of soloers and small gangs to engage and disengage quickly by quickly killng/neuting tackle.

2) T3 cruisers like the Tengu. If 1-2 of these turn up, it severely changes the power equation.

The impact of these 2 things may be small, but the cumulative impact of all these changes add up, making it harder and harder for solo and small gang.


Even putting aside for a second off-grid links, T3s are/were an actual net boost to solo'ing for all the reasons you imply they were a negative.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#42 - 2012-05-08 04:17:05 UTC
Darthewok wrote:
I agree with the points.

Another 2 issues are:
1) The greatly increased use of Assault ships and Faction frigates. If 3 inties came to tackle you, no real problem, just use your WarriorIIs, neuts, or just ignore their weak damage. If a Harpy, and Enyo and an inty comes to tackle you, they can tank your drones, cap boost past your neuts and do massive damage so you cannot ignore them.
This increased frigate power has reduced the ability of soloers and small gangs to engage and disengage quickly by quickly killng/neuting tackle.

2) T3 cruisers like the Tengu. If 1-2 of these turn up, it severely changes the power equation.

The impact of these 2 things may be small, but the cumulative impact of all these changes add up, making it harder and harder for solo and small gang.


Both these changes are actually a boost to solo and small gang warfare - since you have agile ships that do good DPS. Solo and small gang warfare is about picking when to engage. Then killing the other guy as fast as possible and getting the hell out of Dodge. Assault ships and faction frigates are both good at this. T3s are as well.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#43 - 2012-05-08 05:07:40 UTC
Man I had a solo fight 2 days ago, then killed a supercap yesterday
I get best of both worlds mang

Anyway, the nano age was all sorts of gay crap and anyone who supports that sort of isk4win trash needs their opinion immediately discredited hth
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#44 - 2012-05-08 08:33:16 UTC
Biggest gang I've seen in 5 months is 16 ships, which sort of draws the carpet from under the "small gang is dead" -claim for me at least.

I see also a lot of solo pilots looking for solo activity. Maybe null is not the best place to look for small pew?

Often it takes a while to find a fight, but we've never run into issues in finding engagement suitable for our micro gang. People we meet are out for the same thing, and the general spirit is very sporty Cool

Honestly idk, to me it feels like the sandbox, solo & small gang is very much alive and well. Guys like Kil2, Kovorix, Azual and Garmon+crew are doing a great job inspiring people to grab a ship and try their luck.

.
Joran Dravius
Doomheim
#45 - 2012-05-08 12:23:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Joran Dravius
stoicfaux wrote:
Why is solo and small gang PvP important? Empire building is about numbers and fleets and resources and strategy. Small time thugs mugging each other isn't important in the big picture.

Because being an F1 slave in 0.0 is boring as **** and Eve is a game. Having fun is the whole point.
Xi 'xar
Mise en Abyme
The Ancients.
#46 - 2012-05-08 13:15:02 UTC
I get the feeling that this is a whine thread...

http://herdingwolves.wordpress.com/
Lady Spank
Get Out Nasty Face
#47 - 2012-05-08 13:30:11 UTC
Xi 'xar wrote:
I get the feeling that this is a whine thread...

Thats what a moron would say, yes.

(ಠ_ృ) ~ It Takes a Million Years to Become Diamonds So Lets Just Burn Like Coal Until the Sky's Black ~ (ಠ_ృ)
Prez21
D-sync
D-sync.
#48 - 2012-05-08 13:51:30 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Man I had a solo fight 2 days ago, then killed a supercap yesterday
I get best of both worlds mang

Anyway, the nano age was all sorts of gay crap and anyone who supports that sort of isk4win trash needs their opinion immediately discredited hth


Your either an alt so your opinion counts for nothing or your main doesnt do much pvp. Nano was fun, yes certain speeds were too much and needed chabging but it was nerfed too much.

Logis and massive buffer fits and huge numbers completely ruing pvp for me, i dont mind a few but the amount of logis used is stupid. Ive seen 20 blaster ships fail to break a ships tank because of logis and thats wrong and is the reason why alpha is used so often now.

For me WH pvp is the only thing left that resembles fun tatical small scale warfare, even low sec is a blob fest.
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#49 - 2012-05-08 14:19:26 UTC
Comments on your points:

1) Nano nerf was really needed, nanos have obsoleted every other style of fighting in the past.

2) Don't see any issues with web nerf. If you really need extremy strong web, get one of those web bonused faction ships. Oversized AB is no problem at all. Even these 100MN AB Tengus are killable, so everything is fine, you just need a plan to do so.

3) Problem with active tanking is: if you allow to good tanking then people will be basically unable to kill each other solo... this will make the blob the only way to go. Therefore CCP decided to raise buffer tanks to allow ships stay longer in fights but not run into problem with active tanking.

4) Adapt to it und just run if hot dropped... then rinse and repeat. A hot drop costs ISK so if you can't kill them then kill their ISK.

5) NOS where too powerful in the past. Neutralizers are fine as they are, no need to change them. Especially small neutralizers are maybe even a bit underpowered if compared to medium and large ones. Especially their short range is a real issue.

6) ECCM should be just more powerful to solve the ECM issue.

7) I agree... remove local from 0.0!

8) Tracking Enhancers no issue at all... learn to approach the right way and then you have no problems tackling Tier 3 BC.
Prez21
D-sync
D-sync.
#50 - 2012-05-08 14:35:04 UTC
Meditril wrote:
Comments on your points:


8) Tracking Enhancers no issue at all... learn to approach the right way and then you have no problems tackling Tier 3 BC.




This one caught my eye, close range weapons hitting out to 80km with decent dps isnt an issue? really?
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#51 - 2012-05-08 14:50:18 UTC
Prez21 wrote:
Meditril wrote:
Comments on your points:


8) Tracking Enhancers no issue at all... learn to approach the right way and then you have no problems tackling Tier 3 BC.




This one caught my eye, close range weapons hitting out to 80km with decent dps isnt an issue? really?


I have no idea what you are talking about, but so far I had no issue with approaching an Oracle or any other Tier 3 BC in an Interceptor or Assault Frigate and get it tackled. You just need to avoid flying the direct and stright way to him. Fly a proper arc and problem is solved. This includes manual piloting. T1/Faction-Frigates are naturally a different story since they do not get any bonus on MWD bloom reduction.
Prez21
D-sync
D-sync.
#52 - 2012-05-08 14:54:40 UTC
Meditril wrote:
Prez21 wrote:
Meditril wrote:
Comments on your points:


8) Tracking Enhancers no issue at all... learn to approach the right way and then you have no problems tackling Tier 3 BC.




This one caught my eye, close range weapons hitting out to 80km with decent dps isnt an issue? really?


I have no idea what you are talking about, but so far I had no issue with approaching an Oracle or any other Tier 3 BC in an Interceptor or Assault Frigate and get it tackled. You just need to avoid flying the direct and stright way to him. Fly a proper arc and problem is solved. This includes manual piloting. T1/Faction-Frigates are naturally a different story since they do not get any bonus on MWD bloom reduction.


The op was referring to the fact that certain ships can use short range high dps weapons and still hit out to 80-100km, if you dont realise what is wromg with that then i dont know what to say to you, im not talking about it being hard to tackle, i know how transversal works and how to avoid being hit, were talking about weapons that are meant to be used at close range hitting at long range because of tracking enchancers.
Lyron-Baktos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2012-05-08 14:59:32 UTC
tbh, solo and very small gang PVP will always struggle unless CCP drastically changes the games mechanics, which they will not.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#54 - 2012-05-08 15:32:20 UTC
Line of sight is the solution you are looking for.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#55 - 2012-05-08 16:18:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
Quote:
This one caught my eye, close range weapons hitting out to 80km with decent dps isnt an issue? really?


To hit out to >80km you need an Apoc with three optimal-scripted TCIIs, scorch, and mega pulses. An oracle that uses all three of its mids for optimal-scripted TCIIs and mega pulses gets 63.5km optimal.

hmm, what am I missing?

Oh, if you don't mind losing fully half of your DPS to falloff, you can do that in a Macharial.


And every ship that could possibly do this with close range weapons is a battleship, which is to say, expensive, slow, and with terribad tracking. But you're right. Truly sniper-pulse-apocs are the bane of small gang PVP.

Quote:
The op was referring to the fact that certain ships can use short range high dps weapons and still hit out to 80-100km


The OP doesn't have the slightest idea what he's talking about.
Prez21
D-sync
D-sync.
#56 - 2012-05-08 16:43:26 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Quote:
This one caught my eye, close range weapons hitting out to 80km with decent dps isnt an issue? really?


To hit out to >80km you need an Apoc with three optimal-scripted TCIIs, scorch, and mega pulses. An oracle that uses all three of its mids for optimal-scripted TCIIs and mega pulses gets 63.5km optimal.

hmm, what am I missing?

Oh, if you don't mind losing fully half of your DPS to falloff, you can do that in a Macharial.


And every ship that could possibly do this with close range weapons is a battleship, which is to say, expensive, slow, and with terribad tracking. But you're right. Truly sniper-pulse-apocs are the bane of small gang PVP.

Quote:
The op was referring to the fact that certain ships can use short range high dps weapons and still hit out to 80-100km


The OP doesn't have the slightest idea what he's talking about.


you dont know what your talking about an apoc with 2 tracking enchancers ( know one was even talking about tracking computers) hits out to 100km just under. The abaddon hits to 76km with a 60km optimal doing 650dps without implants, and these are with supposed close range guns. Close range guns should not be hitting past 40km, they completely obselete many of the other turret systems. And the mach can hit upto 110km with close range ACs, yes you lose dps cause off falliff but close range weapons shouldnt hit that far.

So my point still stands that tracking enchancers give too much extra range, and it does affect small gang warfare.

You say the op doesnt know what hes talking about but his pvp track record is a lot better than yours.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#57 - 2012-05-08 17:01:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
Quote:
you dont know what your talking about an apoc with 2 tracking enchancers ( know one was even talking about tracking computers) hits out to 100km just under. The abaddon hits to 76km with a 60km optimal doing 650dps without implants, and these are with supposed close range guns. Close range guns should not be hitting past 40km, they completely obselete many of the other turret systems. And the mach can hit upto 110km with close range ACs, yes you lose dps cause off falliff but close range weapons shouldnt hit that far.


Someone doesn't understand how falloff mechanics work. At optimal + falloff you deal about 40% of your paper DPS.

So, the Apoc is only doing this damage at 80-90km. This is one ship with one specific setup. In fact, the only ships that can do this stuff at all is the ships that get ridiculous range bonuses because they're supposed to do that.

Oh, and the mach and apoc would both need sensor boosters or sensor rigs to hit out that far. Max-skilled Apoc's base targeting range is 84km, 77km for the Mach.



More importantly, I'd love to see evidence that these setups are killing small gang and solo PVP. How many sniperpulseApocblobs do you really see running around?


Quote:
You say the op doesnt know what hes talking about but his pvp track record is a lot better than yours.


lol
Kristoffon Ellecon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2012-05-08 17:04:44 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Ask yourself... why do you want to fight solo or small gang fights?

Is it because your e-honor demands that you fly solo? or in small groups of elite warriors?

Is it because there is some personal crusade you hope to accomplish?

Do you wish to terrorize others weaker or less prepared than you?

Is it because your ego demands that you find ways to triumph against seemingly overwhelming odds and vaunt over your less skillful, but more numerous enemies?

Is it because there are only two people in the universe you trust, one of them is you and the other is your friend who lives within kicking distance?


I love soloing and it's because of none of your short-sighted reasons. It's because nothing approaches the satisfaction, the feeling of accomplishment you get by killing a target, or targets, on your own. Or barring that, with a small group of people that have a clue to what they're doing.

I've been part of blob warfare where you basically push the buttons the fc says and let me tell you if I were going to stick to doing that I might as well be mining or watching tv or sleeping.
Prez21
D-sync
D-sync.
#59 - 2012-05-08 17:11:14 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Quote:
you dont know what your talking about an apoc with 2 tracking enchancers ( know one was even talking about tracking computers) hits out to 100km just under. The abaddon hits to 76km with a 60km optimal doing 650dps without implants, and these are with supposed close range guns. Close range guns should not be hitting past 40km, they completely obselete many of the other turret systems. And the mach can hit upto 110km with close range ACs, yes you lose dps cause off falliff but close range weapons shouldnt hit that far.


Someone doesn't understand how falloff mechanics work. At optimal + falloff you deal about 40% of your paper DPS. If you're engaging at that range you might as well be using beams.

So, the Apoc is only doing this damage at 80-90km. This is one ship with one specific setup. In fact, the only ships that can do this stuff at all is the ships that get ridiculous range bonuses because they're supposed to do that.



More importantly, I'd love to see evidence that these setups are killing small gang and solo PVP. How many sniperpulseApocblobs do you really see running around?


I never said these ranges were killing small scale pvp, i was agreeing with the op that tracking enchancers are messed up, and i understand perfectly how falloff works. My point is Apocs with close ranges weapons can still hit to 80km thats optimal, abaddons can hit to 60km+ doing full damage, these are meant to be close range weapons.

How many ships have to fight in scram web range anymore? Gallente, frigs, certain cruisers, the op was pointing out that due to tracking echancers most people dont ever fight at close ranges anymore. People dont commit to pvp as much anymore.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#60 - 2012-05-08 17:23:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
yo let me rephrase your arguments

1) ever since the nano nerf I can't immediately pull out whenever things go south for me
2) nobody in my cookie cutter gang is flying a ship bonused for web strength
3) abloobloobloo
4) hey guys let's engage that lone drake on the gate it's not bait this time
5) abloobloobloo
6) everyone in the game packs ECM drones everywhere at all times
7) I don't want a fight, I just want to pick off individual ratters with my 20-strong gang without risk of detection
8) probes? what are those?
9) ECM? what is that?
10) I've never heard of Dominion's sov mechanics and I still think that sovereignty is based on towers

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar