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CCP handing over datacores to FW and say g-bye to research/T2 in hisec.

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Indahmawar Fazmarai
#1 - 2012-05-07 06:58:50 UTC
Do you CSM guys think it's worth to notice/comment on the issue? Are you OK with it?

Have a look at the thread and read what CCP Goonwave has to say and what everybody else has to say:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1200907#post1200907

Just in case you didn't notice, huh.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#2 - 2012-05-07 08:28:11 UTC
The very stats in your own sig are a strong indicator that 0.0 needs a buff compared to hi-sec.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2012-05-07 09:15:02 UTC
Any step towards making lowsec more valuable, however small, is a step in the right direction. If the only casualties are a bunch of buttmad crybabies upset that they can't do Their Favorite Thing anymore, all the better.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
#4 - 2012-05-07 09:35:34 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Any step towards making lowsec more valuable, however small, is a step in the right direction. If the only casualties are a bunch of buttmad crybabies upset that they can't do Their Favorite Thing anymore, all the better.


Only a goon would think that these changes are going to make lowsec more valuable.
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2012-05-07 09:50:42 UTC
Ten Bulls wrote:
Only a goon would think that these changes are going to make lowsec more valuable.


I didn't say it would be by much, or anywhere near starting to be enough. Also still doesn't change my point that the only real opposition to it are people who have R&D agents, and most of their opposition is limited to "BUT THAT'S WHAT I DO!".

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
#6 - 2012-05-07 10:45:11 UTC
IMO the bigger issue is CCP wanting to move T2 production to lowsec and zero-sec.

The biggest reason to to have a POS in high sec is to copy for invention (T2 Production), look in any system wit hisec status of 0.5-07 and see how many people CCP is messing with, what are the implications of 90% of high sec POS's disappearing, whos going to build stuff for low-sec, zero-sec people to buy, you think they will do it themselves ?

Datacores have already been nerfed once this year, they are doing it again, and industrialist are left wondering what will be next, what to put your skill in if you expect one CCP employee might wake up one day and decide to fundamentally change the game with no discussion or consultation with the community.

Apparently research alts and clogging up the character sales sites, with nobody buying. CCP have created a confidence crisis in one of three core components of the game, its not a trivial matter, and its not just about some characters getting a moderate passive income.

And i think its not going to bring any boost to low sec anyway, it might attract mercenaries into FW, but do they want that ?
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2012-05-07 11:32:46 UTC
Wow, this is some next level crazytown stuff.

First, towers aren't just going to vanish from highsec. BP copying actually has purposes beyond T2 production, and that's to say nothing of ME/PE research. The actual building of things is pretty much never going to move from highsec, as it's far too convenient, regardless of CCP playing with the origins of components.

Second, calling people who farmed datacores "industrialists" is just dumb, unless you're referring to the ones that are trying to do invention vertically, in which case they're paste-eating stupid and what they worry about should firmly be filed under "who cares?".

Third, there's no confidence crisis, there's a bunch of whiny carebears upset that The Thing They Did isn't viable anymore and bleating about ~LOST SKILL POINTS~ (even though RPM is the only skill of the bunch whose value is diminished by this change). Hell I even saw one guy whining about how all the skillbooks/etc cost him 600mil and expected that to be reimbursed even though he'd been doing R&D for two years.

Last, it might not bring much of a boost to lowsec in and of itself, but the mentality of bringing an important part of something that happens in Eve to lowsec is nothing but good. Hopefully its' the first of many, many more things.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Killer Gandry
The Concilium Enterprises
#8 - 2012-05-07 11:50:39 UTC
CSM won't discuss this.

It's already a done deal so let's just cancelt those datacore accounts people.
Maybe there are enough accounts being cancelled to make CCP aware of yet another idiotic idea.

And before some Goon scrybaby warps in with the obligatory blablabla responce.
I don't have an alt accountfor datacore farming nor do I have more than 1 research agent running so my loss is even less than minimal.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#9 - 2012-05-07 12:40:30 UTC
Killer Gandry wrote:
CSM won't discuss this.

It's already a done deal so let's just cancelt those datacore accounts people.
Maybe there are enough accounts being cancelled to make CCP aware of yet another idiotic idea.

And before some Goon scrybaby warps in with the obligatory blablabla responce.
I don't have an alt accountfor datacore farming nor do I have more than 1 research agent running so my loss is even less than minimal.



Have you forgotten that your current slew of datacore farming alts will still produce datacores for you?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#10 - 2012-05-07 12:51:27 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Wow, this is some next level crazytown stuff.

First, towers aren't just going to vanish from highsec. BP copying actually has purposes beyond T2 production, and that's to say nothing of ME/PE research. The actual building of things is pretty much never going to move from highsec, as it's far too convenient, regardless of CCP playing with the origins of components.

Second, calling people who farmed datacores "industrialists" is just dumb, unless you're referring to the ones that are trying to do invention vertically, in which case they're paste-eating stupid and what they worry about should firmly be filed under "who cares?".

Third, there's no confidence crisis, there's a bunch of whiny carebears upset that The Thing They Did isn't viable anymore and bleating about ~LOST SKILL POINTS~ (even though RPM is the only skill of the bunch whose value is diminished by this change). Hell I even saw one guy whining about how all the skillbooks/etc cost him 600mil and expected that to be reimbursed even though he'd been doing R&D for two years.

Last, it might not bring much of a boost to lowsec in and of itself, but the mentality of bringing an important part of something that happens in Eve to lowsec is nothing but good. Hopefully its' the first of many, many more things.


CCP Soundwave said:

Quote:
We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec.


Now please, tell, how can CCP achieve that without removing T2 from hisec? Who's gonna move his ass to lowsec/nullsec if they're as much as allowed to do the same in hisec?

CCP should really stop threading on hisecccers. We give them 4.5 million dollars each bloody month! We are not to be treated like scapegoats ready for slaughter when someone in nullsec asks for fun! Evil
Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
#11 - 2012-05-07 12:56:27 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Wow, this is some next level crazytown stuff.

First, towers aren't just going to vanish from highsec. BP copying actually has purposes beyond T2 production, and that's to say nothing of ME/PE research. The actual building of things is pretty much never going to move from highsec, as it's far too convenient, regardless of CCP playing with the origins of components.


Agreed, there is no way these changes will achieve their stated intent of moving T2 production away from high sec.
Killer Gandry
The Concilium Enterprises
#12 - 2012-05-07 14:40:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Killer Gandry
Malcanis wrote:


Have you forgotten that your current slew of datacore farming alts will still produce datacores for you?


And there goes the last shred of respect I might have had for you.

Killer Gandry wrote:

I don't have an alt account for datacore farming nor do I have more than 1 research agent running so my loss is even less than minimal.


You seem to be under the missconception that you are still making sense.
Hroya
#13 - 2012-05-07 18:45:43 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:
Wow, this is some next level crazytown stuff.

First, towers aren't just going to vanish from highsec. BP copying actually has purposes beyond T2 production, and that's to say nothing of ME/PE research. The actual building of things is pretty much never going to move from highsec, as it's far too convenient, regardless of CCP playing with the origins of components.

Second, calling people who farmed datacores "industrialists" is just dumb, unless you're referring to the ones that are trying to do invention vertically, in which case they're paste-eating stupid and what they worry about should firmly be filed under "who cares?".

Third, there's no confidence crisis, there's a bunch of whiny carebears upset that The Thing They Did isn't viable anymore and bleating about ~LOST SKILL POINTS~ (even though RPM is the only skill of the bunch whose value is diminished by this change). Hell I even saw one guy whining about how all the skillbooks/etc cost him 600mil and expected that to be reimbursed even though he'd been doing R&D for two years.

Last, it might not bring much of a boost to lowsec in and of itself, but the mentality of bringing an important part of something that happens in Eve to lowsec is nothing but good. Hopefully its' the first of many, many more things.


Bolded the important part wich points out the whole issue with any change(s) they make.
It's not about getting people to move to low or null sec, it's about keeping them there. To many conviniences coming from high sec.
99,99% of the players operate through, via or with the help of high sec.

The reall question about any gamechanges concerning the alocation of people should be "What to do to keep them there"
How can you make changes so that players would leave any ties behind and truelly carve out their own empire in other parts of eve without the convinience of high sec.

All other half arsed alterations are useless because it will still be the same bragging "leet" players hiding behind carebear gamemechanics.

You go your corridor but.
Katarina Reid
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-05-08 00:18:52 UTC
When CCP Soundwave said: "We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec". I thought the only way was to give low/0.0 a bonus to invention chance or production costs. Then it wouldnt be profitable to make t2 in high sec anymore. Just moving the datacores will do nothing.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#15 - 2012-05-08 06:45:52 UTC
Katarina Reid wrote:
When CCP Soundwave said: "We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec". I thought the only way was to give low/0.0 a bonus to invention chance or production costs. Then it wouldnt be profitable to make t2 in high sec anymore. Just moving the datacores will do nothing.


First off, it's dubious that nullsec/lowsec need any more incentives. Specially nullsec.You want an incentive for nullsec? Open it to players who don't come from Something Awful or whatever alien grounds the uberalliances get their new recruits. Get rid of uberalaliances and turn nulsle citn the blodo ywild west isntead of medievla europe and oh don't trespass meh baron's border.

Second, as has been stated enough times to get through even the thickest skulls, more reward is not going to make people prefer nullsec or lowsec over hisec. More reward as mcuh may keep people there, but whoever choose to stay in hisec, is going to stay or quit, won't move up the risk ladder no matter what oyu do. This is why 3/4 of the bloody game are in hisec.

People choose a risk/reward and stick to it or quit.

So essentially people will not move from hisec as long as they are allowed to build T2 there. Which means that CCP Goonwave must remove T2 from hisec in order to effectively hand it to nullsec.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#16 - 2012-05-08 10:25:22 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Katarina Reid wrote:
When CCP Soundwave said: "We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec". I thought the only way was to give low/0.0 a bonus to invention chance or production costs. Then it wouldnt be profitable to make t2 in high sec anymore. Just moving the datacores will do nothing.


First off, it's dubious that nullsec/lowsec need any more incentives. Specially nullsec.You want an incentive for nullsec? Open it to players who don't come from Something Awful or whatever alien grounds the uberalliances get their new recruits. Get rid of uberalaliances and turn nulsle citn the blodo ywild west isntead of medievla europe and oh don't trespass meh baron's border.

Second, as has been stated enough times to get through even the thickest skulls, more reward is not going to make people prefer nullsec or lowsec over hisec. More reward as mcuh may keep people there, but whoever choose to stay in hisec, is going to stay or quit, won't move up the risk ladder no matter what oyu do. This is why 3/4 of the bloody game are in hisec.

People choose a risk/reward and stick to it or quit.

So essentially people will not move from hisec as long as they are allowed to build T2 there. Which means that CCP Goonwave must remove T2 from hisec in order to effectively hand it to nullsec.



Leaving aside your strawman that all of 0.0 is controlled by goons (about 25-30% is), what do you think Sov space is for if not to build mighty player empires in?

You seem to think that everyone in hi-sec is either unconnected with 0.0 alliances or inherently unwilling to deal with them. Has it occurred to you that 0.0 alliances themselves contain people who would like to conduct industry in sov space but are effectively unable to because industry in 0.0 is massively uncompetitive compared to empire?

Do you remember The Mittani's comment that all the industrial capacity in Deklein isn't even enough to supply the CFC's ammunition requirement? Never mind ships, modules, capitals, they're not even physically able to make all their own ammunition.

It's not a question of "rewarding" 0.0. It's a question of bringing 0.0 to be even remotely competitive. It's a question of improving player created outposts to be able to support even the low population 0.0 has now, never mind the increased population it would have if all the hi-sec alts of 0.0 players were "repatriated" into null to build Maelstroms and Large Shield Extender IIs and so on there.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#17 - 2012-05-08 11:19:21 UTC
hey where do you think the raw materials needed for T2 production come from

hint it's not hisec

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#18 - 2012-05-16 12:46:07 UTC
Andski wrote:
hey where do you think the raw materials needed for T2 production come from

hint it's not hisec



And where are the production lines?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#19 - 2012-05-16 19:54:05 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Do you CSM guys think it's worth to notice/comment on the issue? Are you OK with it?

Have a look at the thread and read what CCP Goonwave has to say and what everybody else has to say:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1200907#post1200907

Just in case you didn't notice, huh.


I can tell you the CSM actively discussed the pros and cons of this with CCP and we did notice a number of posts that players made with feedback when we had those discussions.

So we are working for you guys, I promise.

Issler
Selissa Shadoe
#20 - 2012-05-17 16:56:26 UTC
Issler Dainze wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Do you CSM guys think it's worth to notice/comment on the issue? Are you OK with it?

Have a look at the thread and read what CCP Goonwave has to say and what everybody else has to say:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1200907#post1200907

Just in case you didn't notice, huh.


I can tell you the CSM actively discussed the pros and cons of this with CCP and we did notice a number of posts that players made with feedback when we had those discussions.

So we are working for you guys, I promise.


Shocked

So how many of the CSM was against it? Did CCP just say 'well F U'?

"Whether suicide ganking or doing anything in eve, there are exorbitant amounts of people in the game and on the forums that are complete jerks." - Spikeflach
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