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Lets Talk About Inferno’s [Questionable] New Wardec Mechanics

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ASuperVillain
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#141 - 2012-05-04 16:37:18 UTC  |  Edited by: ASuperVillain
Does CCP play a different game than we do? I mean really, talk about inflation problems then cut all the 'extra minerals' and surprise! All minerals go up, and hey look since everything is made of minerals everything else goes up too, oh noes! Inflation!

Jack-asses

But the idea at hand... new War-Dec Mechanic.
Why isn't this a ratio of size vs size?

Keep the equation the same, (starter cost + x per member) but add * 1/(defender/attacker)

so if bigger corps wanna attack smaller corps, it cost more... If little guys want to attack big guys it costs less...

Call it a Grief Multiplier^tm.

Now this leads to needing to lock recruitment for the attacker once a dec is on, so it doesn't become Ballon Decs...

Comments?

-ASV
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#142 - 2012-05-04 16:37:45 UTC
Tl;dr

Short version: entire rant is based upon the notion that 50M isk is a lot of isk.

Let's see: for the price of 1 tier 3 battleship (around 200M for an abaddon nowadays) you can wardec a 300 man corp.

Are you saying that you can't afford 200M isk to war dec a fair sized corp? Or are you saying that CCP is going to break your business model of attacking that large nullsec alliance and then just sitting on a market hub undock?

You realize that if you stop being lazy and actually scout out their routes and staging systems, you can fight them for FREE in low/null sec right? Oh but wait, that means that they technically could fire the first shot. God forbid.
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#143 - 2012-05-04 16:39:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Lyric Lahnder wrote:
Bridged



Alternatively we could just have an awesome waredec system that makes sense, does not support small corp griefing, does not give large alt buffed alliances permanent dec shield protection, and expands PVP to the large weekend warrior-carebear-semi-carebear player base of empire, by allowing mercenaries to become allies free of cost.



Why not just be awesome instead?

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Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#144 - 2012-05-04 16:41:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
ASuperVillain wrote:
Does CCP play a different game than we do? I mean really, talk about inflation problems then cut all the 'extra minerals' and surprise! All minerals go up, and hey look since everything is made of minerals everything else goes up too, oh noes! Inflation!

Jack-asses

But the idea at hand... new War-Dec Mechanic.
Why isn't this a ratio of size vs size?

Keep the equation the same, (starter cost + x per member) but add * 1/(defender/attacker)

so if bigger corps wanna attack smaller corps, it cost more... If little guys want to attack big guys it costs less...

Call it a Grief Multiplier^tm.

Now this leads to needing to lock recruitment for the attacker once a dec is on, so it doesn't become Ballon Decs...

Comments?

-ASV


See, someone came up with a spontaneous improvement over what CCP has (evidentyly) been cooking along side the CSM's for a year. Just off of the top of his head and ****. Amazing.

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Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#145 - 2012-05-04 16:42:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Ptraci wrote:
Tl;dr


Again, **** your mindless null sec PVP, your politics, your life style, **** capital ships, RMT and alarm clock ops. Viva Empire, PVP that requires thinking, and a small tight niche group of players that you actually enjoy hanging around with when you come home from work.

Also, the buff low sec thread is that way ArrowArrowArrow





Clear enough yet?

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Kinis Deren
Mosquito Squadron
D0GS OF WAR
#146 - 2012-05-04 16:54:41 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
ASuperVillain wrote:
Does CCP play a different game than we do? I mean really, talk about inflation problems then cut all the 'extra minerals' and surprise! All minerals go up, and hey look since everything is made of minerals everything else goes up too, oh noes! Inflation!

Jack-asses

But the idea at hand... new War-Dec Mechanic.
Why isn't this a ratio of size vs size?

Keep the equation the same, (starter cost + x per member) but add * 1/(defender/attacker)

so if bigger corps wanna attack smaller corps, it cost more... If little guys want to attack big guys it costs less...

Call it a Grief Multiplier^tm.

Now this leads to needing to lock recruitment for the attacker once a dec is on, so it doesn't become Ballon Decs...

Comments?

-ASV


See, someone came up with a spontaneous improvement over what CCP has (evidentyly) been cooking along side the CSM's for a year. Just off of the top of his head and ****. Amazing.


+1

I support this idea purely for the quest for good fights, which are more likely to come from having similar sized involved parties. I believe something similar has been suggested previously but my forum search fu is weak today.
Twulf
Thunder Clap Industry
Militaires-Sans-Frontieres.
#147 - 2012-05-04 17:02:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Twulf
Ptraci wrote:
Tl;dr

Short version: entire rant is based upon the notion that 50M isk is a lot of isk.

Let's see: for the price of 1 tier 3 battleship (around 200M for an abaddon nowadays) you can wardec a 300 man corp.

Are you saying that you can't afford 200M isk to war dec a fair sized corp? Or are you saying that CCP is going to break your business model of attacking that large nullsec alliance and then just sitting on a market hub undock?

You realize that if you stop being lazy and actually scout out their routes and staging systems, you can fight them for FREE in low/null sec right? Oh but wait, that means that they technically could fire the first shot. God forbid.


Wrong. the entire rant is based upon the notion that the larger the alliance, the more it will cost to war dec which means alts will become even more important then they are now to make your alliance as large as you can so that it will cost more then it is worth to war dec you.

You should just stop posting if you cannot understand the issue we are talking about.


So the issue is that with this new system, the larger your alliance the safer you will be from War Dec's. The smaller your alliance, the more likely you are to get war dec, this is oppsite of what they were trying to fix.
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#148 - 2012-05-04 17:06:27 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Viva Empire, PVP that requires thinking,

...


Clear enough yet?



Thinking? Seriously? I mean, how hard can it be? Yeah ok the first time you set it up it requires thought but after that if you are proud that you figured out how to game the game mechanics then I actually feel sorry for you.

As for a small, tight knit band of friends - well that all depends on which corp and alliance you join. That's not unique to Empire.

But wait a minute - you are the one complaining, not me. You decide to live on the fringe by exploiting weaknesses in the war dec mechanics in empire. Therefore you are entirely at the mercy of CCP. You can't complain if they change the rules any more than I can complain if our tiny alliance gets steam-rolled by the Goons. Adapt, and move on.
Aesheera
Doomheim
#149 - 2012-05-04 17:16:04 UTC
Ptraci wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Viva Empire, PVP that requires thinking,

...


Clear enough yet?



Thinking? Seriously? I mean, how hard can it be? Yeah ok the first time you set it up it requires thought but after that if you are proud that you figured out how to game the game mechanics then I actually feel sorry for you.

As for a small, tight knit band of friends - well that all depends on which corp and alliance you join. That's not unique to Empire.

But wait a minute - you are the one complaining, not me. You decide to live on the fringe by exploiting weaknesses in the war dec mechanics in empire. Therefore you are entirely at the mercy of CCP. You can't complain if they change the rules any more than I can complain if our tiny alliance gets steam-rolled by the Goons. Adapt, and move on.

Dear lord.

Complaining and voicing concerns are two very different things.

Also failing to see the point he brings up about wardec costs made me giggle in sadness a bit.

Is it because he is poor? Don't be so daft, misstress of assumptions.
He made a very strong point and for your ease of reading ill quote him.
Quote:

Result

You have made empire MORE dangerous for the little guy, and you have created an unintentional (near) immunity for establishments that want to buff their numbers with 2 alts (per one account) and 5 alts (per 2 accounts). This is by no means preferable to what we have now Ugh

You have kind of "re-broke" the whole thing IMO.


Understand what he says, read again, let it sink in and then reply.

Until then, your pyramid quoted and wildfire rage posts shall be ignored.

Love you, bye.

- I think my passion is misinterpreted as anger sometimes. And I don't think people are ready for the message that I'm delivering, and delivering with a sense of violent love.
Pinky Feldman
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#150 - 2012-05-04 18:10:46 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:



What people like you, and people on the CSM... and thus CCP, does not understand. Is that many of us ******* hate null sec life, politics, your leadership, and the stupid mindless ******* blob. That is why we are not out there, it has nothing to do with how we choose to PVP.


If null sec was the only aspect of this game I would have no reason to continue playing it.
And I am most def not the only one who shares that opinion.


I don't follow your logic.

How is sitting on a station undock with a dozen friends in pimped out ships with neutral, unattackable logistics and off-grid boosters waiting for one poor fool to undock not "blobbing"?

It is far, far worse, to be completely blunt. It is one-sided, dull, and involves zero risk. Oh no, a bunch of people undocked! Whatever will we... oh right. Dock.

I like how you guys still seem to think that neutral logistics are completely unattackable, when Vegasmirage and friends have already completely broken that tactic and punish people who play station games with it. The fact that one of your lead FC's complained that CCP needs to implement for players to have a war target only overview just shows your complete and utter ignorance. Maybe I should also mention the fact that you guys petitioned THORN alliance shooting your scimitars as being an exploit because you guys don't understand aggression mechanics and aggro transfer.

Clearly, the problem here is the fact that whenever a game mechanic is too complex for you guys to understand, it needs to be changed. The fact that you guys are so confounded by highsec station games shows how ignorant you really are and makes you look bad. Anyone who has any clue about highsec warfare will tell you that simple giving neutral logi an aggression timer will pretty much be the end of the so-called risk free station games. If you want to bring up a bad game mechanic that creates on-sided, dull, and zero risk PVP, what about Titan bridges which even 100 man lowsec scrub alliances have access to nowadays, which allow you to hide not just your logistics and boosters, but your entire fleet an entire region away.


The moar you cry the less you pee
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#151 - 2012-05-04 18:32:44 UTC
Lady Hofstedar wrote:
It will actuall force or push smaller corps to joining alliances to protect them from griefer targets if yah sat down n thought about it :P

You might think this is a good thing because you drank the alliance Kool-Aid, but there are plenty of us who rather enjoy being a part of a small group. If CCP creates a mechanic that punishes anyone who fails to get into an alliance sufficiently large to ward off wardecs, then they would be effectively killing what is currently a valid and fun way to play the game: with people you know and trust.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#152 - 2012-05-04 18:47:57 UTC
Jessie-A Tassik wrote:
Gogela wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Now, normally, I'd say that a corp that is defenceless should be nuked into oblivion simply because they've made the bad choice of setting themselves up for a lose/lose situation — being defenceless means they're not actually ready to have a corp to begin with. However, this change opens up a new avenue for them: they can congregate in a massive decshielding alliance (hell, I'll offer my services just to profit from/break the system again, like I did with decshedding) and that means that the system is inherently broken right out the gate, in pretty much exactly the same way as it was broken before — the kind of breakage the change was intended to fix.

This ^

...and I agree that if they all the "defenseless" corps band together for protection that is fine. That's what they should be doing anyway... though I'd also argue that a defenseless alliance is just as dec-able and will be deced straight away... that's all normal and fine. It's the alt padding that's a problem. The bottom line is you can't have a corp and be defenseless. Anyone who predicated their existence on highsec invulnerability based themselves on a broken mechanic. If there's going to be an actual fix to the dec system reality is going to drop kick you in the sack, and I think there's a few isk to be made on that reality check. I just hope the dec change is actually a fix and not one that allows shielding by a different method. If you want a dec shield it should exist... it's called hiring or aligning with a PvP corp. That should be your only defense... not skirting war altogether.


So a police/military force is now a "broken mechanic".

All human history indicates you are functionally ********.

WTF are you even talking about? Decshielding is a broken mechanic. Relying on NPCs to provide security for a player-run organization is a broken mechanic. You want NPC protection you join an NPC corp and then come back and tell me about your awesome NPC experience. You want to start a player corp you need players to do your security. WTF do you even know about human history and where do you see a parallel fool?

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#153 - 2012-05-04 19:05:29 UTC
Gogela wrote:
WTF are you even talking about? Decshielding is a broken mechanic. Relying on NPCs to provide security for a player-run organization is a broken mechanic. You want NPC protection you join an NPC corp and then come back and tell me about your awesome NPC experience. You want to start a player corp you need players to do your security. WTF do you even know about human history and where do you see a parallel fool?

Love to decshield all the time.

We can call highsec ""decsec". As in "wardec is security"

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
CCP Punkturis
C C P
C C P Alliance
#154 - 2012-05-04 19:15:34 UTC
I didn't read anything except the beginning of the first post here but I just wanted to point out that we're having this discussion on the Test Server forum (because it's on the Test Server) and there we've stated

CCP SoniClover wrote:

War cost change - we've been making changes to this very recently, so it might not be on Sisi yet, but should be soon. As Punkturis said, we'll have more information in a devblog very soon.


Our team made a mistake so there's pretty old version of what we've been working on on Sisi, so can everybody please relax about the cost formula please Smile and keep an eye on Sisi maybe!

♥ EVE Brogrammer ♥ Team Five 0 ♥ @CCP_Punkturis ♥
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#155 - 2012-05-04 19:27:23 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Ptraci wrote:
Tl;dr


Again, **** your mindless null sec PVP, your politics, your life style, **** capital ships, RMT and alarm clock ops. Viva Empire, PVP that requires thinking, and a small tight niche group of players that you actually enjoy hanging around with when you come home from work.


Oh god I just laughed so hard at this. You seriously think that only blobs and alarmclock ops happen in null, and that highsec ganking takes a brain.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#156 - 2012-05-04 19:56:31 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Our team made a mistake so there's pretty old version of what we've been working on on Sisi, so can everybody please relax about the cost formula please Smile and keep an eye on Sisi maybe!


This is going to be a pretty hot topic no matter what you guys. Might I suggest even more community involvement than normal on this? Keep us informed on ideas and changes. There are a lot of people with a lot of great ideas out there, we might be able to help you get it even better than you planned :)

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Lady Zarrina
New Eden Browncoats
#157 - 2012-05-04 20:07:31 UTC
yeah I think there needs to be a cap on the cost of a war-dec. what that max value is? I am not sure.

I also think allowing WD's to be limited by region might be useful. Allow people to war-dec based on system, constellation, region, universe and have cost scale accordingly. I look it as bribing the police to allow you to kill people as you want. Much cheaper to bribe just one small area's police force than to bribe them all, all over the universe.

EVE: All about Flying Frisky and Making Iskie
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#158 - 2012-05-04 20:14:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
CCP Punkturis wrote:
I didn't read anything except the beginning of the first post here but I just wanted to point out that we're having this discussion on the Test Server forum (because it's on the Test Server) and there we've stated

CCP SoniClover wrote:

War cost change - we've been making changes to this very recently, so it might not be on Sisi yet, but should be soon. As Punkturis said, we'll have more information in a devblog very soon.


Our team made a mistake so there's pretty old version of what we've been working on on Sisi, so can everybody please relax about the cost formula please Smile and keep an eye on Sisi maybe!


The issue is not just trim this factor of the formula here, trim that other one there, and then everybody is happy.

The issue is that the new system allows even more griefing than the old one, which is a rare feat of sheer bad will towards people who still dares to NOT PvP in the """sandbox""".

How long will CCP abuse the patience of hiseccers?
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#159 - 2012-05-04 20:22:57 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Our team made a mistake so there's pretty old version of what we've been working on on Sisi, so can everybody please relax about the cost formula please Smile and keep an eye on Sisi maybe!


This is going to be a pretty hot topic no matter what you guys. Might I suggest even more community involvement than normal on this? Keep us informed on ideas and changes. There are a lot of people with a lot of great ideas out there, we might be able to help you get it even better than you planned :)


They already made their mind, much as CCP Soundwave is determined to fuk evey last researcher by handling datacores to FW (it takes a really crooked mind to hand over T2 production to PvPrs right under the nose of hisec industrialists... most people, is really too sane to even conceive that)

Since Incarna the whole EVE development has become about stealing gameplay from Johnny Hisec to hand it to Bitchin' Pete, fuking hiseccers each time someone whines about his little niche being broken.
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#160 - 2012-05-04 20:47:56 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Ptraci wrote:
Tl;dr


Again, **** your mindless null sec PVP, your politics, your life style, **** capital ships, RMT and alarm clock ops. Viva Empire, PVP that requires thinking, and a small tight niche group of players that you actually enjoy hanging around with when you come home from work.


Oh god I just laughed so hard at this. You seriously think that only blobs and alarmclock ops happen in null, and that highsec ganking takes a brain.




High sec ganking does not take any brains, you however seem to think that "ganking" is all that happens in empire wars. See what I did there?

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