These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Missile ships...We have come full circle and...
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Ishanmae
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#21 - 2012-05-03 15:01:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Ishanmae
nahjustwarpin wrote:
because they have long range (no slowboating to every targe in pve, easy gtfo in pvp/pve), drake has BS tank, tengu has ridiculous dps for it's range.


You're missing my point there... I agree that the Tengu and the Drake are great ships... I wasn't saying that missiles are crap either...

I am just saying that the ubiquitous argument *Tengu IS OP, whine whine* doesn't necessarily imply that missiles are OP. And missiles were the topic of discussion.

EDIT: just to clarify... I was pointing to what I perceive as a flaw in the underlying logic of the first post I quoted. I wasn't trying to swing the discussion one way or the other.
nahjustwarpin
SUPER DUPER SPACE TRUCKS
#22 - 2012-05-03 15:54:10 UTC
Ishanmae wrote:
nahjustwarpin wrote:
because they have long range (no slowboating to every targe in pve, easy gtfo in pvp/pve), drake has BS tank, tengu has ridiculous dps for it's range.


You're missing my point there... I agree that the Tengu and the Drake are great ships... I wasn't saying that missiles are crap either...

I am just saying that the ubiquitous argument *Tengu IS OP, whine whine* doesn't necessarily imply that missiles are OP. And missiles were the topic of discussion.

EDIT: just to clarify... I was pointing to what I perceive as a flaw in the underlying logic of the first post I quoted. I wasn't trying to swing the discussion one way or the other.


you need to reread your own question. you asked about missile boats, so i answered that, and then you changed, that it's not about them, but missiles.
Tikktokk Tokkzikk
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#23 - 2012-05-03 16:40:05 UTC
You'll get a lot of eye candy to make up for it, though.Smile
Cunanium
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2012-05-03 18:33:35 UTC
Ishanmae wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:
I love the fact that youre complaining about a weapon system that is used by the 2 MOST popular ships in EVE (Tengu and Drake).
Really gives me the impression that you have done your research...

Bottom line is that missiles are for carebears, train your toons accordingly.


I hate that argument, which comes up in every thread where missiles, tengus or drakes are mentioned...

Amongst the reasons that make the drake and tengu so popular, the lack of other valid missile ships is quite prevalent. (I do love my Nighthawk though, but it requires more training than a tengu, and gets lower DPS.)

Which means that most people that trained for missiles are likely to fly one of those two ships, while people having trained hybrids, lasers or drones are spread out over more ship hulls... Not to mention projectile weapons!

Not saying it's the only reason, not whining about anything either... just saying I'm tired of that line!



Your point is invalid. There are many people who are more than capable of flying many many types of ships throughout all races, but yet the Tengu is a major FOTM for pvp. You don't see Loki blobs... you see Tengus. You don't see Prophecy blobs, you see Drake armies.

This isn't to say that there aren't other ships that are blobbed. People still do the Abaddon or geddon blob, AHAC groups still happen, and several new T3's have opened the door for new comps, like Oracle blobs, or Nado/cane groups.

Is there significant room for improvement for missiles? Yes, the T2 ammo's are lack luster, and beefing missiles will improve the other (very few) missile boat opportunities. I have to admit though, most other missile boats that I can think of that have a place in PVP are amarr... and don't have crazy intrinsic missile bonuses.

Everything being said, missiles are no where near as bad as people make them out to be, and in many circumstances give definative bonus (fast tackle on a missile boat with heavy tank... lawl).
SpaceSquirrels
#25 - 2012-05-03 18:37:57 UTC
Temper tantrum...
Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#26 - 2012-05-03 19:12:59 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
Patri Andari wrote:
I just want equity, nothing more.




Well then I guess missiles are going to need some sort of new tracking system that takes relative velocity into account, like turrets.

Also, they'll need to be able to miss entirely. Roll



Actually they already can and do miss frequently, My range with Light Missiles on my Kestrel is 40.2 KM I have maxed Missile skills, if I shoot at a frigate doing more than 400m/s much past 32KM away I usually will miss completely.
Kalli Brixzat
#27 - 2012-05-03 21:31:48 UTC
Zyress wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
Patri Andari wrote:
I just want equity, nothing more.




Well then I guess missiles are going to need some sort of new tracking system that takes relative velocity into account, like turrets.

Also, they'll need to be able to miss entirely. Roll



Actually they already can and do miss frequently, My range with Light Missiles on my Kestrel is 40.2 KM I have maxed Missile skills, if I shoot at a frigate doing more than 400m/s much past 32KM away I usually will miss completely.


Not really a "miss" per se. More like, shooting stuff that's further away than you can hit.

In any event...OP:

Quit your crying. Missiles are solid PvE weapon systems...especially given that you can do any damage-type and switch on the fly. Missile frigs can be ok (see Kestrel), but missiles just aren't that great for 1v1 or even small gang PvP.
Sid Hudgens
Doomheim
#28 - 2012-05-04 01:59:28 UTC
I hate to agree in any way with such a screw-ball post, but I too feel that missiles are doomed.

Why?

Because aside from training an alt up to scrapmetal processing 4 and grinding some standings for for a research agent corp I have been training the heck out of missile skills... and I seem to see a pattern forming.

I am, as usual, only mildly butthurt ... and will, as always, get over it.

I'm just sayin... CCP hates me, but I will not be defeated.

Also I have indisputable proof that goons are behind all of this but I cannot release it for fear the goonies will order TEST to set me blue, a fate far worse than death.

"....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced."
Tarn Kugisa
Kugisa Dynamics
#29 - 2012-05-04 02:54:31 UTC
But... my Sniper Raven!

Be polite. Be efficient. Have a plan to troll everyone you meet - KuroVolt
11eyes
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#30 - 2012-05-04 03:04:42 UTC
Tarn Kugisa wrote:
But... my Sniper Raven!


I feel you bro. Personally i'd like to see cruise and torps getting a buff, and to all those people complaining that the tengu is OP and it does so much DPS this would be because people faction fit their tengus out the arse in both PVE and PVP.
Dhuras
The Classy Gentlemans Corporation
Moist.
#31 - 2012-05-04 04:29:52 UTC
Cunanium wrote:



Your point is invalid. There are many people who are more than capable of flying many many types of ships throughout all races, but yet the Tengu is a major FOTM for pvp. You don't see Loki blobs... you see Tengus. You don't see Prophecy blobs, you see Drake armies.



I can say i see fleets blobing wit loki's and proteuses, NOT tengus quite frequently
Jack Tronic
borkedLabs
#32 - 2012-05-04 05:50:03 UTC
LOL let's give tengus more than the 160km missile range they can already have
Sunviking
Doomheim
#33 - 2012-05-04 07:21:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Sunviking
Patri Andari wrote:
We are looking at our asses.

Let's recap. With the introduction of drone damage modules here is the state of things thus far.

Soon lasers, hybrids, projectiles AND drones will have both modules and rigs that modify all their stats. Range, damage and tracking will be altered by modules and rigs. They will also of course continue to receive the benefits of target painters. Recent changes to T2 ammo has removed all or most ship penalties from T2 turret ammo and drones never had such penalties so rejoice! I guess.

MEANWHILE:

Missiles have a damage module and benefit from "tracking" and range enhancements only in the form of rigs or target painters. Add to that the fact that T2 missiles are the only T2 ammo that retains its full ship penalties and things seem bleak at best for missile users. Need I add that CCP announced at fanfest their plans to allow tracking disruters to apply to missiles without any mention of a counter and it seems the writing is on the wall.


How about you do the followig CCP:

Remove missiles from the game other than torps (for stealth bombers only) and refund those skill points. You already took away any pirate ships worth training for missile users. Why not just deliver the killing blow? I mean we all know you plan to nerf Tengu to the ground and God knows you hate the Drake (just watch ANY alliance tournament and hear dev comments)

Either give us missile users some modules to choose from and remove those stupid T2 ship penalties or just kill the weapon already. Enough of this stepchild treatment already.


Given that they are introducing new Missile graphics, I would say that Missiles are hear to stay.

Your suggestion is stupid. If Missiles are removed, why not just remove the whole Caldari race as well? After all, the only reason a large number of players choose to have Cladari characters/alts is because of the perception that Missiles are supposedly good for PvE (which I disagree with, being Caldari myself).

I can understand your frustration at the neglected-child treatment or missiles, but you really should be arguing for Missiles to be rebalanced, not just moaning.

I started a Thread in General Discussion about Missile Rebalancing, of which everybody's support and/or comments would be appreciated.
Bap1811
Shiva
Northern Coalition.
#34 - 2012-05-04 11:25:29 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
Patri Andari wrote:
I just want equity, nothing more.




Well then I guess missiles are going to need some sort of new tracking system that takes relative velocity into account, like turrets.

Also, they'll need to be able to miss entirely. Roll


One day you will learn game mechanics.




Maybe.
Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#35 - 2012-05-04 14:30:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Zyress
Kalli Brixzat wrote:
Zyress wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
Patri Andari wrote:
I just want equity, nothing more.




Well then I guess missiles are going to need some sort of new tracking system that takes relative velocity into account, like turrets.

Also, they'll need to be able to miss entirely. Roll



Actually they already can and do miss frequently, My range with Light Missiles on my Kestrel is 40.2 KM I have maxed Missile skills, if I shoot at a frigate doing more than 400m/s much past 32KM away I usually will miss completely.


Not really a "miss" per se. More like, shooting stuff that's further away than you can hit.

In any event...OP:

Quit your crying. Missiles are solid PvE weapon systems...especially given that you can do any damage-type and switch on the fly. Missile frigs can be ok (see Kestrel), but missiles just aren't that great for 1v1 or even small gang PvP.


So how is my missile running out of fuel while chasing a target inside my maximum range different from a turret ship missing a target because its tracking can't keep up? Lots of ships are fast enough to do it much further inside my range
Haulie Berry
#36 - 2012-05-04 15:15:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Bap1811 wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
Patri Andari wrote:
I just want equity, nothing more.




Well then I guess missiles are going to need some sort of new tracking system that takes relative velocity into account, like turrets.

Also, they'll need to be able to miss entirely. Roll


One day you will learn game mechanics.




Maybe.



Relative velocity. As in, the velocity of the target with respect to the velocity of your ship. This is a concern for turret ships as your own velocity affects transversal as much as the other guy's. Missiles do not suffer from this. They do not care how fast you are going, they only care how fast the other guy is going.
Joran Dravius
Doomheim
#37 - 2012-05-04 15:18:53 UTC
There's nothing wrong with missiles. Half the population of Eve is flying a tengu or drake.
Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#38 - 2012-05-04 15:21:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Zyress
Haulie Berry wrote:
Bap1811 wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
Patri Andari wrote:
I just want equity, nothing more.




Well then I guess missiles are going to need some sort of new tracking system that takes relative velocity into account, like turrets.

Also, they'll need to be able to miss entirely. Roll


One day you will learn game mechanics.




Maybe.



Relative velocity. As in, the velocity of the target with respect to the velocity of your ship. This is a concern for turret ships as your own velocity affects transversal as much as the other guy's. Missiles do not suffer from this. They do not care how fast you are going, they only care how fast the other guy is going.

One day you will learn to read.


Relative Velocity or Angular velocity, a miss is still a miss One day you will come up with something better than "One day" to preface your criticisms
Haulie Berry
#39 - 2012-05-04 15:27:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Zyress wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
Bap1811 wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
Patri Andari wrote:
I just want equity, nothing more.




Well then I guess missiles are going to need some sort of new tracking system that takes relative velocity into account, like turrets.

Also, they'll need to be able to miss entirely. Roll


One day you will learn game mechanics.




Maybe.



Relative velocity. As in, the velocity of the target with respect to the velocity of your ship. This is a concern for turret ships as your own velocity affects transversal as much as the other guy's. Missiles do not suffer from this. They do not care how fast you are going, they only care how fast the other guy is going.

One day you will learn to read.


Relative Velocity or Angular velocity, a miss is still a miss One day you will come up with something better than "One day" to preface your criticisms


One day you, will learn how to use punctuation.

And, yes, while it is technically possible to outrun oversized missiles in small, fast ships, this is a relatively fringe case, whereas getting under someone's guns is a completely normal and routine event.

In practice, it doesn't happen. If you're missing with missiles, it's because whatever you're shooting at is too far away, or you're doing something particularly stupid like lobbing torpedos at an interceptor. They really can't code around your particular brand of stupid, so that's okay. In actual practice, 99/100 times missiles can be reasonably said to not miss. This cannot be said of turrets.
Ravenesa
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#40 - 2012-05-04 15:41:45 UTC
You see missiles more in small gang PvP compared to large scale PvP, though that is not always the case (Goon Drake/Male fleets) but there is some room for improvement.

1. I agree the T2 ship penalty removal should apply to missiles as well, it is only "fair"

2. Missle "Short Range" weapons take a completely opposite path compared to Blasters, Lasers, and AC's. When you switch to these weaposn you get improved tracking and damage, but at the cost of range. For Rockets, HAM's and Torps you get the range reduction and the better paper DPS, but the whole sig radious/explo velcioty damare reduction makes them worse, especially against smaller targets. Medium guns can hit small targets, HAM's hit for jack squat.