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Datacore speculation: do or dont?
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clixor
Celluloid Gurus
#21 - 2012-05-03 17:36:36 UTC
Tekota wrote:
Makos Suti wrote:
Datacores are 1000LP + 1m isk for 5


Depends how the dynamic pricing works out on live I guess but I'm guessing CCP have a target LP-isk conversion rate in mind to balance around and I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark and say that's 1000isk per LP. Which would mean 400k datacores. Which would make my post #4 above yet another of my string of dodgy predictions :o)

(Oh and Celi Annor - I see you've been buying up some of my relisted cores which would suggest you're doing just what you said you were doing on the forum - I thought the accepted forum protocol was to post "omg sell!" before buying :o)


f.o.a. source for LP rates?

Excuse me for being a bit skeptical about the dynamic pricing. Wasn't ship insurance supposed to be dynamically linked to min prices as well?
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#22 - 2012-05-03 17:47:44 UTC  |  Edited by: corestwo
answered my own question, generated a new one.

If a team clears a site, is the LP reward for it split amongst them or do they each get that? ie, five people clear a major, is it 25k each or 5k each?

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Maxpie
MUSE LLP
#23 - 2012-05-03 19:15:04 UTC
So is it better to cash in RP now (whether you want to stockpile or sell), or is there some possibility that the system will be changed in such a way that it would be more useful to hold onto them?

No good deed goes unpunished
clixor
Celluloid Gurus
#24 - 2012-05-03 22:38:29 UTC
Maxpie wrote:
So is it better to cash in RP now (whether you want to stockpile or sell), or is there some possibility that the system will be changed in such a way that it would be more useful to hold onto them?


As it stands now there will be additional costs for converting the RP. The convertion rate will remain similar so i think best way forward is to collect.
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
#25 - 2012-05-04 03:38:09 UTC
All I know is Amarrian Starship Engineering cores have tripled in price at Jita.

Based on everything people are saying, those are the ones that will either bottleneck the R&D or glut the market. If they intend to make RP cost more to convert, it means everything but LP store cores will spike. Or they will all skyrocket and I can just add that to the list of crap someone else can do.
Slavemaster
ICC - Information Control Corporation
#26 - 2012-05-04 08:13:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Slavemaster
This is not investment unless you know more than your regular Eve player. It can go both ways.
- But, I believe its gonna crash hard.

CCP wants more t2 ships in game or do they want less ?
So... If you believe that CCP wants X * ships in game then invest in it.

Get it ???

X* Solve the puzzle for 10 points

Oo
Caecilia Arene
Doomheim
#27 - 2012-05-04 11:30:03 UTC
Certainly a speculative investment with some possible downside risk. But if you have some spare ISK I'd say go in and go hard Cool...

Wel'... maybe not 100% of you ISK but certainly some % of your reserves.
Aeryn Calbert
House Mekarae
#28 - 2012-05-04 14:42:17 UTC
This could be an interesting play... Not convinced in the long term but short term has been somewhat interesting... Blink
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
#29 - 2012-05-06 02:30:06 UTC
Real price in data cores will come from price of naval insignia. They are needed to trade for data cores from LP agents.
Captain Carius
#30 - 2012-05-06 17:48:24 UTC
Seems to me every schmuck in FW will be dumping RP on datacores for at least a bit when it happens. Prices for datacores will likely be down then.
Boomhaur
#31 - 2012-05-07 01:24:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Boomhaur
Mara Rinn wrote:
As some context, I have all three characters on all my accounts trained to farm data cores. The effort involved in collecting the data cores alone ensures that this is not a "passive" income stream. Without the work of wandering around collecting the cores, I wouldn't have them, and thus wouldn't have any income derived from cores.

For each character, I have 5 or 6 agents to talk to. The typical autopilot route to talk to these agents is about 40 jumps long, taking me from one end of New Eden to the other. Thus I'm manually piloting for about 50 minutes. On top of this is the actual interaction with the agent which is relatively minor (start conversation -> buy data cores -> click OK, you're done). But then there's the actual shipping of data cores to a market hub. Nobody pays decent prices in Kador, Tash Murkon or similar arse-end-of-the-universe regions.

So the trip is either done in an Orca or a blockade runner, at-keyboard all the way. There's no sense hauling a few tens of millions of ISK around the cluster in a Mammoth. At the end of this, I'll have about 60-80M ISK worth of data cores. This income compares favourably with L4 missions or hisec grav site mining in terms of ISK/hr. Sure, I can increase the ISK/hr ratio by only collecting the data cores once every three months or so: at the cost of the data cores I'm collecting being out of fashion. Part of the process of making ISK from data cores is listing them on the market and ensuring I get the highest price I can. If I don't, that potential 80M ISK worth of data cores a month becomes more like 50M ISK as my market gets destroyed by FOTM-farmers. Maximising income from data cores is a long-term project, involving another 10-20 minutes a day of reviewing market orders (for which you must be in the appropriate region).

Anyone who thinks data cores are actually passive income has rocks in their head. It's no more passive than running L4s in a Tengu (which is mind numbingly boring compared to mining).


Your doing it wrong if you want it passive, you don't need to haul it yourself. I have research agents myself, what I do is I have either one of my stupidly high EHP ships or assault ship set up to resist most bored suicide gankers (while still being decently fast) who would try it just for the thrill, or jump clone and cheap frig or anything so I can "safely" afk. (use your own descretion on what to do)

Than I just set the course to autopilot to each agent, I collect the datacores and setup a contract to bring them to the nearest trade hub. When they get delivered to the trade hubs I setup another contract to bring them to the main trade hub I want (mainly jita since I'm lazy), found this to be one of the most effective ways as there are generally people who are hauling between trade hubs who want to earn a little extra cash who don't mind bring your goods along if it means a quick buck. (or you can contract straight to your destination 40+ jumps away but I find that takes awhile to be picked up)

So quick recap, make afk travel "safer" for yourself or minimize loss. Secondly don't haul it yourself setup contract for short range trip to trade hub, than long range between trade hubs. I find this works best from my experience, especially with high value or high volume goods.

As for looking at each market, I have alts for that setup in the main markets so it's a quick log on for them and I can see what it is. If not, said alt will be in a shuttle or other frig on quick afk trip to there, not exactly a big deal. When I did my last run for datacores I probably put in over 200 jumps and did almost no work. It require more work for me to run a mission in my NIghthawk than this.

Welcome to Eve. Everyone here is an Evil Sick Sadistic Bastard who is out to get you. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either trying to scam you or use you.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#32 - 2012-05-07 11:21:27 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
I'm not stocking up, but I'm not cashing out either. Buying on a JIT-basis as I need them.

I really think it's a case of CCP not understanding the datacore market. Is it passive income? Technically yes. But it's not an ISK faucet and the items are only worth what other players will pay for them, which has gotten less and less over the years. So now you have to spend 2-6 weeks grinding up standings, plus 50M ISK in skill books, only to end up with an income source that pays out somewhere around 1.8 datacores/day (if you do not run missions). That works out to a measly 8-15M ISK/mo per agent (30-60 days to earn back your 50M ISK).

Frankly, if CCP has common sense, they won't touch the passive RP/day or the RP cost of datacores at all. That gives the market a baseline supply to feed the growing subscriber base.

Instead they should simply boost supply:

1) Increase the RP reward that you get from doing the daily R&D mission. Boost that payout by 3x-5x and the people who are willing to do the daily missions will end up with the bulk of the reward. It keeps the Research Project Management skill as a viable skill, plus you need the datacore skills in order to talk to the agent.

2) Add the racial engineering datacores to the FW corps LP stores. Maybe you can only buy them if you train the datacore skill to some level. Or set a minimum standing requirement.

3) Add the other datacores to the R&D NPC corp LP stores. If you can currently talk to an R&D agent and get RP in a particular datacore area, then that NPC corp should also sell the datacores of that type. Maybe you can only buy them if you train the datacore skill to some level. Maybe set a minimum standing requirement, or introduce a discount of up to 20% as your standing with the corp gets closer to +10.

Boosting supply means that passive-only earners will end up with less ISK/month, without completely pulling the rug out from under them in an abrupt fashion. You tick off fewer people if you slowly nerf passive R&D farming as an income source then if you simply remove it right off the bat.



They already managed to make PI almost interestingness to painful/tedious awful income if you start comparing invested time/isk/h.
Now Datacores, I always laugh when I se that vid where soundwave talks about he's research alts yadayada, thing is that those have low to almost no use (numbers required) and everyone who has alts for this either stockpile those or sell them directly at the lowest price. 30min +/- to go get those datacores 1/month and you're making less isk/h than rate in null.

Sometimes I have hard time understanding how they read those numbers.
Tom Hagen
Twilight Empire
#33 - 2012-05-07 14:01:28 UTC
I cant predict how this will turn out.
But I invested in the datacores below 200k. My reasoning is that LP will be used on the Datacores that atm have the highest price, so over time all the datacore will balance out.
Approximately 1000 ISK/LP has been a guideline for a long time (or at least used to be).
With the current price (havent even checked the numbers my self) 1000LP + 1mil ISK = 5 Datacores, it ends up around 200k each.
All of this is subject to changes in the patch and ofc how the dynamic pricing will work, but I guess thats the risk one take.

But this isn't why I posted.
I am confused by people who complain about ISK/h or how this is not an passive income..
I can only tell you how it works for me and you guys can tell me if it is passive or not and if I should complain about ISK/h.

On average spread over several accounts and characters I think it was around 2 years since the last time I collected any datacores.

So for 2 years I have done Nothing and now because Soundwave said so, I spent an hour or an hour and a half on each character to collect. Before that I think it was a year or so since I did it.

To me it has been a very nice income, for a in comparison short period of invested time in Skill training and mission running.

If you like, so ofc you can make RP collecting anything but passive. You can even start doing mission for them every day if you like. But I think you have missed what Soundwave refer to as a passive income. And maybe if you were looking for an passive income in RP you have failed to make it one ;-) Most likely the changes isn't meant to screw you over but are aimed at guys like me and apparently Soundwave!
PC5
project HAVEN
#34 - 2012-05-07 17:49:01 UTC  |  Edited by: PC5
Boys and girls - do your math again.
On tier1 FW miltia pays 1k lp + 1m for 5 datacores
Tier 2 - 500 lp + 500k isk
Tier 3 - (speculation) 250 lp + 250k isk
Tier 4 - ?
Tier 5 - ?

ATM Amarr Militia is capable to reach Tier2 only with their 20 systems FULLY uprgaded (150k lp investend in EACH hub)
Apoc Navy on tier2 costs 500k lp + apoc hull
Armag Navy on tier2 costs 300k lp + armag hull
Omen Navy on tier2 costs 90k lp + omen hull
Slicer - 20klp + tag

Enjoy your math

PICS OR IT DIDINT HAPPEN
Maria Yumeno
Venomous Cloud
#35 - 2012-05-07 18:21:53 UTC
PC5 wrote:
Boys and girls - do your math again.
On tier1 FW miltia pays 1k lp + 1m for 5 datacores
Tier 2 - 500 lp + 500k isk
Tier 3 - (speculation) 250 lp + 250k isk
Tier 4 - ?
Tier 5 - ?

ATM Amarr Militia is capable to reach Tier2 only with their 20 systems FULLY uprgaded (150k lp investend in EACH hub)
Apoc Navy on tier2 costs 500k lp + apoc hull
Armag Navy on tier2 costs 300k lp + armag hull
Omen Navy on tier2 costs 90k lp + omen hull
Slicer - 20klp + tag

Enjoy your math

PICS OR IT DIDINT HAPPEN



so that basically puts amarr Datacores at a value of 150k-200k each.

Where are the other factions at in comparison to amarr?
Caecilia Arene
Doomheim
#36 - 2012-05-09 17:47:41 UTC
So, I wonder how the new dev blog of Faction Warfare will affect the datacore prices...

I'm reducing my exposure to these until I better run the numbers and determine the risks.
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#37 - 2012-05-09 17:51:08 UTC  |  Edited by: corestwo
Presumably, it would solidify the expectation that they would rise.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#38 - 2012-05-09 20:08:15 UTC
Caecilia Arene wrote:
So, I wonder how the new dev blog of Faction Warfare will affect the datacore prices...

I'm reducing my exposure to these until I better run the numbers and determine the risks.

RP basically halved.

Only Minmatar faction have access to Mechanical Engineering.

My ship datacores were nearly double what I paid before the dev blog.
Celi Annor
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2012-05-09 20:19:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Celi Annor
Tekota wrote:
Makos Suti wrote:
Datacores are 1000LP + 1m isk for 5


Depends how the dynamic pricing works out on live I guess but I'm guessing CCP have a target LP-isk conversion rate in mind to balance around and I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark and say that's 1000isk per LP. Which would mean 400k datacores. Which would make my post #4 above yet another of my string of dodgy predictions :o)

(Oh and Celi Annor - I see you've been buying up some of my relisted cores which would suggest you're doing just what you said you were doing on the forum - I thought the accepted forum protocol was to post "omg sell!" before buying :o)



Yep I have a lot of datacore Lol

Not quite sure to offload this many, but if anyones interested in investing 20bil+ let me know
Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
#40 - 2012-05-09 21:16:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Diomedes Calypso
Tom Hagen wrote:
I cant predict how this will turn out.
But I invested in the datacores below 200k. My reasoning is that LP will be used on the Datacores that atm have the highest price, so over time all the datacore will balance out.
Approximately 1000 ISK/LP has been a guideline for a long time (or at least used to be).
With the current price (havent even checked the numbers my self) 1000LP + 1mil ISK = 5 Datacores, it ends up around 200k each.
All of this is subject to changes in the patch and ofc how the dynamic pricing will work, but I guess thats the risk one take.

But this isn't why I posted.
I am confused by people who complain about ISK/h or how this is not an passive income..
I can only tell you how it works for me and you guys can tell me if it is passive or not and if I should complain about ISK/h.

On average spread over several accounts and characters I think it was around 2 years since the last time I collected any datacores.

So for 2 years I have done Nothing and now because Soundwave said so, I spent an hour or an hour and a half on each character to collect. Before that I think it was a year or so since I did it.

To me it has been a very nice income, for a in comparison short period of invested time in Skill training and mission running.

If you like, so ofc you can make RP collecting anything but passive. You can even start doing mission for them every day if you like. But I think you have missed what Soundwave refer to as a passive income. And maybe if you were looking for an passive income in RP you have failed to make it one ;-) Most likely the changes isn't meant to screw you over but are aimed at guys like me and apparently Soundwave!


2 years is a long time so in your case you are closer to passive income but you did say it took you an hour and a half. to get them and sell at market.

If you had say RM trained to 4 and the specific Science skill trained to 4 and had high enough standings to qualify for level 4 agents you'd be picking up about 3000 datacores a year. 6000 in your case. in the past you'd be lucky to be able to have the right type cashed in at over 200k per. ... if you timed the pick up right and didn't pound the market maybe more.. but lets use that as a starting poing.

That would be 600 million a year at 200k, 1.2 billion for your hour and a half..

If that hour and a half were the only concern, yes that would be a damn high isk per hour opportunity ... 800 million isk per hour.

But, you only would have that opportunith to earn at that rate for 4.5 hours on the account per 2 years. Thre are always some lucky breaks over a few years.. and mega focused mision runners etc make some high isk per hour. too although not that high..

In your closer to perfect case scenario you don't quite have a passive income but and incredibly high income per hour for a limmited number of hours.

But I'd question that 1.5 hour.s I'd say the very very minimum you could spend to get an alt up to high standing, pick out agents and spend the same hour and a half you just did at the begining is more like10 to 20 hours per character. There are other upfront costs.

Lets say you would have already had standing on one of your characters on the account, it would be less likely that the average player had high standing on all three (most characters for sale for 10s of billions don't have high enough standing for lvl 4 research agents though) and say 15 hours per character training plus the hour and a half to get it started visiing the agentns.

That would have you dividing by 18 , not 1 1/2 hours an you'd be geting an income of like 66 million isk per hour invested not the 800 million which you wouldn't get till 2 years later. If you combined your first 4 years of accrual with just one pick up in between you'd have gotten the chance of earning 120 million isk per hour for a limit of the 19.5 hours you 'd invested over th 4 years.

Now, if you want to use a longer time frame than 4 years fine.. but the key is there are a lot of hours spent in advance to get a limitted number of hours a year in the future picking them up.

A minor change like capping the number of RP could accrue to 1 years worth would make you just entiteld to 250 million per hour once a year for 1 1/2 half hours even if you ignored the large time commitment intiially put in or figured people would play the game for 20 years and that the initial hours should be amortized to only a 20th of those upfront hours.

.