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Cloaking Triggers Exploration Despawn
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Tiberius Rhavinia
Politas Ateles Syndicate
#1 - 2012-04-19 04:53:18 UTC
Maybe this is old news, but as a returning player who didn't see this in any of the catching up, I just wanted to say that cloaking in complexes now triggers a despawn as if you had warped out.

I personally hate this, as it makes exploration in certain areas even riskier than it was before. Further, it means that no one else can come in and ninja it out from under a safety-cloaked explorer. Then also it makes setting up ambushes that much more difficult within radar sites.

However, as an ISD char in the help channel confirmed it was Working As Intended, I figured I'd share here in the off-chance someone else still didn't know about the change.
St Mio
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2012-04-19 05:28:39 UTC
Yeah, the problem was some players were intentionally cloaking in sites to prevent them from despawning and new ones from respawning, so you can thank them for this workaround :D
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-04-19 06:19:20 UTC
Hmm, i should check if the same applies to WH mag/rad sites now...
Guess it prob does.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Bernie Nator
Seal Club Six
Plug N Play
#4 - 2012-04-19 06:52:38 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Hmm, i should check if the same applies to WH mag/rad sites now...
Guess it prob does.

At last check, cloaking in a radar/mag in a hole wont despawn after a period of time. Checked it about two months ago.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-04-19 07:51:10 UTC
I know it never used to

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Tiberius Rhavinia
Politas Ateles Syndicate
#6 - 2012-04-19 08:47:04 UTC
St Mio wrote:
Yeah, the problem was some players were intentionally cloaking in sites to prevent them from despawning and new ones from respawning, so you can thank them for this workaround :D


Hearing that, I suppose I understand it a bit more, however I suppose I'm still opinionated and feel that it should be a longer timeline than around 30 seconds. Extending it to, say, 5 minutes would allow for hiding from roving gangs while not keeping it alive for too long.
Tsai Ashitaka
Caidin Global Academy
#7 - 2012-04-19 08:56:32 UTC
Bernie Nator wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
Hmm, i should check if the same applies to WH mag/rad sites now...
Guess it prob does.

At last check, cloaking in a radar/mag in a hole wont despawn after a period of time. Checked it about two months ago.


It does now. Anyone cloaked in a site is treated as if they left the grid.

However, there exists a bug/problem in that the site despawning will decloak your ship if it's too close. (If you slowboat 50 or so clicks away you'll be fine when the site disappears).

I'm in full support of cloaked characters not counting as characters on-grid, because it allows us hunters to remain unseen...
GreenCaleria
The Ahool Guard
#8 - 2012-04-19 08:57:07 UTC  |  Edited by: GreenCaleria
Tiberius Rhavinia wrote:
St Mio wrote:
Yeah, the problem was some players were intentionally cloaking in sites to prevent them from despawning and new ones from respawning, so you can thank them for this workaround :D


Hearing that, I suppose I understand it a bit more, however I suppose I'm still opinionated and feel that it should be a longer timeline than around 30 seconds. Extending it to, say, 5 minutes would allow for hiding from roving gangs while not keeping it alive for too long.


This.

I think it should have some sort of timer. Doing a radar (or any) site in low-sec in your precious T3 when a gang jumps in. Ofcourse you want to cloak up and wait for the gang to move, even if just for just a few minutes. On the other hand if you are locked by any rats in the sites you can't cloack up anyway.
But I vote for a 5-10 minute timer on it.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#9 - 2012-04-19 12:21:35 UTC
YES.

Actually they can de-spawn within 60 seconds sometimes.

I was in Sansha Vigil or Lookout (the one with Hemorphite) about 4 or 5 months ago right after the change.

After eliminating the rats, I cloaked up while activating my Hulk and Orca driver accounts. While doing that, my cloaked character's screen 'changed' out of the corner of my eye. Sure enough, the structures and particle effects were gone, and I was hanging in raw space.

It was hardly even 60 seconds. That surprised me more than the vanishing as I read they were going to despawn when EMPTY...after 5 MINUTES.

I never filed a petition about the overly rapid de-spawn. I'm sure it was 'working as intended'.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#10 - 2012-04-19 12:25:38 UTC
Tiberius Rhavinia wrote:
St Mio wrote:
Yeah, the problem was some players were intentionally cloaking in sites to prevent them from despawning and new ones from respawning, so you can thank them for this workaround :D


Hearing that, I suppose I understand it a bit more, however I suppose I'm still opinionated and feel that it should be a longer timeline than around 30 seconds. Extending it to, say, 5 minutes would allow for hiding from roving gangs while not keeping it alive for too long.


Yup, as per above, mine was around 60 seconds. The dev blog (sometime in autumn 2011...good luck finding it...I can't of course) did say 5 minutes.

I just don't cloak up anymore in combat DED sites. Better than dealing with the Petition System.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Trading Unknown
Doomheim
#11 - 2012-04-20 00:20:47 UTC
Does warping to a site while cloaked trigger the despawn (versus cloaking up after warping there)?

It seems silly to despawn an entire site from people poking in with Cov Ops to just see what's there.
Tiberius Rhavinia
Politas Ateles Syndicate
#12 - 2012-04-20 00:24:35 UTC
Trading Unknown wrote:
Does warping to a site while cloaked trigger the despawn (versus cloaking up after warping there)?

It seems silly to despawn an entire site from people poking in with Cov Ops to just see what's there.


No, normal despawn mechanics apply in all situations. IE: a site only despawns after its containers have been tampered with. So, just as you can warp to a sig, clear it of hostiles, warp out, and return with a salvage/codebreaker/analyzer ship, so too can you warp to and from the site cloaked. You cannot however crack open a can and then cloak without the entire site dissolving about you.
Mnemosyne Gloob
#13 - 2012-04-20 10:32:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Mnemosyne Gloob
Trading Unknown wrote:
Does warping to a site while cloaked trigger the despawn (versus cloaking up after warping there)?

It seems silly to despawn an entire site from people poking in with Cov Ops to just see what's there.


No, but interestingly in a couple of sites (i know for instance certain combat ladars) you will only see a 'default layout' when warping there cloaked - like one can and no rats iirc - now if you decloak additional cans might spawn and the rats, too. It's like the 'randomness' (as amount of cans and some rats are random) only kicks in when you decloak.

It wasn't like this before they changed the mechanics of cloaked ships inside sites.

[edit]
Tiberius Rhavinia wrote:
You cannot however crack open a can and then cloak without the entire site dissolving about you.

Even just attempting to hack/analyze/salvage will trigger as far as i know.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#14 - 2012-04-20 11:20:14 UTC
Trading Unknown wrote:
Does warping to a site while cloaked trigger the despawn (versus cloaking up after warping there)?

It seems silly to despawn an entire site from people poking in with Cov Ops to just see what's there.


Any time AFTER all the initial rats are killed. OR the loot taken from Magneto and Radar sites. Then the timer starts.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#15 - 2012-05-05 20:11:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Markus Reese
Copied from a post I made in the general discussion, forgot to check this section

Markus Reese wrote:
Myself, I have done most parts of eve. Pvp, mining, you name it, for the most part I like and dislike bits of everything. My favorite though is a little carebear, and a little not. It is however what got me into low and nullsec to start. Running the sites with teams new to lowsec have gone on to null and pvp as well. Exploration sites. Specifically the survey sites. I started running t1 ships. Would run in a scanner, then a utility ships. No alts, straight up solo. Enjoyment of PvE, but excitement as dodge or break way from pvp. I have done it for a couple years now.

At this point, I run around with a quite expensive fit proteus through null space. Is great fun since am limited by the ship with having to fit the data access equipment (codebreaker, salvager, analyser) and now at T3, the subsystems. Ship is expensive and the fit some will say is cheap, of course covert and int null, but that is the fun, and had numerous close calls. Still running solo.

Alright, now people have their ons and offs about cloaks which will be mentioned, please take them to cloaker thread since none of this is afk cloak.

The old problem would be if a site was almost emptied except for junk which even I don't take. So if you left the site after accessing a canister, it would despawn. If in the site, it wouldn't. I can see this being abused with an afk cloaker left on grid to mess up. Finding cloakers on grid is another topic. But anyways, been doing it along time, for years, when I had to cloak up from a probing gang that started searching. I had accessed one canister, np cloak up in site. About a minute later, site gone, poof and a decloak. I though right, bug and was in here when it's despawn timer from creation was out. Filed little bug report, working as intended reply. Note, did not warp out.

Well, wasn't exploring for a bit, and went back out the other day here. 3 times this has now happened, site despawns if you access anything and cloak. It takes time to find the sites, and without a combat spec ship, time to secure then (and sp investment). Lastly also requiresalot of player involvement to run. But is "working as intended" Now I understand the issue about afk holders would cause issues, and needing to despawn once all containers accessed to prevent being held open. But despawning while active players are running, well it has really pulled out the ability to really earn isk in these. The time taken in systems really means people have to legitimately use the cloak if pvp scanners show up, no way around it


Alright, as said in there, pretty much figured out the reason why it was needed before hand, but if I gotta cloak, even for a moment, that is it, end of site. Just not any freaking fun to do and it has been what I loved doing in eve the most!

This also makes it impossible to clear the sites that have npcs spawn after access, that one I was having problems with too.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#16 - 2012-05-06 13:49:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
Markus Reese wrote:
Alright, as said in there, pretty much figured out the reason why it was needed before hand, but if I gotta cloak, even for a moment, that is it, end of site. Just not any freaking fun to do and it has been what I loved doing in eve the most!

This also makes it impossible to clear the sites that have npcs spawn after access, that one I was having problems with too.



Yup. The fact that folks were cloaking up in sites in Null so they wouldn't respawn anew was taking too much ISK out of Goon Hands and they didn't like it.

Apparently they are unablle to undock and go after these clowns.

Another game mechanic change for the Goons indeed it 'twas.

Yet another game breaker brought to you by CCP Soundwaffe.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Orlacc
#17 - 2012-05-06 16:34:51 UTC
I am sure it would be easy for them to start a timer when you cloak. Say 5 minutes. That would serve both purposes.

"Measure Twice, Cut Once."
Jack Tronic
borkedLabs
#18 - 2012-05-06 19:19:17 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Markus Reese wrote:
Alright, as said in there, pretty much figured out the reason why it was needed before hand, but if I gotta cloak, even for a moment, that is it, end of site. Just not any freaking fun to do and it has been what I loved doing in eve the most!

This also makes it impossible to clear the sites that have npcs spawn after access, that one I was having problems with too.



Yup. The fact that folks were cloaking up in sites in Null so they wouldn't respawn anew was taking too much ISK out of Goon Hands and they didn't like it.

Apparently they are unablle to undock and go after these clowns.

Another game mechanic change for the Goons indeed it 'twas.

Yet another game breaker brought to you by CCP Soundwaffe.


Yes, let's undock and go after people cloaked somewhere within the 300km grid of a site.
Elkar Dyn
Minmatar Munitions
Electus Matari
#19 - 2012-05-07 21:09:42 UTC
In the old situation, people cloaking up in a finished site could keep it from despawning. This was considered unwanted gameplay because it prevented normal respawn rates and thus lowered fair ISK income for soverein alliances who had invested in improving the system's value.

In the new situation, roving gangs can prevent alert explorers from earning any ISK by just dropping some combat probes, scan, recover them and move on. The explorers keeping a close eye on d-scan have two choices:

  1. Loose the PVE fitted exploration ship(s) to 1 or more PVP ships
  2. Cloak and loose the exploration site.

If the intend of the change was to give null-sec alliances and roaming PVP gangs a strong advantage over nomadic style explorers, the behaviour is, indeed, as intended.
If they would like to encourange nomadic exploration in hostile space, the change is counter productive.

CCP, could you maybe answer what the added gameplay value is in despawning exploration sites withing 60 seconds vs say 6 minutes?
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#20 - 2012-05-08 18:43:57 UTC
The other issue, which fortunately I haven't been interrupted during yet, are the sites that will have spawns as you access containers. I do not know for certain whether or not it is busted, but if I get one container, cloak for whatever reason, then another container creates a spawn, will this mean I am fighting during the timer? Exploration ships aren't known for high dps.

I don't know, but the best way to make it an invisible mechanic is have a nice duration, say 30 minutes, this might seem generous, but a site should never take longer, keep the warp out one normal. It shouldn't interrupt play too much for an attentive sov alliance. The issue with people afk 300km away, that could be settled if ccp does put in some sort of cloak detector. I mean a legitimate one. The best way would be a hot/cold system, Just work it with dscan, cloaker has to be on grid. Attentive cloakers can avoid, non attentive would be in trouble as people get used to it. Once you find heading, full burn. I recommend a new T2 destroyer...

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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