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Fleet Bonuses - fail

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Arcot Ramathorne
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2011-09-30 10:22:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Arcot Ramathorne
So I had a petition on why my char who sits in a command ship at either FC, or WC will not pass bonuses to my other char sitting at WC or SC below the command ship.

I figured it was some sort of bug, however as the dev explained it in my petition, chars in fleet leadership positions will NOT inherit warfare link bonuses from commanders above them.

This made absolutely no sense to me, and in the petition the dev claimed he was suprised as well.

The exact quote from the blog notes were:

""Commanders can only give gang bonuses and receive their own bonuses but can not receive bonuses from other commanders or normal members. A normal Squad Member however, can receive bonuses from three possible parties: his Squad Commander, his Wing Commander or the daddy Fleet Commander himself.""

Can someone explain why WC and SC positions do NOT inherit the warfare link bonuses from FC/WC above them? why are chars who take up these leadership roles in fleet penalized while regular squad members are not?

I fail to see any sort of logic behind this at all.

Just so im being clear

FC - char 1 - command ship running warfare links (gets own bonuses)
WC - char2 - does not receive bonuses from links on char 1 ship
SC - char 3 - also does not receive bonuses from links on char 1 ship
Squad member - char 4 - will receive bonuses from links on char 1 ship

moving char 2 or 3 to a regular squad member position does indeed allow them to get bonuses, and subsequently moving char 4 to SC or WC prevents bonuses from passing to char 4

This has me baffled, and I would like to be less baffled. thanks!
Kossaw
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
#2 - 2011-10-01 09:55:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Kossaw
That sounds like a bug. Escalate the petition and Bug Report it - include the GM's response in the bug report. (Bug reports and petitions go through different processing systems and CCP are not good at sorting bugs from petitions)

Your example implies that if you move WC and SC to squad positions they now get bonuses even though the WC and SC positions are now empty - did I read that right ?

In theory, WC and SC positions MUST be filled to transfer the FC bonus down to Squad Members - otherwise we would just create Fleets with empty WC and SC positions - WC and SC not getting bonuses is screwey. What happens if you set the fleet booster to be someone in a WC or SC position?

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Gang

Quote:
Leadership Bonuses are distributed among individual squads through squad commanders, wing commanders, and fleet commanders when pilots are in the same solar system as the squad, wing, or fleet commanders. Pilots will not receive bonuses if they are in different solar systems than squads with fleet bonuses.

Fleet bonuses do not stack and are not cumulative. In all circumstances, the fleet commander, wing commander, or squad commander with the highest bonus amount will be applied to the fleet members under them.

A Fleet Commander will grant his leadership bonuses to all members in the fleet, including himself.
A Wing Commander will grant his leadership bonuses to all members of his wing, including himself.
A Squadron Commander will grant his leadership bonuses to all members of his squadron, including himself.


The key bit here is that, according to the wiki, Fleet Commanders should give bonuses to ALL subordinates

WTB : An image in my signature
Destructor1792
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2011-10-01 11:49:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Destructor1792
This is the heir-achy structure (Lowest to highest):

Squad members receive highest fleet bonus from either SC / WC/ FC

SC receives highest bonus from either themselves or WC / FC

WC receives highest bonus from either themselves or FC

FC gets the short end of the straw

NOTE: Fleet Bonuses DO NOT stack - you will only ever get the highest one depending on FC/WC/SC skill & ship (if running links)

For Squad members to receive the bonus from SC, SC must have the Leadership skill trained (+2 members per squad per level)

For WC bonus, WC skill must be trained to appropriate level (1 for one squad, 5 for 5 squads), SC must be filled by someone with relevant skills & Squad have members (not more than SC skill allows)

For FC bonus to filter to WC, same thing ( lvl1 FC = 1 wing, lvl 5 = 5 wings)

Example:

    2 man fleet & bonuses:
  1. 1 squad member & 1 squad commander = correct (fleet booster will work)
  2. 1 Squad commander & 1 wing commander = wrong
  3. 1 Fleet commander & 1 wing commander = wrong
    4. assuming char has correct skills trained

Make sense?

And to really confuse matters, squad boosters can be assigned to other fleet members (i.e. squad member assigned wing booster although not sat in WC position)

All fully Explained:http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Fleet_options

If (after reading all that & checking everything else) you're still not getting bonuses, then yep, sounds like a bug. Though not one I've seen in quite a few years!

Hope that helps.

Not fired a shot in anger since 2011.... Trigger finger is starting to get somewhat itchy.......
Arcot Ramathorne
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2011-10-01 18:27:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Arcot Ramathorne
Destructor1792 wrote:
This is the heir-achy structure (Lowest to highest):

Squad members receive highest fleet bonus from either SC / WC/ FC

SC receives highest bonus from either themselves or WC / FC

WC receives highest bonus from either themselves or FC

FC gets the short end of the straw

NOTE: Fleet Bonuses DO NOT stack - you will only ever get the highest one depending on FC/WC/SC skill & ship (if running links)

For Squad members to receive the bonus from SC, SC must have the Leadership skill trained (+2 members per squad per level)

For WC bonus, WC skill must be trained to appropriate level (1 for one squad, 5 for 5 squads), SC must be filled by someone with relevant skills & Squad have members (not more than SC skill allows)

For FC bonus to filter to WC, same thing ( lvl1 FC = 1 wing, lvl 5 = 5 wings)

Example:

    2 man fleet & bonuses:
  1. 1 squad member & 1 squad commander = correct (fleet booster will work)
  2. 1 Squad commander & 1 wing commander = wrong
  3. 1 Fleet commander & 1 wing commander = wrong
    4. assuming char has correct skills trained

Make sense?

And to really confuse matters, squad boosters can be assigned to other fleet members (i.e. squad member assigned wing booster although not sat in WC position)

All fully Explained:http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Fleet_options

If (after reading all that & checking everything else) you're still not getting bonuses, then yep, sounds like a bug. Though not one I've seen in quite a few years!

Hope that helps.



This is how I THOUGHT it worked, but it has been confirmed that this is NOT the case.

(note all of these examples I am giving assume proper fleet configuration of FC/WC/SC held by chars that have the appropriate FC/WC/LEAD5 skills...sorry if I didn't clear that up earlier)

as it has been explained by the dev in the petition....neither the SQUAD commander, nor the WING commander will receive bonuses from the FLEET commander if said fleet commander is in a command ship running warfare links.

as was explained, people in command positions (FC/WC/SQUAD) will NOT receive bonuses from other chars in COMMAND positions above them.

ie a SC in wing 1 will NOT get bonuses from the wing 1 commander or fleet commander.

and the wing 1 commander will not get bonuses form the fleet commander.

commanders get their own bonuses and nothing more....dev also confirmed the info in the evewiki was incorrect vs how it actually works in game (ie my problem)
Arcot Ramathorne
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2011-10-01 18:44:41 UTC
filled out a bug report today and referenced the open petition, hopefully we'll get some answers and a fix shortly!
GM Karidor
Game Masters
C C P Alliance
#6 - 2011-10-01 19:01:53 UTC
That the commanders are only receiving their own bonuses (or rather the bonus of the respective boosters) is actually how it is intended (to introduce a weak point into the fleet if you happen to know who the commanders are for the enemy fleet). Commanders getting bonuses from the commanders above them would actually be a bug.

It's been explained in a dev blog around the time when the current fleet system was introduced (quite a long time ago).

GM Karidor | Senior Game Master
Arcot Ramathorne
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2011-10-01 21:29:03 UTC
i guess im missing the logic here.

why would squad commanders be penalized by not recieving the exact same bonuses that everyone in their squad is recieving from the command ship in the fleet command (or wing command) position?
Jita Bloodtear
Bloodtear Labs
#8 - 2011-10-02 02:36:03 UTC
Quote:
Gang Boosting Bonuses

Gang bonuses can now only be received from commanders in a gang that has been converted to a fleet, which is quite a change to current gang bonus mechanics. The reason for this change is to make more use of gang command/bonus based characters and to make specialized characters that focus on gangs a more common choice for players.

Commanders can only give gang bonuses and receive their own bonuses but can not receive bonuses from other commanders or normal members. A normal Squad Member how ever can receive bonuses from three possible parties: his Squad Commander, his Wing Commander or the daddy Fleet Commander himself.

This is from the devblog

This isn't correct either. I can tell you right now that all our Squad Commanders are receiving bonuses from the Wing Commander, in direct conflict with the devblog's statements.

Being that all players naturally assume that subordinate ranks in a fleet should receive bonuses from their commanders, this doesn't seem like a logical way to set up the mechanics. Especially being that if you pick off a commander in a fleet it'll break all bonuses for the subordinates anyways.
Kossaw
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
#9 - 2011-10-02 08:56:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Kossaw
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=422562&page=4#111

As stated by CCP TomB, Its a bug and was on the "list of fixes"

Quote:
Commanders can give bonuses, commanders receive the bonuses they give.

They do not get bonuses from other commanders, i.e. Squad Commander does not receive bonuses from the Wing or Fleet Commander.

The ONLY reason for this is a technical issue, it's on our list for fixes.

This is how it is currently on the Test Server (SiSi).

WTB : An image in my signature
Arcot Ramathorne
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2011-10-02 14:55:14 UTC
ok now im even more confused.

first its supposed to work that way...then its a bug...then its working fine for others?

either way, I can assure you that it does NOT work for me, and ive tested it about 50 times since noticing the issue.

note that regular bonuses pass just fine (ie information warfare 5, siege warfare 5, even the 15% shield bonus mindlink, etc etc)

the bonuses that do not pass are the gang warfare links. (for me)

I can actively run 3, none pass the bonus to chars in command positions (and its easy to tell because point range, and shield resists remain the same for command positions with the gang links on on off)
GM Karidor
Game Masters
C C P Alliance
#11 - 2011-10-02 17:11:49 UTC
Kossaw wrote:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=422562&page=4#111

As stated by CCP TomB, Its a bug and was on the "list of fixes"

Quote:
Commanders can give bonuses, commanders receive the bonuses they give.

They do not get bonuses from other commanders, i.e. Squad Commander does not receive bonuses from the Wing or Fleet Commander.

The ONLY reason for this is a technical issue, it's on our list for fixes.

This is how it is currently on the Test Server (SiSi).


To my knowledge, those fixes never made it and as such the situation mentioned in the Dev Blog in still place. Digging a bit further in this regard, it appears that there is some kind of inconsistency in thir regard, namely that squad commanders seem to get bonuses from fleet and wing, while wing commanders have to live with their own boosts only. Again, nothing has been actually touched in this regard yet and as such the mechanic as outlined in the Dev Blog I linked is currently the customer support stance on "current mechanic" (as in "Commanders are not supposed to get any other bonus than their own, only the actual squad members get the best of all 3 commanders if those have the proper skills"), but of course this does not mean that it may not change in the future.

Having said that, if you notice oddities and inconsistencies in regards who is getting the fleet bonuses and who is not, please don't hesitate to file a bug report. Make sure to include the Leadership skill levels, used warfare links and potential Mindlink implants and their positions in the fleet of all pilots involved (commanders and boosters, if those roles were assigned to different pilots) as well as a listing of which pilot got what bonuses, so we can try to look into that further.

GM Karidor | Senior Game Master
Kossaw
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
#12 - 2011-10-02 21:00:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Kossaw
Karidor,

Thanks for your response and the time you've spent looking at this to get to the bottom of whats happening. We appreciate that as a GM, you cant fix bugs and your support position is "its a bug, please bug report it" and that you have a long queue of petitions to deal with.

However, I think it would be much more effective if the support position was "it's a bug. We've created a bug report and added this thread and the results of our investigations to it. Its now in the queue to be looked at soon(tm) by somebody else".

WTB : An image in my signature
Arcot Ramathorne
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2011-10-07 21:33:28 UTC
not really sure if I was supposed to get any sort of feedback on my submitted bug report, but nothing sofar.

anywhoo, to add to the "fun"

bonuses are also not passed to SQUAD or WING commander from a char running a command ship w/ links who is merely assigned the role of wing booster...and has no other command roles (ie is just a squad member)

bonuses do pass to squad members however.
Arcot Ramathorne
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2011-10-10 04:06:03 UTC
clearly something has changed today, as I was able to run the t3/command ship char as wing commander...and pass bonuses to all members within the wing (5 squads) and their commanders without issue.
Arcot Ramathorne
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2011-10-20 17:56:28 UTC
issue returned last night for my two chars (fleet commander position with appropriate skills in t3/commandship) did not pass those warfare link bonuses to my other char at the Wing Commander position.
Romandra
These are not the droids you're looking for
#16 - 2011-11-18 20:31:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Romandra
I don't mean to necro a thread here, but:

I sit in FC and WC positions a lot, since I've got 3 mindlinks and CS V/warfare link link V. Anyway:

Bonus have always worked, to my experience, that the FC bonuses himself and the entire fleet whenever the bonus from the FC is greater than the bonus from the WC and Squad Commanders. The same rules filter down to everyone else in the list.

FC - Vulture
- WC1 - Claymore
- SC1 - leadership V
- SC2 - leadership V
-WC2 - Eos
- SC1 - leadership V
- SC2 - leadership V

In the above list, the entire fleet will receive the shield bonus from the vulture, including the FC - but this will be the only bonus the FC himself receives. Only Wing 1 and the WC of Wing 1 will receive both the vulture and the claymore bonus; Only Wing 2 and the WC in Wing 2 will receive the Vulture and the Eos bonus (but who uses eos anyway, ammirite).

I've noticed more than a few times where peeps ain't getting their proper right bonus, however, and this is almost always resolved by having anyone in a leadership position drop out of said position and then move back into it.

eg: wing 1 is getting my FC bonus but wing 2 isn't? I drop out of FC position and Wing 2 WC also drops out. We both move back and problem solved.


Hope this potentially helps somebody. Regardless, the incredibly contradictory statements from various GMs referenced in this thread just proves that half the people in charge of this game don't even know how it's actually supposed to work, which is pretty sad.
Jita Bloodtear
Bloodtear Labs
#17 - 2011-11-18 20:43:41 UTC
GM Karidor wrote:
That the commanders are only receiving their own bonuses (or rather the bonus of the respective boosters) is actually how it is intended (to introduce a weak point into the fleet if you happen to know who the commanders are for the enemy fleet). Commanders getting bonuses from the commanders above them would actually be a bug.

It's been explained in a dev blog around the time when the current fleet system was introduced (quite a long time ago).

So within the past month you guys have already completely flipflopped on this issue. You stated here that certain boosters in the fleet shouldn't be receiving bonuses because you wanted to introduce tactical situations where eliminating "weak links" in the enemy fleet would hurt them significantly. But this is EXACTLY the reason you gave for nerfing the titan doomsday from being able to hit subcaps. Because it was able to hit these specifically designed weakest links in the enemy fleet. So which is it? If you're going to nerf titan doomsday against subcaps at least give us full fleet bonuses the way we all expect it to be.