These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
123Next page
 

A Suicide Gankers guide to keeping your Hulk off a killmail.

Author
Karn Dulake
Doomheim
#1 - 2012-05-07 18:30:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Karn Dulake
I am a big fan of ganking Hulks in highsec as it acts as a Darwinian filter to weed out the terrible who deserve to be destroyed. Leaving it as a more specialised and experienced based career.


As a successful suicide ganker I’m going to pass on the secrets to maximising your chances of staying alive in a hulk (I don’t gank on this account I have three others that do my dirty work for me). Why would a ganker know how to protect a hulk, easy because I see them all the time and they make the same mistakes every time.

This guide will start off pretty easy and then get more complex. For those of you who see it as simple remember that Miners tend to have the least knowledge about the mechanics of the game.


1. Understand that EVE online is a PvP based game. When players say this they don’t mean that everyone should be fighting all the time and nothing else they mean that anyone can be attacked at any time and no one is exempt from this including you. The term "I wasn't bothering anyone" will only bring you abuse in this game for your lack of awareness of believing that PvP does not apply to you.

2. How many 300 million isk ships would you fly that you would not bother fitting a tank to? Most miners only see ways of increasing there mining yield and forget that this is a PvP based game. Training your shield skills is as important as training yield skills. If you don’t fit tech II or at least Meta 4 shield mods then you will fail when the gankers come calling. You would never see an expensive faction ships with Meta 0 mods and if they did and they died they would be abused for it. This is the reason that people look down on untanked hulks and mining pilots in general as many of them seem to think that PvP does not apply to them so they do not prepare for it.

3. When a ganker arrives in your belt and attacks it is a straight up race between the tank of the hulk failing and the arrival of Concord and nothing else. A lot of Hulks fit shield boosters which are a complete waste of time. A well timed gank will be over before the Hulk pilot even has time to respond. For this reason when you tank a Hulk you only ever buffer tank it and hope that your tank lasts out the attack. If you look at the fits on the Hulkaggeddon kill mail list you will see plenty of shield booster that were never turned on it time. And lots of Hulks dying to a single Destroyer with total damage of between 4000-5000 damage. Always try to fit at least two Tech II Invulnerability fields and some shield extenders. But the main item to fit is a damage control as it will literally double your ships hit points. This will slightly diminish your Yield rate but it can easily save you from a pointless death. Pro Tip Make sure it’s turned on.

4. Stay out of systems with Ice belts as gankers know that there will be a lot of macks in system. They are literally a gankers paradise and are the first places people look. I know all the major ice systems in my area and I visit them regularly and find untanked ships mining away. If you want to mine Ice look for systems farther out and check the map to see what kind of activity there is there. If you Icemine in somewhere like Osmon then you will die sooner rather than later.

More advanced strategies.

There are times when it does not matter how much tank you fit you are going to die. If 300 Arty Tornados suicide ganked the Veldnaught in Amarr it would only exist as a killmail so there are times that you have to change your flight plans to stay alive. Later on ill show you how I conduct a perfect hit and how unprepared you will be to it unless you follow some common sense.

1. My ganking accounts live near major trade Hubs because that’s where the prey items generally live. Many of them mine out local ore that they can take straight to market with the least amount of fuss. 4 jumps are far easier than 20 jumps. Many miners generally moan that they cant find belts that are not mined out and yet they refuse to go farther out as it impacts there yield/time management as an Indy not mining is losing isk etc. This behaviour is fantastic to a ganker as it keeps all the miners in one place and secondly they don’t see this and forget that this is a PvP game and generally come untanked.

Take your Hulks out of the area by a long distance. Look for areas that are not near trading hubs that have nothing going on there. No level 4 missions, systems without 30 belts where you can mine in peace with hardly anyone in local. It will be a drag hauling everything back but if you are trained for a hulk you will probably end up training for a hauler. These systems are everywhere and you never see anyone in them.

If you are twenty jumps out then most gankers will never come through your system as they need to get back to their base when they suicide. They do not want to come 20 jumps make a kill or die trying and then have to fly 20 jumps home again. They are opportunistic and go for the weak and stupid.
I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion.
Karn Dulake
Doomheim
#2 - 2012-05-07 18:30:37 UTC
2. Getting Concord protection in the belt you are in. Some people think that this is an exploit. It is not. The only people who think that this is an exploit are the gankers and this is an extremely good way of removing fail gankers from this profession. Fly to the belt that you want to mine from and have an alt account in a newb ship fly to you and attack. Concord will destroy the ship and stay in the belt with you. This means that anyone who wants to attack you will only get of one shot before they die. It is easy to counter as a ganker just has to do the same somewhere else in system and your protection will leave. If you are a system without many players then you are being marked for destruction and its time to leave. If you are in a major mining hub then it might just be another Miner moving protection onto themselves which is another reason to never mine in a heavily population area. Concord protection will not save you if you are badly tanked or a large fleet of artie thrashers arrive so do not let down your guard just see it as an early warning system if it disappears and protection again Gallente destroyers who do low alpha but high DPS.



Extremely important Advice.

4. When a ganker comes into a system they will normally scan from the gate or warp to the sun and scan to see who is on AU grid. On board scanners have a range of 14AU which means that anything outside that range will not be picked up. Look for belts that are farther than 14AU from the sun or any of the gates into the system. This will normally give you some breathing space and in the main will see you clear of any problems as most gankers are trying to cover as many systems as they can in the shortest time possible.

From an outlying belt you can D-Scan for ships in the area. If anything appears on grid and you are 14AU from the sun or gates/ or a straight line between gates then they may be looking for you. If it’s a destroyer/tier 3 battleship then its time to move. If you can see them then they can see you.

Do not mass warp to station as if there are gankers there then you are dead. Most of the destroyed trade ships in Jita are killed coming in to the station not leaving. Have a safe spot that your fleet commander can warp everyone to instantly (this helps if you are multiboxing). Try to have it further out in the system not closer in as otherwise this will help D-Scanners identify you. Once you are in a safe spot use your D-scan to look for Combat probes. If they appear then you have been made and the game is off. Give it a few minutes and hold your nerve while they scan for you then jump to a second safe spot which will throw off there reading and generally annoy them. At this point check the system for players if there are not many then you could jump to a lesser station i.e. a Minmatar station if you are in Caldari space and hope that the gankers will assume that you will come to your base station. If there is a ganker on station when you arrive this is when your tank will be tested. When you arrive don’t think twice about spamming the dock button.


Generally Scanning will not happen as it needs a specialised ship and it generally goes against the grain of what gankers do, but it can sometimes happen.


Mining on Grav sites and Missions. You can mine in these as there is good Ore to be had, but plenty of hulks are destroyed this way for the following reasons. Miners automatically think that they are safe in Grav sites and will mine in danger areas and not check their D-Scan nor will they check for Combat probes. Worse still they can be scanned down with normal probes as people are looking for the site and not the person. Other Hulks may come into Site and suddenly all of the prey items are together.

You can mine in a mission but this also has other problems apart from the ones inherent to Grav sites. Mission sites are normally in well populated areas that already have ninja salvagers/looters in system. As there tends to be a lot of people in these systems you may ignore combat probes or have no idea who is there. Once you have cleared the site you will need to go to the next one which may be in another system. These are all points of vulnerability and many highsec PvPers hang around in local looking for the next wardec and a bunch of miners are very high on the list.



How I conduct my hits.

There are a number of ways to do it but these are the ways that I do it so please pay attention if you are a miner.


I use 3 accounts for ganking and I switch from an Artie thrasher for high Alpha if it’s a very high sec system where time is important to the Catalyst if it’s a lower sec system and I can max DPS with more time to spend.

I normally get into an unassuming ship and fly to systems I know. My overview is filtered for nothing but the mining ships I’m looking for. I hit Max D-scan then fly to the sun and do the same again. Then ill look for outlaying roid belts and fly to them. If I find a hulk/mining barge I will insta lock it with mods that do not allow the hulk to notice and take a look at the Hulks tank. Then I will warp out straight away. If the hulk does not have a tank or a silly tank then ill generally assume (rightly) that they are AFK. Ill then bring in as many destroyers as I need from the next system and warp straight into the belt and close down the distance. Ill already have my guns overloaded and they die straight away. Ill warp in another destroyer that will salvage the Hulks wreck and collect all the undestroyed mods from the hulk and the wrecked destroyers. The entire process takes a few minutes tops. A lot of times the other hulks in system or even in the same belt do not even notice so I continue until there is nothing left. Hulk savage can be very profitable if you get the right drops.

I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion.
Karn Dulake
Doomheim
#3 - 2012-05-07 18:31:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Karn Dulake
I always keep a record of who I have killed and go out looking for them again. If I find them in exactly the same place with exactly the same tank then they deserve to die for being so stupid and learning nothing from the game.


The last gank type is for people are wary but still acting stupid and I want to make no mistakes. I fly into a system in a neutral cloaky scanning ship and look for hulks. If I see one I will fly towards it cloaked up and try to get within 2500 metres of it. I will then jump the other destroyers into the system and warp them towards the cloaky. I will then fly the cloaky away somewhere so its cover is not broken and the destroyers land on top of the hulk. From the moment the destroyers are in warp the hulk is already dead.


Summery.

There is a real reason that many Players in this game hate Miners and I have already mentioned many of them. Their failure to acknowledge this game as a PvP arena and moaning when they lose their ship. Taking a 300 million Tech II ship into a PvP arena with no tank. And generally thinking that the rules of PvP should not apply to them as they are not engaging in it.

Destroying Hulks should continue for a long as possible because every time I bad miner quits and does something else in Eve the quality of miners goes up and so does the way that people see miners. So do not moan in the forums that Hulks should be buffed or ganking should be eliminated. Instead see mining as an interactive sport where you are constantly staying one step ahead of the gankers as the less skilled amongst you are pruned from the tree pushing up you expanding profits.




Thanks for reading and your views are welcome
I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#4 - 2012-05-07 18:44:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Karn Dulake wrote:
Do not mass warp to station as if there are gankers there then you are dead. Most of the destroyed trade ships in Jita are killed coming in to the station not leaving.
As a more general tip, one of the best bookmarks you can ever have is one that sits pretty much right inside the station(s) you dock up at the most. Sure, if it's too close, you might bump off (which doesn't matter, as we shall see) and if that worries you, back off a bit and just place it (well) within zero range. Depending the the station, this may be as much as 40km closer to the station than if you warped to zero on it.

…now, whenever you intend to dock at that station, set it as your destination, manually warp to your well-below-zero bookmark, and activate the autopilot while in warp. The instant you come out of warp, you will be a long way away from the normal warp-in spot so any ganker lying in wait might not even be in range to shoot you; you will have zero chance of having to slow-boat it that last bit, because you are already within docking range; and above all, you will pretty much seamlessly transition from warp-invulnerability to docking invulnerability because the autopilot will trigger the instant you are fully out of warp and dock you automatically (this is why bumping off the station doesn't matter — you are already docking when that happens, so the process will go through regardless).



For extra fun, create one of these insta-dock bookmarks right on the undocking ramp of some heavily trafficked station and warp to it. With a bit of luck, you'll massively bump someone who just undocked, ruining their align and triggering the gank reflexes of anyone watching (so they go red in local and you can now add them to your list of known suspects). Or maybe there will just be a lot of swearing in local, and that's fun too… P
Karn Dulake
Doomheim
#5 - 2012-05-07 18:47:26 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Karn Dulake wrote:
Do not mass warp to station as if there are gankers there then you are dead. Most of the destroyed trade ships in Jita are killed coming in to the station not leaving.
As a more general tip, one of the best bookmarks you can ever have is one that sits pretty much right inside the station(s) you dock up at the most. Sure, if it's too close, you might bump off (which doesn't matter, as we shall see) and if that worries you, back off a bit and just place it (well) within zero range. Depending the the station, this may be as much as 40km closer to the station than if you warped to zero on it.

…now, whenever you intend to dock at that station, set it as your destination, manually warp to your well-below-zero bookmark, and activate the autopilot while in warp. The instant you come out of warp, you will be a long way away from the normal warp-in spot so any ganker lying in wait might not even be in range to shoot you; you will have zero chance of having to slow-boat it that last bit, because you are already within docking range; and above all, you will pretty much seamlessly transition from warp-invulnerability to docking invulnerability because the autopilot will trigger the instant you are fully out of warp and dock you automatically.



For extra fun, create one of these insta-dock bookmarks right on the undocking ramp of some heavily trafficked station and warp to it. With a bit of luck, you'll massively bump someone who just undocked, ruining their align and triggering the gank reflexes of anyone watching (so they go red in local and you can now add them to your list of known suspects). Or maybe there will just be a lot of swearing in local, and that's fun too… P


Thanks Tippia nice work in remembering to use book marks as well
I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion.
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#6 - 2012-05-07 18:50:46 UTC
Thank you Karn for the wonderful read.


Too bad the majority don't read the forums. They could benefit a little from this.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#7 - 2012-05-07 18:52:55 UTC
[Hulk, Tanky]
Damage Control II
Mining Laser Upgrade II

Small Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II
Survey Scanner II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


[Hulk, Supertank]
Damage Control II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II

Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


[Mackinaw, Even I can Tank!]
Damage Control II
Co-Processor II

Small Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Survey Scanner II
Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II

Ice Harvester II
Ice Harvester II

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I

Saia Tae Arragosa
Doomheim
#8 - 2012-05-07 18:54:33 UTC
Corina Jarr wrote:
Thank you Karn for the wonderful read.


Too bad the majority don't read the forums. They could benefit a little from this.


Maybe if CCP had a decent mining tutorial that involved teaching new miners defense tactics we all wouldn't be sitting here having this convo.
Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
#9 - 2012-05-07 18:57:54 UTC
I finally caved in and just bought a Covetor instead of constantly stressing out over this. The yield sucks, but mining is less annoying now.

I've never been ganked while mining, and never lost a Hulk in any way, but the stupid things are worth too much to lose one for any reason.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I like to mine to relax after work. I'm not doing so afk though, but I putter around with PI, browse the market and occasionally read this forum while doing so. Having to be super vigilant on the scanner and stuff tends to destroy the peace of just mining.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#10 - 2012-05-07 18:59:10 UTC
Saia Tae Arragosa wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
Thank you Karn for the wonderful read.


Too bad the majority don't read the forums. They could benefit a little from this.


Maybe if CCP had a decent mining tutorial that involved teaching new miners defense tactics we all wouldn't be sitting here having this convo.

Wow. Blame CCP for miners being bad at their game. Next you'll blame your keyboards.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Andoria Thara
Fallen Avatars
#11 - 2012-05-07 19:05:55 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

[Hulk, Supertank]
Damage Control II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II

Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


Saw one just like this on the KB, along with a long list of comments along the lines of "tanking won't help, don't even bother"
Angi Tulo
Raised By Wolves Inc
#12 - 2012-05-07 19:10:06 UTC
MIght also want to consider aligning to your destination.

As soon as you notice someone warp in, its time to warp out.

Also, do not sit on the belt beacon. That is exactly where the ganker will land

DO NOT get caught amongst the rocks. You will be bopping and weaving at 3km at the most. Use the range of your mining turrets.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#13 - 2012-05-07 19:10:46 UTC
Andoria Thara wrote:


Saw one just like this on the KB, along with a long list of comments along the lines of "tanking won't help, don't even bother"


Supertank hulks only die in hulkageddon and when the pilot gets mouthy. When faced with the day to day gank for profit destroyers it might as well be an abaddon, they won't touch it.
Shukuzen Kiraa
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2012-05-07 19:12:56 UTC
Why do people assume that a Hulk pilot can avoid being ganked if he is paying attention? If a Catalyst warps in on you, you are not warping away before he opens fire. Sure you can spend a little extra tanking your hulk... but at most it will take a whole 2 Catalysts to kill you're overly expensive mining ship.

Paying attention doesn't save you when your ship has no tank even when tanked. Hulk needs a buff or actually miners in general need MORE MINING SHIPS. And no, not that damn ORE frigate they have planned...what a waste of development time that is. Miners need more ships to train for beyond the weak hulk. I was a miner when I started eve a few years ago...2 months into the game I was in a Hulk, then what? Orca? Rorqual? Those are not for mining.

For a game that is PVP oriented, why the hell would you make the ships that gather the resources to build everything such a lack of variety and make them weak on top of that. It's a little disappointing. A massive Industrial expansion is needed and very much overdue imo. Don't get me wrong...I still love this game, but this has needed some attention for quite a while now. I would rather have more ships beyond the hulk to train for that can be tougher to gank, rather than buffing what is currently available now. Just my opinion...
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-05-07 19:15:34 UTC
Biomass your character and ask CCP to completely invalidate the mining profession, since no one obviously likes them nor will the guys shooting them..who both walk on two feet and spank off with either hand so both being human for the ganker and hulk pilots....will not let the hulk get its due. To bad CCP can't un-nerf the titan tracking, so you know, sub cap fleet pilots learn that they need to fit tank like a hulk fly something other then a sub cap ship when they are facing a titan fleet (<-- same reasoning and logic; the more you spout the hulk needs to fit tank the better the case CCP needs to un-nerf titan tracking, everyone will adapt or die except they all whined since they couldn't...yet you spout the hulk pilot should adapt? Sounds like hypocritatic, say one thing but do something else since what you say doesn't apply to you by your own exemption).

Quote:
I finally caved in and just bought a Covetor instead of constantly stressing out over this.

Just for the record, cancel your account and its far easier. The covetor is just as ******* bad as the hulk, but the covetor is a ******* glass cannon for rocks, think shield brutix or shield vindicator. Let me explain

High: Three stripminers
Mid: 1 single slot
Low: 2 slots
Shield: 781
Armor: 1250 (<-- what is this we don't know...go from shield hulk to armor?)
Structure: 1875

Now, even though my EFT is going wack since I am having computer problems after upgrading some parts but find the HD is kaput and will fix it in a few days, I know that even being way cheaper then the hulk...that with the inability to fit shield tank and only two lows for a DCU/Bulkhead...it will die very easy. A fast locking destroyer, will still get you good since the covetor can't get enough effective hitpoints. Yeah, its only a fraction of a hulk but it still explodes far to easy.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#16 - 2012-05-07 19:16:37 UTC
Shukuzen Kiraa wrote:
Why do people assume that a Hulk pilot can avoid being ganked if he is paying attention? If a Catalyst warps in on you, you are not warping away before he opens fire.
Since you warp away instantly if aligned…

Quote:
Sure you can spend a little extra tanking your hulk... but at most it will take a whole 2 Catalysts to kill you're overly expensive mining ship.
What are the CONCORD response times for the various sec levels again?

Quote:
For a game that is PVP oriented, why the hell would you make the ships that gather the resources to build everything such a lack of variety and make them weak on top of that.
Because resource collection units are traditionally very weak and need a lot of protecting from other units.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#17 - 2012-05-07 19:17:05 UTC
Shukuzen Kiraa wrote:
Why do people assume that a Hulk pilot can avoid being ganked if he is paying attention? If a Catalyst warps in on you, you are not warping away before he opens fire. Sure you can spend a little extra tanking your hulk... but at most it will take a whole 2 Catalysts to kill you're overly expensive mining ship.

Paying attention doesn't save you when your ship has no tank even when tanked. Hulk needs a buff or actually miners in general need MORE MINING SHIPS. And no, not that damn ORE frigate they have planned...what a waste of development time that is. Miners need more ships to train for beyond the weak hulk. I was a miner when I started eve a few years ago...2 months into the game I was in a Hulk, then what? Orca? Rorqual? Those are not for mining.

For a game that is PVP oriented, why the hell would you make the ships that gather the resources to build everything such a lack of variety and make them weak on top of that. It's a little disappointing. A massive Industrial expansion is needed and very much overdue imo. Don't get me wrong...I still love this game, but this has needed some attention for quite a while now. I would rather have more ships beyond the hulk to train for that can be tougher to gank, rather than buffing what is currently available now. Just my opinion...


The supertank hulk will take the impact from a T2 max alpha Maelstrom and just keep on smiling. They can tank just fine.
Aiwha
Infinite Point
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#18 - 2012-05-07 19:17:10 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
Saia Tae Arragosa wrote:
Corina Jarr wrote:
Thank you Karn for the wonderful read.


Too bad the majority don't read the forums. They could benefit a little from this.


Maybe if CCP had a decent mining tutorial that involved teaching new miners defense tactics we all wouldn't be sitting here having this convo.

Wow. Blame CCP for miners being bad at their game. Next you'll blame your keyboards.



CCP has tutorials for everything else. Why not a quick "how not to die" course?

Sanity is fun leaving the body.

AureoBroker
Perkone
Caldari State
#19 - 2012-05-07 19:20:22 UTC
i do not understand two categories:
Failing PVPers (because seriously, how serious can you be at suicide ganking?) giving failed advice in economics;
Risk adverse miners actually following it.
Moving ore, proven you can refine it (or can get someone to refine it for you) is pretty easy - so yes, being near a hub is terrible.

Now, for basic math - The cost of not fitting 2x MLU, proven orca support and hauling, is ~20% yield - that is, roughly, 500 m3/minute, or 30k m3/h. This, at the current prices for Veldspar(+5%) means roughly 6m/h.
This can repay an hulk in 50 hours. Will tanking more avoid a gank every 50 hours? Unlikely.
For further math: a Covetor loses the same yield over a Hulk. a Covetor loss is eight times less significant than a hulk loss: proven you get ganked more often than one time in 50h, unless a tank will scoff off seven ganks out of seven (which is unlikely) a Covetor is a far better option than a MLUless Hulk.

TL;DR
at 1 gank/50h, a Covetor / tanked hulk is better than a MLU'd hulk.
At a 7/8 survival rate due to the tank, a tanked hulk is better than a covetor.

Evidence suggests than even in busy systems (such as Scheenins, were i mined myself in the day) 1 gank/50h is unlikely.
Stop being risk-averse and MLU that hulk.
Karn Dulake
Doomheim
#20 - 2012-05-07 19:22:04 UTC
The entire point of the tank is that you use it in combination with the other strategies on offer in the main post. You cant just tank your ship and start mining veld in Amarr during Hulkaggeddon. Its just an extra edge
I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion.
123Next page