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If you are going to under cut, do it right no just a single isk!

Author
Pinstar Colton
Sweet Asteroid Acres
#41 - 2012-05-02 12:14:32 UTC
Those who .01 undercut are basically wanting to sell/buy for the same price but want priority in the market. The more time you spend babysitting the market, the more often you can .01 your rivals to remain on top. It is a system to reward more active players. (And, like mining, is completely broken by bots)


If you don't have the time or patience to play the .01 game you can either get out of that market, undercut deeper and tolerate lower margins or stick to your original price and wait for the market to shift and fill your order naturally.

In the cat-and-mouse game that is low sec, there is no shame in learning to be a better mouse.

Dalden V
Yellow Lounge Industries
#42 - 2012-05-02 12:16:42 UTC
Mister Crispy wrote:
Mars Theran wrote:
If it makes you feel any better, I regularly buy randomly from 1 of the 3-5 lowest orders. Quite often from 4-5 up, and actually sometimes go up to 10 if the price increase isn't significant. Smile


I used to do that, until I read that the person with the highest/lowest buy/sell order always gets the purchase. =(


That's right, and their order gets filled at the higher price you selected (if it's a sell order). Quite often I see some of my items sold for much higher than I put the order up for.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2012-05-02 16:24:32 UTC  |  Edited by: March rabbit
Ayn Randy wrote:
if your going to be the person who undercuts someone by a huge amount, dont be upset when they all undercut you by 0.01 isk. they are the ones who are cursing you for ruining everyone elses and your own profit!

you just gave me reason to do it! Shocked

seriously: i never seen this side of a coin. but now i see it.

on the other hand undercutting by big amount gives your opponents thing to decide: should they follow you (and cut their profits) or give you chance to sell/buy your stuff fast and leave.
I use this tactic to sell/buy stuff fast when i don't care about 0.01ISK.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Ana Vyr
Vyral Technologies
#44 - 2012-05-02 18:25:32 UTC
I undercut sometimes to encourage somebody to just buy me out to stop the bleeding. It usually works without depressing the price significantly.
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#45 - 2012-05-03 00:25:57 UTC
Eddie Laydon wrote:
karesuto wrote:

I drop my prices over this guy by around 100,000 isk but he still drops by 1


you're a moron


I'd like to contest that.

Lets say we have one guy with 4* 4'000'000 ISK items on market and fifteen guys .01 ISK him, with the total of their product being something like 42000 items. Now, the guy who got .01 ISKed over 4 items managed to sell one of them before getting .01 ISKed and has 3 items left, decides to cut the crap and sell his items for 3'900'000 ISK ea.

...now those guys who .01 ISKed him, managed to sell 15 items in the interim and suddenly their sales stop abruptly as 1 of his items sells, so they .01 ISK him again before he manages to clear out the last 2 items and now they're selling ~42000 items for >100K less than they were originally.

Some simple math:

The guy selling sells 2 items, (and eventually all 4), for 4.0 + 3.9, and we'll say 2*3.8 million, making 15.5 million ISK back from these items he no longer needs, at somewhat less than standard market prices.

The 15 guys selling ~42K items drop there prices from an original amount of ~4.1 million to 4 million, sell 15 items at 100K loss for an average loss of 1.5 million, then drop their prices again by another 100K to 3.9 million, 0.01 ISKing him again, and selling more stock at what is now a 200K loss for an unknown period before he finally sells his last 2 items and gets out.

Who's the moron?
zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
Anya Ohaya
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#46 - 2012-05-03 00:54:12 UTC
Ayn Randy wrote:
they will just buy or sell at any price.


Not sure if trolling.
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#47 - 2012-05-03 02:09:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Kara Books
Ana Vyr wrote:
I undercut sometimes to encourage somebody to just buy me out to stop the bleeding. It usually works without depressing the price significantly.


Il keep buying out while its profitable, on the 3rd time I just set up a 10K buy order at 98% and a 15K Sell order at 102% completely tramping the item for months, taking all the profits of course.

Edit:
reason I was here to ramble about the proximity of the butons to each other:
"View market orders"
"Find in contracts"

I find myself clicking on the "find contracts" a few times a day, boy that can get annoying.
Rengerel en Distel
#48 - 2012-05-03 11:29:58 UTC
Mars Theran wrote:
Eddie Laydon wrote:
karesuto wrote:

I drop my prices over this guy by around 100,000 isk but he still drops by 1


you're a moron


I'd like to contest that.

Lets say we have one guy with 4* 4'000'000 ISK items on market and fifteen guys .01 ISK him, with the total of their product being something like 42000 items. Now, the guy who got .01 ISKed over 4 items managed to sell one of them before getting .01 ISKed and has 3 items left, decides to cut the crap and sell his items for 3'900'000 ISK ea.

...now those guys who .01 ISKed him, managed to sell 15 items in the interim and suddenly their sales stop abruptly as 1 of his items sells, so they .01 ISK him again before he manages to clear out the last 2 items and now they're selling ~42000 items for >100K less than they were originally.

Some simple math:

The guy selling sells 2 items, (and eventually all 4), for 4.0 + 3.9, and we'll say 2*3.8 million, making 15.5 million ISK back from these items he no longer needs, at somewhat less than standard market prices.

The 15 guys selling ~42K items drop there prices from an original amount of ~4.1 million to 4 million, sell 15 items at 100K loss for an average loss of 1.5 million, then drop their prices again by another 100K to 3.9 million, 0.01 ISKing him again, and selling more stock at what is now a 200K loss for an unknown period before he finally sells his last 2 items and gets out.

Who's the moron?


You're not showing a loss, you're showing less profits. You don't lose money by making less than a fictional number. All goods only have a price when they sell. In your example, the people with 42000 units to sell would most likely just wait out 4 items if it's that drastic of an undercut. But please, keep making up totally random examples to try and fit your argument. It's not like if the guy with 4 items had simply undercut by 0.01 he wouldn't have sold his first anyways, right? Oh yeah, he would have, and had made extra profit.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.

Debiru
Universal Fleet Operations
#49 - 2012-05-03 17:15:24 UTC
Tesal wrote:
Debiru wrote:
To OP;
Something you suggest happened a few weeks ago on the Hurricane market in Dodixie. In the span of around 40 hours prices went from 48 million per Cane to 44.3 million. Sure, the undercutter made a few profits in that time, but all he did was soil the market for himself for two weeks (the prices just now came back up). Not only did everyone else's profit go down, but his did as well. Canes went from 5.5m profit to 435k profit. That's the result of undercutting 100,000 ISK every time. 0.01 ISK saves you and every other industrialist money. Undercutting huge amounts for the reason "0.01 ISK undercuts are gay" just shows how poorly you know about market and finance. Stop complaining about a system that preserves good profit margins for yourself to take advantage of.


Thats how you force people out of the market. They say "435k profit on a cane isn't enough, I am going elsewhere to get my sales". When the price comes back there are that many fewer .01 iskers to deal with. Often you can cut it down to 2 or 3 people in competition, down from 10 or 12, which is much more manageable. If you take the long view it makes perfect sense to destroy profit margins every now and then and make people trade elsewhere.

Yes, that's all nice and good, and I've done it myself, but that isn't the situation here. If you read the OP, you'd see he is not trying to force others out of the market, he just simply doesn't have any idea how to play the market. I wish he were talking about cutting people out of the market, because then his post would be somewhat knowledgeable. Unfortunately, he's not, and it isn't.

@March Rabbit; Yes, undercutting large amounts can sometimes get people not to 0.01 ISK you, assuming you're selling a low quantity of the good. Unfortunately, there are industrialists out there who don't think about that and undercut anyway and then it spirals down because the original seller who undercut so heavily undercuts heavily again still thinking his tactic will work when he has hard evidence to the contrary. This is the type of situation that causes the prices of items to drop 15% overnight. Usually it's the blame of two people who are both short-thinking and stubborn.
Meili Jiang
Fugawa Heavy Industries
#50 - 2012-05-04 17:19:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Meili Jiang
I'm jumping in a little late in this conversation, but I did want to add my 0.02 ISK (no pun intended).

For starters, I think both method are valid. The 0.01 ISK game works in certain circumstances, the big price changes work in others. Just like any other PVP activity, which tactic you use is situational. I'll use some of the points in this thread as examples.

As others have pointed out, in certain markets, large cuts can drive out competitors. This is especially true in medium volume markets with spikes in margins. When this happens, new traders may jump in thinking they've found a niche. By undercutting heavily, you will reduce the margins a bit, but you will drive out those competitors back into their zone of comfort. The margins may or may not spike again, but either way they've been driven out.

This is a long-term strategy, however. You wouldn't do deep cuts in a high-volume, low margin business like ammo.

Quote:
In jita, consumers dont wait until a better price comes up to buy or sell an item, they will just buy or sell at any price.

This is true for many items, but not all. Large, expensive items are only bought by people with lots of ISK, and generally, they have lots of ISK because they're patient and willing to wait for good deals. For low volume, high price items, deep undercuts can mean the difference between "Oh, great deal, I'll buy now" and "I'll wait a bit" to the seller.

Quote:
0.01 ISK saves you and every other industrialist money.

Not necessarily. If you have to babysit your orders in order to always be at the top of the list, then you're not out there working on other deals that could be more profitable. So really, you're costing every other industrialist money. Again, it depends on the item being sold.

Quote:
It's idiots like you that make my stock lose its worth by hundreds of millions of isk just because you want a fast sale.

Fast sales are good, really good, because it means you now have freed-up capital to be used in other sales.

One concept traders don't usually consider is that of turn over. If your inventory sits in escrow while you're playing the 0.01 ISK game, it's not working very hard. I'd much rather have 2-3% margin daily than 10% margin weekly.

Quote:
I'm doing undercutts always with 0.01 isk to make the game terrible for others. It's the iWin button

I love people like you (and bots), who blindly make 0.01 ISK changes, because that can actually be used offensively.

If I know I'm dealing with someone who will 0.01 ISK at any cost, I'll drive the price of the item down to almost 0 margin. Then I'll scoop up my competitor's entire inventory and resell it at a higher price.

I've been thinking about doing the reverse as well. But up a buy order, drive the price up fighting with the 0.01 ISKers, then offload my entire inventory of that item on them.

Quote:
This is the type of situation that causes the prices of items to drop 15% overnight

Again, this can be used to your advantage. If a price war breaks out between a 0.01 ISKer and a deep under cutter, prices can drop significantly and more importantly, quickly. But that's usually limited to a single region. If you see something like this, then get an alt in another trading hub, and see what the price of the item is there. You may be able to buy at retail and make huge profits.

Case in point, a price war broke out in Jita on Hulks a while back, and the price dropped to 310M. However, price in other hubs hadn't caught up yet, so Hulks were still selling at the 350M range. I bought two, hauled them, and made 70M in about 15 mins. By the time I made it back to Jita, cheap Hulks were gone.

TL;DR: Both tactics are valid. You just have to do a bit of analysis to determine which one will be more profitable in the trade situation you're in.
Rote515
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2012-05-04 22:46:41 UTC
karesuto wrote:
All day from downtime last night some bugger has been underr cutting all my sales by a single isk >.<. I know this is apart of eve but come on a single isk is a pain in the arse.

If you are going to do it, do it right. I drop my prices over this guy by around 100,000 isk but he still drops by 1

bit of a run down
I placed some items up for 4.7 mil this person whent 4.699.99, I droped to 4.6 they went 4.599.999 and so forth.

Gaa one dam isk


Haven't read the rest of this thread, but do it the easy way lower a few of your sell orders to below buy order prices if its a poorly written bot/stupid human he will lower his, then buy all of his then profit?
Roel Yento
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2012-05-04 23:21:07 UTC
A couple of points I wanted to talk about from previous posters.

On driving out competition: Yes you can drive out competition but competition will come back and usually some of the same competators will return. I for one wait till margins improve then get back into trading the item. Why cut your profit by millions or more to drive out competator for a few weeks and make minimal isk then have to deal with them again when margins improve? Making 465,000 per hurricane only works if you sell tons of hurricanes a week. If you only have 10 or so, you are better off with more competition but selling a few a week for a few mil profit each.

On undercutting sales big: Don't do it unless driving someone elses prices down to buy them out and relist for higher or you are working on high volume sales and lower margin returns trading plan. If you undercut huge for low volume sales you just hurt yourself and everyone else.

On .01 isking: If buy and sell orders are moving well at their prices, don't do drastic cuts or over pay. Others will keep bidding until you ruin the market for yourself and them. The guy that stockpiled supplies will capitalize on you, market will crash and someone will buy up everything for cheap.

When to pay higher than highest bid order: If buying items and want to fill your order fast then this is an effective way of doing it. I do this if I am moving items to another region to sell for a lot more. Another thing to look at is if product is moving sales wise. If no one is filling buy orders, placing a buy order that you can relist for a profit and people will actually sell to you works too.

People that truly mess market up with no plan: New traders and people that make most their money else where cause the biggest issue here. OP sounds like he is new to trading in eve and thinks undercutting big is real trading. While it is aggressive, it fails if it isn't part of a strategy. The biggest problem traders are those that mine and produce items themselves but forget to calculate time spent+mineral value+manufacturing cost+bpc/bpo value invested+tax/brokers fees. Minerals are always worth what they can be sold at not what you bought them at also. if you would make more selling minerals at their current price compared to making an item and selling it, you are better off selling the minerals. The next big issue people are those that made money missioning or some other way that tried market pvp, failed and are now liquidating their supplies since they are done trying the market.

Investing lots of money for little returns: This will depend on your wallet size but why invest billions to make 50 or so million isk when you can find another product and invest billions but make hundreds of millions off it? Basically the amount you invest in one item should give you worthwhile gains. If more money can be made in another item for same amount invested. Go for the one that makes you more isk. All these decisions should be based off market trends and how often you can update orders or what your trading plan plays best to.

Just my .02 isk and then some.
Wigglez Ravvbon
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#53 - 2012-05-05 04:43:22 UTC
Howdy,

I'm a fairly new trader, but I'd like to chime in here a bit.


There's no such thing as the "bigger man" in trading. Only took me one trade to realize that .01 is the norm, i thought it was nicer to not do that. Like I said, first trade.

It's like that in RL and as it is in Eve.
"We will not be undersold", 3.99 vs 3.97

Destroying the profit margin is annoying, but doesn't deter me. I feel like you're just hurting everyone and yourself. I don't feel doing that deters any competition. I can't attest to everyone, but it doesn't drive me away. I just keep an eye on it and wait for it to bounce back.

If somebody undercuts me, but has very little to sell or buy, I just let him go, to see what happens. If people start undercutting him, then I step in again.

I'm a believer in the get in get out philosophy of trading.

I don't believe that people with a lot of isk to spend necessarily wait for the better deal. If they have a lot of isk to throw around then a slight increase isn't going bother them. Or a massive increase to me, might only be a slight increase to them. It's all relative.

Just an insight into the workings of one noob trader..

I do have a question though.
I noticed sometimes there will be a sell order for the same price as a buy order. I snatch it right up, but why does this happen?
qDoctor Strangelove
Doomheim
#54 - 2012-05-05 06:50:38 UTC
Mars Theran wrote:
Eddie Laydon wrote:
karesuto wrote:

I drop my prices over this guy by around 100,000 isk but he still drops by 1


you're a moron


I'd like to contest that.

Lets say we have one guy with 4* 4'000'000 ISK items on market and fifteen guys .01 ISK him, with the total of their product being something like 42000 items. Now, the guy who got .01 ISKed over 4 items managed to sell one of them before getting .01 ISKed and has 3 items left, decides to cut the crap and sell his items for 3'900'000 ISK ea.

...now those guys who .01 ISKed him, managed to sell 15 items in the interim and suddenly their sales stop abruptly as 1 of his items sells, so they .01 ISK him again before he manages to clear out the last 2 items and now they're selling ~42000 items for >100K less than they were originally.

Some simple math:

The guy selling sells 2 items, (and eventually all 4), for 4.0 + 3.9, and we'll say 2*3.8 million, making 15.5 million ISK back from these items he no longer needs, at somewhat less than standard market prices.

The 15 guys selling ~42K items drop there prices from an original amount of ~4.1 million to 4 million, sell 15 items at 100K loss for an average loss of 1.5 million, then drop their prices again by another 100K to 3.9 million, 0.01 ISKing him again, and selling more stock at what is now a 200K loss for an unknown period before he finally sells his last 2 items and gets out.

Who's the moron?


Now, THIS is wisdom.
I undercut by hundreds of thousand or millions if/when I need to unload a few items.
People that are in the market with huge piles (days of jita consumption) really really should let my order ride below theirs until mine clears.
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#55 - 2012-05-05 15:31:53 UTC
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
Mars Theran wrote:
Eddie Laydon wrote:
karesuto wrote:

I drop my prices over this guy by around 100,000 isk but he still drops by 1


you're a moron


I'd like to contest that.

Lets say we have one guy with 4* 4'000'000 ISK items on market and fifteen guys .01 ISK him, with the total of their product being something like 42000 items. Now, the guy who got .01 ISKed over 4 items managed to sell one of them before getting .01 ISKed and has 3 items left, decides to cut the crap and sell his items for 3'900'000 ISK ea.

...now those guys who .01 ISKed him, managed to sell 15 items in the interim and suddenly their sales stop abruptly as 1 of his items sells, so they .01 ISK him again before he manages to clear out the last 2 items and now they're selling ~42000 items for >100K less than they were originally.

Some simple math:

The guy selling sells 2 items, (and eventually all 4), for 4.0 + 3.9, and we'll say 2*3.8 million, making 15.5 million ISK back from these items he no longer needs, at somewhat less than standard market prices.

The 15 guys selling ~42K items drop there prices from an original amount of ~4.1 million to 4 million, sell 15 items at 100K loss for an average loss of 1.5 million, then drop their prices again by another 100K to 3.9 million, 0.01 ISKing him again, and selling more stock at what is now a 200K loss for an unknown period before he finally sells his last 2 items and gets out.

Who's the moron?


You're not showing a loss, you're showing less profits. You don't lose money by making less than a fictional number. All goods only have a price when they sell. In your example, the people with 42000 units to sell would most likely just wait out 4 items if it's that drastic of an undercut. But please, keep making up totally random examples to try and fit your argument. It's not like if the guy with 4 items had simply undercut by 0.01 he wouldn't have sold his first anyways, right? Oh yeah, he would have, and had made extra profit.




It's not random. I've been trying to sell stuff in Jita for the past 2 weeks and can't get rid of a few simple items because of this. We're talking 54 sell orders up here, undercut drastically and sometimes marginally 2-3 times a week and I'm still getting 0.01 ISKed by anywhere from 3-20 other sellers within a day of making the price cuts to beat them.

Frankly, it happens all the time and it has been like this for as long as I can remember. That's about 5-1/2 years of remembering in case you're wondering. Things might change depending on location, but not that much.

I was one of the first, (probably the first), person to set up a market for the missioners in Arnon, but despite a good first week there, I was only good for a week before everyone else showed up and flooded the markets with sell orders that undercut some of mine so drastically I would have been selling for less than 50% of cost to compete with them. Shortly after, they were well in control of the market and I couldn't sell a thing so I gave up and moved out.

That was when I actively flew around empire and bought stuff where it was lowest, then flew it to a location where it was selling well at higher prices or in caes like Arnon, much needed on the market. I don't do that anymore, but I've still got stuff I've been trying to sell for over a year now that just keeps getting 0.01 ISKed.

Mind you, I leave it alone for a week at a time rather than constantly undercutting like they do. Sometimes I just leave the orders up for months and don't bother even looking too. There's not much point in my experience, as it's likely I change the price and it gets beat before anything sells, like usual.

TL;DR: So, to put it bluntly, I've been doing this off and on for years in every corner of empire and experiencing this the whole time. There is nothing random about it, so **** off.

zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
Johnny Frecko
Violence is the Answer
Wormhole Society
#56 - 2012-05-05 15:46:44 UTC
@ mars(the above post)

Who's "They"?
You keep refering to "them" and how "they" ruined your market in arnon.

There is no THEM, It's tons of people just like you. some with more patience, some without.
I'm still trading in systems people think are useless. Good isk to be made.

You sound like you're sad they took away your isk fountain of no competition.
That's how it works in every market.
You think it would be better if everyone would undercut by 100K?
Markets would heal MUCH faster, keeping people with LOTS of sales, at 0% margins. How is this good?
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#57 - 2012-05-05 16:06:55 UTC
@Johnny Frecko: No, not sad at all. Was a bit irritated at the time, but you've got to understand that I was working with limited capital at the time and I essentially got tromped into the ground by people with unlimited ISK selling at well under value on a great many items. Most of what I was selling was Meta 0 to Meta 3 items used in mission running like you would find in the Epic Arc.

I'm not upset about any of it anymore, but I do get a little pieved when someone accuses me of making stuff up or talking out of my arse like the guy I quoted above did. They is just a reference to the myriad of other sellers and traders out there. I can't name anyone specifically because they are quite often anonymous as far as I'm concerned, but you already knew that.

So, there is a them and a they. An anonymous group of people that are doing something is a 'them' or 'they.'

Oh, and it is not how it works in every market, and you'd know that if you popped down to the store. Go to any one of a hundred stores and compare priices. They will all be in around the same price; some marginally more and some marginally less than average, but all the stores will be selling their product.

It is basically how it works on ebay and on various other sites where things are sold competatively against things purchase from the same site in the same categories, but that is not all markets.

I'm also not saying that everyone should undercut by 10, 20, or even 100K, but I think that should be obvious as my first post was regarding 3-4 items some guy was trying to flog quickly so they could clear out some hangar space, and not 200, or 1000, or even 10-15000 of those items as you see on many other sell orders.

Fact is, except in a rare few instances I can think of, 2-3 items will be undercut even by sellers with 10000 items of the same type when they are selling well below average and with the intent of clearing fast by selling to otherwise picky or hesitant buyers looking to save ISK.

That is not an example of a whole market; it's just an example of some few people here and there that seem to have the ability to crash a whole market just by putting up 3 items. Logically speaking, even on ebay, someone will see an opportunity to profit by that, and will buy those items up, add them to theirs to resell for their current asking price. Sometimes that happens in EVE, but often it doesn't.
zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
Johnny Frecko
Violence is the Answer
Wormhole Society
#58 - 2012-05-05 16:29:05 UTC
You are both right and wrong.

Prices in stores aren't lowered and feverishly fought over. For many reasons, but mainly a few:

1)Even with high margins, Updating prices in a store costs alot of money, time and effort.
2)traveling costs money, so if i need to buy something at 1$ extra because it's 20 minutes closer, i'd buy it here. thus my close store has no need to lower prices, they're already selling.
3)perfect information - Most stores don't *know* the exact price of every item in every store, they calculate their own margins based on volume moved.
4)Stores know that if they battle it out to 0% margins, they'll just end with the same market-share but with much less profit. Which in theory is the basis of all economic activity, in reality people don't like that.

There are many more, but let's stick to those. And let's see how eve addresses them

1)Updating prices is cheap to almost 0, and can be done from anywhere in the region.
2)Traveling in eve is free, most people consider their traveling time to be free aswell(wrong, but still they do).
even if time was money, traveling in a region doesn't take TOO much time, and is still free.
3)In eve you know the exact price of all the other sellers and buyers in the region, Combine 1+2 and game mechanics and you get an incentive to be the top order. RL stores can't act like that, because even if updating information was free, they wouldn't know which price to pick.
4)this is a tricky one, as it's the reason why some people don't fight big undercutters. I much rather let you sell your 4 items and move along than forcing me to bring down my prices. If i see that you bring 4 items at a time all the time, I'll fight you, else i'll ignore you.

Now as to people underselling you below mineral/value price. This is easy to explain:
1) Some people have no idea what their items are worth and are willing to sell at all costs(or profit).
2)some people bought their items somewhere else for ALOT less, they can afford to lose an extra % margin.
a price that would make you lose, would still bring THEM a profit.(the big evil THEM).

The reason i say there is no "them" is because while they are annonymos, They are not coordinated. "Them" sounds like an organization, when it's actually just the public being public.


WALL O TEXT, sorry.
Johnny
Debiru
Universal Fleet Operations
#59 - 2012-05-05 19:03:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Debiru
If you're babysitting your orders with the same character that you do your production/missioning/incursions/etc, than you're doing it wrong. I have two alts that handle all of my production for me, and my main handles market babysitting while I wait for wartargets to undock Dodixie. I'm using my alts for money making, I'm using my main for the combat he'd be doing anyway, all while babysitting my market orders, thus losing no efficiency because I'm using my characters for separate and fitting tasks. As for those who only have one character, if they are in production it's in there interest to check orders every hour anyway because one-character players usually have lower amounts of ISK available as a result, and thus need the sales quicker so they can reinvest. For traders, you need more than one character to do it effective anyway, and since you can have 3 characters per account you can easily swap characters a few times every hour to effectively babysit while also finding new deals elsewhere.

Meili Jiang wrote:

Fast sales are good, really good, because it means you now have freed-up capital to be used in other sales.

One concept traders don't usually consider is that of turn over. If your inventory sits in escrow while you're playing the 0.01 ISK game, it's not working very hard. I'd much rather have 2-3% margin daily than 10% margin weekly.

This is quite true, and I very much agree with this part of your post. Selling fast is as important as selling high, and those two should be combined. A balance has to be made though, to get fast sales without crashing market prices and lowering the sales you'll make in the future on the items you make with the now-liquid ISK. The best way to accomplish this is to play the 0.01 ISK game while also offering some of your batch, or other types of goods, to corp/alliance members at below-market price, or on the bulk trade list, or by advertising an ordering system where people can buy from you directly and not off market. "Building-to-order" deal.


Meili Jiang wrote:
Again, this can be used to your advantage. If a price war breaks out between a 0.01 ISKer and a deep under cutter, prices can drop significantly and more importantly, quickly. But that's usually limited to a single region. If you see something like this, then get an alt in another trading hub, and see what the price of the item is there. You may be able to buy at retail and make huge profits.

Case in point, a price war broke out in Jita on Hulks a while back, and the price dropped to 310M. However, price in other hubs hadn't caught up yet, so Hulks were still selling at the 350M range. I bought two, hauled them, and made 70M in about 15 mins. By the time I made it back to Jita, cheap Hulks were gone.

Please reread my post. I covered this and pointed out that, if that is the intention it's a valid, and very useful, tactic. Unfortunately, the OP in this thread is not doing that, and doesn't know the benefits of it, he simply thinks doing an undercut of anything less than 100,000 ISK is stupid and somehow abusing game mechanics... Which makes me cry for the new era of industrialists coming to EVE.
Cosmic Tycoon
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#60 - 2012-05-06 18:35:47 UTC
I'm a 00.1 isker.

I don't chop off 100k because it's ridiculous, it ruins the margins and EVERYONE loses out. Atleast with the isk game there's some competition and higher profit yields. EIther way your competition simply MUST sell the stock you're also selling so they'll only match your price too, particulary when their build and buy cost was probably very similar to yours anyway.

Sometimes you can see an item yield 5M then some fool wants to make a quick profit and slashes it by 500k and before you know it that you force 10 other people to do the same thing and the profit potential is gone and the item reverts back to a standard price.

I've been doing this for years casually and made endless billions, I know for a fact I'd be worse off slashing prices by 100k each time. I would have to compensate by building and selling at a faster rate which I wouldn't be able to do.