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@CCP - breach of national laws

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Ciar Meara
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#181 - 2012-05-02 14:36:49 UTC
Geil Ding wrote:

I miss the option where MY mails are excluded from the API of another player. Aside of the legal aspect, what do you think what will happen with the ingame features "corp mail" and "alliance mail" when sites like these will become more common?


*hushed voice* ARMAGEDDON *hushed voice*

- [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow]
Henry Haphorn
Killer Yankee
#182 - 2012-05-02 14:55:32 UTC
Geil Ding wrote:
You know, the whole problem is not about game related mails made public but personal information about stuff like health. The API does not filter those out. A spy would never copy/paste personal information to a public website as it holds no "ingame value" to be used.

Let me ask this: If I would post links to illegal content, like movies, and eveskunk automatic make them public. Who would be wrong? Eveskunk for making links to illegal content public? CCP for helping eveskunk retreiving the mails? The person sharing the API? Or the person sending a personal mail to his/her friends?


Dude, stop. Just stop already.

I have done my research on business law and I have learned, given what is said on the End User License Agreement and on the Terms of Service, that the fact that Eve-mails being exposed like this has no legal implications. You agreed to the EULA/TOS when you signed up for Eve Online. Therefore, no right-minded lawyer or layer will ever help you. They will laugh at you and then move on.

Stop trying to troll us because it's not working. Stop pretending that you can have CCP undo your stupid mistakes for not checking for spies in your corp and not updating your API accordingly, and stop embarrassing yourself. Actually, never mind. Keep embarrassing yourself. We need more tears.

Adapt or Die
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#183 - 2012-05-02 16:10:27 UTC
Geil Ding wrote:
Let me ask this: If I would post links to illegal content, like movies, and eveskunk automatic make them public. Who would be wrong? Eveskunk for making links to illegal content public? CCP for helping eveskunk retreiving the mails? The person sharing the API? Or the person sending a personal mail to his/her friends?

The author of the original link would be culpable, whether he intended the communication private or not (the medium is specified non-private).

Everyone else in the chain has plausible deniability due to

a) Their TOS prohibiting you writing that content in the first place
b) They're providing a medium and offer no content control, make no pretense to, and indeed outright state the authorship remains with the author.

You're basically using a service that makes no pretense to privacy and security and OPENLY gives tools to other users of that service to intercept those communications. You sign an agreement to allow this.

If you're posting private messages with the above caveats in place, you're doing it wrong.
If you're posting private in-game messages, then, well, you just got meta-gamed son.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Ibrihm Esenhorn
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#184 - 2012-05-02 16:54:56 UTC
Geil Ding wrote:
I think many have seen www.eveskunk.com by now. An API from a player is (ab)used to show alliance mails on a website for everybody to see. But this is against many national laws, privacy laws to be exact. The problem could correct itself if the sender of the mail has an option to exclude the mail from the API, but there is no such option.

My question to CCP, will the API be changed and the alliance and corp mails removed from the API? Torrent site aren't downloading the content themselfs, but facilitate it.. So is CCP, not sending the mails to website like www.eveskunk.com but CCP does facilitate it.



I can be pretty sure that, in the US at least, email does not have a general expectation of privacy. Barring single communication with a spouse, lawyer, or limited protection for doctors any recipient of an email can make it public with no legal repercussions - even if the email says something along the lines of "for authorized use only".
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#185 - 2012-05-02 17:13:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Antisocial Malkavian
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:
Geil Ding wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Can someone please just post an image of the API key creation page where you need to purposefully check mail messages for them to be included and end this thread?

I'd do it but I'm lazy and tired and today's a holiday so I'm watching movies.


I miss the option where MY mails are excluded from the API of another player. Aside of the legal aspect, what do you think what will happen with the ingame features "corp mail" and "alliance mail" when sites like these will become more common?


Once you send them to another person, they aren't 'your mails' anymore.

Still waiting for that law sweetheart.


An Im waiting for the one that directly relates to EVE or any video game in game mail

Geil reminds me of someone that would throw money at a case like thing JUST to GET A precedence

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Geil Ding
Perkone
Caldari State
#186 - 2012-05-02 17:44:00 UTC
First of all the EULA has no legal value, at all.. Torrent sites all have an EULA, yet they are all found illegal. Any EULA, or contract, that breaks the law in one way or another will be nullified. I do not know if the website, or the API, breaks any law but it is worth investigating by CCP and define a stance on such sites. But whether or not if it is against any law, atleast it is unethical.



I do think this topic needs to be locked as enough has been said. It is clear that the privacy laws is different for most players and any discussion on this topic is pointless.
seany1212
M Y S T
#187 - 2012-05-02 17:44:58 UTC
Geil Ding wrote:
First of all the EULA has no legal value, at all.. Torrent sites all have an EULA, yet they are all found illegal. Any EULA, or contract, that breaks the law in one way or another will be nullified. I do not know if the website, or the API, breaks any law but it is worth investigating by CCP and define a stance on such sites. But whether or not if it is against any law, atleast it is unethical.



I do think this topic needs to be locked as enough has been said. It is clear that the privacy laws is different for most players and any discussion on this topic is pointless.


MMO's are not for you... Roll
Spymaster Bates
Doomheim
#188 - 2012-05-02 20:19:13 UTC
Geil Ding wrote:
First of all the EULA has no legal value, at all.. Torrent sites all have an EULA, yet they are all found illegal. Any EULA, or contract, that breaks the law in one way or another will be nullified. I do not know if the website, or the API, breaks any law but it is worth investigating by CCP and define a stance on such sites. But whether or not if it is against any law, atleast it is unethical.



I do think this topic needs to be locked as enough has been said. It is clear that the privacy laws is different for most players and any discussion on this topic is pointless.


Get out now!

The end is coming!

/thread

Twitter - @eveskunk

Overseer Aliena
Lord of Wars
#189 - 2012-05-02 20:26:16 UTC
Geil Ding wrote:
I do not know if the website, or the API, breaks any law


But...but..your title says there was breach of national laws! You stated in your OP that there was! You sounded so sure and I believed you. And now I find it was all a lie...

Thank you Geil Ding, I have learned a valuable lesson today. I can never trust another human being ever again.
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#190 - 2012-05-02 20:55:04 UTC
Overseer Aliena wrote:
Geil Ding wrote:
I do not know if the website, or the API, breaks any law


But...but..your title says there was breach of national laws! You stated in your OP that there was! You sounded so sure and I believed you. And now I find it was all a lie...

Thank you Geil Ding, I have learned a valuable lesson today. I can never trust another human being ever again.

You can trust me.

Let me hold your wallet.

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc
EFF ONEF1
Caldari Grand Prix Engineering
#191 - 2012-05-02 21:36:26 UTC
Does anyone know if that one alliance asking for ts donations ever got them? I'd be sad if they couldn't hear mouth breathing anymore
Aglea Toralen
Doomheim
#192 - 2012-05-02 21:45:08 UTC
EFF ONEF1 wrote:
Does anyone know if that one alliance asking for ts donations ever got them? I'd be sad if they couldn't hear mouth breathing anymore


It was one of the first things I spammed in Jita!

http://www.eveskunk.com/?messageID=312635286

Hopefully they did, maybe they can send a follow up alliance email.
Fannie Maes
Doomheim
#193 - 2012-05-02 21:52:17 UTC
seany1212 wrote:
Geil Ding wrote:
First of all the EULA has no legal value, at all.. Torrent sites all have an EULA, yet they are all found illegal. Any EULA, or contract, that breaks the law in one way or another will be nullified. I do not know if the website, or the API, breaks any law but it is worth investigating by CCP and define a stance on such sites. But whether or not if it is against any law, atleast it is unethical.



I do think this topic needs to be locked as enough has been said. It is clear that the privacy laws is different for most players and any discussion on this topic is pointless.


MMO's are not for you... Roll



OP is an idiot but I do think the bigger idiot is the one that thinks an EULA or TOS is law.
Doctor Ungabungas
Doomheim
#194 - 2012-05-02 22:46:28 UTC
Fannie Maes wrote:
seany1212 wrote:
Geil Ding wrote:
First of all the EULA has no legal value, at all.. Torrent sites all have an EULA, yet they are all found illegal. Any EULA, or contract, that breaks the law in one way or another will be nullified. I do not know if the website, or the API, breaks any law but it is worth investigating by CCP and define a stance on such sites. But whether or not if it is against any law, atleast it is unethical.



I do think this topic needs to be locked as enough has been said. It is clear that the privacy laws is different for most players and any discussion on this topic is pointless.


MMO's are not for you... Roll



OP is an idiot but I do think the bigger idiot is the one that thinks an EULA or TOS is law.


It's not 'law', but it is a legally binding contract and therefore subject to 'contract law' which is an actual law. Of course since CCP only have offices in the US, UK, China and Iceland, you'd have to go to one of those places to sue them.
Fannie Maes
Doomheim
#195 - 2012-05-02 22:50:19 UTC
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:
Fannie Maes wrote:
seany1212 wrote:
Geil Ding wrote:
First of all the EULA has no legal value, at all.. Torrent sites all have an EULA, yet they are all found illegal. Any EULA, or contract, that breaks the law in one way or another will be nullified. I do not know if the website, or the API, breaks any law but it is worth investigating by CCP and define a stance on such sites. But whether or not if it is against any law, atleast it is unethical.



I do think this topic needs to be locked as enough has been said. It is clear that the privacy laws is different for most players and any discussion on this topic is pointless.


MMO's are not for you... Roll



OP is an idiot but I do think the bigger idiot is the one that thinks an EULA or TOS is law.


It's not 'law', but it is a legally binding contract and therefore subject to 'contract law' which is an actual law. Of course since CCP only have offices in the US, UK, China and Iceland, you'd have to go to one of those places to sue them.



It is not a legally binding contract by law, in the US last trial about that had the judge throw the case out. In the EU it has already been declared to violate existing law.

Welcome to the idiot club.

I also do not have to go to one of those places to sue them, I can sue them in any country they operate in as selling their products and services, that includes all of the EU, just FYI that's all!
Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#196 - 2012-05-02 23:37:24 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Can someone please just post an image of the API key creation page where you need to purposefully check mail messages for them to be included and end this thread?

I'd do it but I'm lazy and tired and today's a holiday so I'm watching movies.


Once a goodposter always a goodposter.
Jovan Geldon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#197 - 2012-05-03 00:21:27 UTC
Geil Ding wrote:
any discussion on this topic is pointless


First sensible thing you've said in the entire thread
Fannie Maes
Doomheim
#198 - 2012-05-03 00:49:32 UTC
Xython wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Can someone please just post an image of the API key creation page where you need to purposefully check mail messages for them to be included and end this thread?

I'd do it but I'm lazy and tired and today's a holiday so I'm watching movies.


Once a goonposter always a goonposter.



Shocked
Adria Origin
Yar Har Fiddle Di Dee
#199 - 2012-05-03 01:16:43 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
If you stop pretending there's a legal aspect I'm happy to explain this to you.


If you'd stop making EVE easier we'd have less idiots like this. Just sayin'
Henry Haphorn
Killer Yankee
#200 - 2012-05-03 03:14:34 UTC
Geil Ding wrote:
First of all the EULA has no legal value, at all.. Torrent sites all have an EULA, yet they are all found illegal. Any EULA, or contract, that breaks the law in one way or another will be nullified. I do not know if the website, or the API, breaks any law but it is worth investigating by CCP and define a stance on such sites. But whether or not if it is against any law, atleast it is unethical.



I do think this topic needs to be locked as enough has been said. It is clear that the privacy laws is different for most players and any discussion on this topic is pointless.


I don't see any lawyers in real life complaining about eve-mails being misused like this, after all these years of this happening, so how about you shut up and get out of this game. It's obvious you don't know the first thing about law.

Adapt or Die