These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

No more learning implants!

Author
Eva Lawson
#21 - 2012-05-04 19:18:06 UTC
Agreed with OP; I want to PvP; I'm aware that this is a PvP-centric game and I don't want to be completely ignorant when it comes to that. But I AM new, and in my race to get just my skills on-par with the weakest nullsec warrior, I've been mission running nonstop to gather up ISK and shovel it back out for +4s, just to take a few hours of my 10d training times. A podding would cost me a month's worth of gametime and an obscene (to me) amount of ISK.

Quote:
When I started playing, my priorities weren't implants. If you really want to benefit new players, how about making the tutorials drop the most basic learning implants for free.


Also, that. That would be the perfect balance and I wouldn't have to worry about carrying a hundred mil worth of hardware in my head just to get some respectable skills. Then I'd be more than happy to take a risk and start practicing some PvP.
Alavaria Fera
Imperial Shipment
#22 - 2012-05-04 19:19:35 UTC
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:
We should also get rid of T2 ships as it makes fewer people want to pvp in them

But the miners would object if you took away their hulks.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Real Poison
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2012-05-04 19:25:16 UTC
Must say attribute enhancing implants are just a turn-off for pvp. And they add absolutely nothing to gameplay.
I'd love to see them go the way of learning skills.

That'd make room for more awesome Hardwirings that add something to gameplay and still gives the risk and the chance for mockery by ppl that blow the pod up.

+1
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2012-05-04 19:27:05 UTC
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
So what about hardwirings? They give significant bonuses to your performace and ISK earning potential, while being just as available and potentially costing even more than attribute implants. Not using them gimps you when competing against people who do use them, meaning pretty much everyone these days. If you just remove learning implants, people are going to stick performance implants in their place at the start, be unwilling to risk them and we will be pretty much back to square one.

This topic has been discussed to death though, if you want to see all the arguments and ideas, just read this thread.

For me there is a big difference in attribute enhancers and hardwirings.

While the need to be competitive is present, cost already extends into other areas like ship fittings and faction/T2/T3 ships. The dynamic of risking more for increased performance is one of the core elements of game play and since hardwirings fit directly into that I don't see an issue. There is also the point that since hardwires provide actual ship performance enhancement they can be purposed for PVP directly, whereas learning implants cannot.

The problem with attribute enhancers in particular is that just replacing them doesn't make up for time spent without them.
Every hour spent with a +3 is worth less SP wise than that same hour with a +4 or +5. And since the effect only becomes more apparent over time we begin to see that cost is only half of the issue, and that the variance in learning is what tends to make attribute enhancers have a greater affect on risk aversion than hardwires.
Indalecia
#25 - 2012-05-04 19:27:52 UTC
Romar Agent wrote:
At least with implants you can sooner or later minimize risk through Jump Clones.


/thread

https://o.smium.org/ — v0.13.5 — A browser-based fitting tool and loadout sharing platform

Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2012-05-04 19:29:43 UTC
Implants don't bug me.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2012-05-04 19:31:18 UTC
Indalecia wrote:
Romar Agent wrote:
At least with implants you can sooner or later minimize risk through Jump Clones.


/thread

Minimizing risk by negating the usefulness of those implants doesn't really address the issue as much as skirt around it. After all, if you're not going to use the training boost, why get it? And why should I have to choose between 24 hours at full training speed and a few hours of PvP?
Nephilius
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#28 - 2012-05-04 20:07:46 UTC
I told you so.

You're welcome.
"If."
Di Mulle
#29 - 2012-05-04 20:10:41 UTC
I'd say removal of the cost of ships and modules will reduce that "fear of PVP" way way more.
<<Insert some waste of screen space here>>
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2012-05-04 20:11:22 UTC  |  Edited by: MotherMoon
well 8 years ok only 10% of the playerbase supported removing learning at all *I was one of them!* but then after a dev mentioned it oce at fanfest off hand in an interview, by the time it happen most people were in agreement that learning skills had to go. THANK GOD. Do you know how many times I was called a dumbass for wanting CCP to remove learning skills? Being told it was dumbing down the game and so on?

Whatever they said keep fighting for it. Implants giving you bonuses to learning skills a bit faster is kinda dumb, and only follows logic that they should be removed as well. Maybe have more extremes possibilities in the attributes again in return for removing the implants?

I mean, hell, why not. Let us go up to 30 and down to 15. Let players have to make a real choice that they can't change for a whole year. How fast do you want to train what. Maybe even give some of those bloodlines some bonuses to base attributes again. I do miss that.

OP, I think you're 100% justified and you've got my support.

Implants for learning make players want to stay out of danger while they finish up that one last huge skill, before they jump clone out to go fight.

Implants that increase comabt stats obviously promote the player to go out and use those implants in combat, they are useless as long as you dock. But learning implants not only take up slots that could be used to increase your damage output or speed *which is dumb* they work even when your offline. So it's like, if you don't have a set of at least +3's you're just wasting your time. That's really bad design.

So there is one more idea. Maybe learning implants should be instead permanent surgical equipment upgrade that applies to the current and all future clones. That way you still get faster as you make more money and train up skills, but you never have to fear about losing those upgrades?

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg

Adria Origin
Yar Har Fiddle Di Dee
#31 - 2012-05-04 20:12:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Adria Origin
Di Mulle wrote:
I'd say removal of the cost of ships and modules will reduce that "fear of PVP" way way more.

SiSi is proof of this.


FYI: My earlier post was not in objection to the removal of implants but rather I was saying that they aren't a big deal. If they were to be removed I would be fine with that, but what happens to the faction sets? (Snakes, Slaves, etc)
Geoscape
Unleashed' Fury
The Initiative.
#32 - 2012-05-04 20:16:44 UTC
"i can't join this op, i'm in my expensive learning clone with 10 hours left on the timer!"

Get rid of learning implants.

MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2012-05-04 20:17:42 UTC
Quote:
For me there is a big difference in attribute enhancers and hardwirings.


EXACTLY

in my opinion the noob missions should drop a bunch of hardwirings, and promote the idea that fitting implants to increase your combat skill should be as common as fitting out your ship. But due to these stupid implants it's not.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg

MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2012-05-04 20:18:11 UTC
Geoscape wrote:
"i can't join this op, i'm in my expensive learning clone with 10 hours left on the timer!"

Get rid of learning implants.



OR cut down on the time it takes to clone jump. like 3 hours instead of 24

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg

Mr LaForge
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#35 - 2012-05-04 20:18:27 UTC
I agree with this proposal but I'm on the fence atm.

Stuff Goes here

Adria Origin
Yar Har Fiddle Di Dee
#36 - 2012-05-04 20:18:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Adria Origin
Geoscape wrote:
"i can't join this op, i'm in my expensive learning clone with 10 hours left on the timer!"

Get rid of learning implants.


Or the timer. I don't really think removing the timer completely is a good idea, but at a minimum CCP needs to drop it to 12 hours.

My suggestion is CCP needs to find out the amount of time the average person plays per day. I mean really plays, not sits afk in a station. I assume it's going to be around 4-6 hours. Whatever that amount of time is, that should be the length of the JC timer. But that is a thread all its own.
Damsel in Distress
The Scope
#37 - 2012-05-04 20:19:17 UTC
Ryshar wrote:
they get really bored saving the damsel and killing Kruul and quit



Oops Sorry
Stetson Eagle
Paird Technology
#38 - 2012-05-04 20:19:21 UTC
Are learning implants necessary? No.
Do they add to the game? The way I see it, no. I want the game to be more about the nullsec sandbox, and learning implants are (although a small and non imperative) intentive to stay in highsec.

Personally I'd like to see the learning implants go. They are an unnecessary level of complexity in a game that's main issue is it's unnecessary levels of complexity.
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2012-05-04 20:25:26 UTC
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
So what about hardwirings? They give significant bonuses to your performace and ISK earning potential, while being just as available and potentially costing even more than attribute implants. Not using them gimps you when competing against people who do use them, meaning pretty much everyone these days. If you just remove learning implants, people are going to stick performance implants in their place at the start, be unwilling to risk them and we will be pretty much back to square one.

This topic has been discussed to death though, if you want to see all the arguments and ideas, just read this thread.


But that's the point. you allways learn skills even when your in stations those learning impants are doing something. If you're willing to buy 40 million in combat implants you've obviously going to risk them. how is this any different than people using expensive fits in spaceships?

The price of combat implants are only justified if you undock. Otherwise why would you buy them in the 1st place if you weren't going to use them? Your not going to sit in your expensive clone for months waiting for a fight you want to get into.

Karn Dulake wrote:
Grudging agree with the OP

When i first started this game i was fearless. I went all over nullsec in a noob ship and did not care what happened. Once i got my +5s i did not leave highsec for 6 months and now i spent most of my time in a clone with no implants.




ouch yeah I've been there

Acheron Cyc wrote:
So, you want to reduce the risk involved for those that do heavy pvp and get podded often, disguised as something of benefit for new players?.

How about no?.

When I started playing, my priorities weren't implants. If you really want to benefit new players, how about making the tutorials drop the most basic learning implants for free.


these people use implants that actually increase combat stats. People would be able to use them 24/7 if there were no learning implants that could take up the same spot. how awesome is that?


Maybe that's the real issue here. learning implants take the same spot as combat implants. That doesn't make much sense if you think about it.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg

Romar Agent
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#40 - 2012-05-04 20:26:02 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Indalecia wrote:
Romar Agent wrote:
At least with implants you can sooner or later minimize risk through Jump Clones.


/thread

Minimizing risk by negating the usefulness of those implants doesn't really address the issue as much as skirt around it. After all, if you're not going to use the training boost, why get it? And why should I have to choose between 24 hours at full training speed and a few hours of PvP?

Agreed the Jump clones-method is more suitable if you spend prolonged periods in changing occupations. Like when you spend a couple of weeks fighting in Low or Null, then go mining (*gaah*) in High, then play on another account for a couple of weeks while the first one is holed up with maxed implants.

It's all about balancing risk/benefit.

Completely personal choice, of course.