These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Hulks
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Frau Leinsmarch
Mimics
#61 - 2012-04-30 19:37:42 UTC
Ok, lets just make this clear, CCP doesn't want you mining on your own in high-sec. CCP wants you to join a corp/alliance and go mine in groups in low-sec, null-sec & wormspace.

CCP doesn't want you to be 100% safe all the time, this isn't 'Hello Kitty Mining Club Online', this is 'Eve Ultimate PvP Sandbox Online'. If you want to make money, join a decent corp & get out of high-sec. In fact, I would probably consider high-sec as one of the most dangerous spaces out there.
Bunnie Hop
Bunny Knights
#62 - 2012-04-30 19:45:16 UTC
Frau Leinsmarch wrote:
Ok, lets just make this clear, CCP doesn't want you mining on your own in high-sec. CCP wants you to join a corp/alliance and go mine in groups in low-sec, null-sec & wormspace.

CCP doesn't want you to be 100% safe all the time, this isn't 'Hello Kitty Mining Club Online', this is 'Eve Ultimate PvP Sandbox Online'. If you want to make money, join a decent corp & get out of high-sec. In fact, I would probably consider high-sec as one of the most dangerous spaces out there.


So you speak for CCP now. Show a link to where they have stated anything you just represented on their behalf.
Infinite Force
#63 - 2012-04-30 19:56:14 UTC
Frau Leinsmarch wrote:
Ok, lets just make this clear, CCP doesn't want you mining on your own in high-sec. CCP wants you to join a corp/alliance and go mine in groups in low-sec, null-sec & wormspace.

CCP doesn't want you to be 100% safe all the time, this isn't 'Hello Kitty Mining Club Online', this is 'Eve Ultimate PvP Sandbox Online'. If you want to make money, join a decent corp & get out of high-sec. In fact, I would probably consider high-sec as one of the most dangerous spaces out there.

Troll Alert - 2/10, but okay, I'll bite ---

To quote myself from post #21 -
Infinite Force wrote:
I think what I like most about these threads are the amount of tears from the PvP'rs and the Gankers as soon as the Industrial types (and even from some that aren't) start asking for a little more defense on their ships!

Give the Hulk more PG, more CPU, more tank!

Let the PvP / Ganker Tears flow.

To answer Frau's "assumed" arguments.

  1. You assume that the people asking for improvements / updates are all solo people wanting to afk mine. I can assure you they are not.
  2. If a Corp of industrialists want to mine and "own their own high-sec" they are within their sandbox-rights to do so.
  3. If CCP _only_ wanted you to mine in those other areas, there would be no belts, grav sites or any other rock in high-sec.
  4. Stop assuming that everyone that mines _wants_ to make isk. At times, I mine just because I can. I don't make my ISK from mining.


Keep on crying Frau, it only fills the bucket.

HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud

http://tinyurl.com/95zmyzw - The only way to go!
Immortis Vexx
Onyx Moon Industries
#64 - 2012-04-30 21:17:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Immortis Vexx
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Immortis Vexx wrote:
:Star Wars analogy:

I suppose you have a point. The Hulk at least needs the ability to be more tanky. I disagree with an overall HP buff, but being able to somewhat easily fit a MSE makes sense for such a big ship.

To clarify: I am not fine with an untanked / active tanked Hulk being able to survive suicide ganks. I am perfectly fine with the Hulk being able to set up a dissuasive tank to make most suicide ganks unfeasible, without giving up too much yield. This is to promote actively protecting yourself and HTFU rather than easy-mode infinite mining.

I happen to think that it can do that now, even if the numbers look quirky compared to AFs. IMO Hulks need more agility and and a bit more fittings, not more raw tank. They (and many of the other barges) are not balanced, but they're not OMGWTFBROKEN, either. Ed: and I should mention, it does not merit the giant amount of tears and bitching for buffing it.


Agreed. You CAN equip a medium shield booster (Extender) to it but don't expect to be able to use all three mining lasers if you do. Honestly, its got the mid slots to make it a decent shield tank, it just doesn't have the PG to equip anything to it.

Vexx

Edit: meant to say extender, not booster.
TWHC Assistant
#65 - 2012-04-30 22:57:33 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
TWHC Assistant wrote:
One can tell the difference between a player who knows what he is doing and one who hides behind his guns. [...] I would really like to see a discussion with facts and good arguments and none of this troll crap.

Then perhaps you should stop. *******. trolling.

Just stop crying. Nobody wants to read it.

You have no idea and you people always turn any Hulk/mining thread into this attention seeking crap about how people do not get it. Have you ever only for once considered that miners do get you, but you bore them to death, Captain Obvious?

Every miner, who is not exactly a rookie, knows that afk mining is dumb and they risk their ships. How many times do you want to keep running that bit of wisdom down the Internet? You stop. Rookies tell one another the basics on the help chat during their first week!

Fact is you need to warp out as soon as a destroyer enters the belt. A Hulk, fully tank might want to stay, but as soon as two destroyers show up does everyone need to warp out. All you then need to do is to take a destroyer and fly through every belt. Give it a try and watch what the players will do. You will see quite a few miners do warp off just as you want them to. It is the consequence and gankers now chase miners out of the belts for laughs when they cannot find anyone to gank. This is where we currently are with mining.

Start catching up when you can.
Haulie Berry
#66 - 2012-04-30 23:10:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
People keep bringing up the price, as if it's somehow relevant. Prices fluctuate with supply and demand, both of the item itself and the raw materials.

Hulks are particularly expensive right now. Should their EHP go down when the price corrects, too?

It's an utterly ******** line of reasoning. Hull price != tank - if it did, interceptors would have tanks that embarrass T1 cruisers, but they don't, because that's not how it works, so please stop pretending like it is.

Oh, look, Dramiels are more expensive than Drakes. Better give them 100K+ EHP. Roll
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#67 - 2012-04-30 23:33:25 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
Immortis Vexx wrote:


[Hawk, testhawk1]

2x Medium Shield Extender II
2x Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Small Shield Extender II

Damage Control II

2x Small Core Defense Field Extender I

This hawk has 26,853 EHP, 56.25 power grid, and 237.5 CPU. Granted, there are no weapons on this frig but its still JUST A FRIGATE. This is the level of flexibility that other ships have. Shouldn't I be able to tank a hulk even slightly better than a frig? Both are tech 2 ships and as such should have SOME extra survivability.

I built a hulk from the ground up putting tank on before any strip miners and seeing what I would have left over afterwards. what I got was a hulk that had 32,472 EHP but was only able to equip 2 strip miners. This fit has only 17.4% more tank than the frig that I displayed above. Should a hulk really run with 2/3 of its mining capability to out tank a frigate by 17.4%?

Vexx


That Hawk is literally useless. Who gives a damn whether it can get an extreme tank? It cannot maneuver, it cannot point, it cannot kill anything. All it can do is die. And even with its extreme fit, it will die if anyone tackles it.

I have said numerous times that the T2 mining ships need more fitting space, but comparing them to T2 assault ships that are totally useless for any purpose is not a valid comparison.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#68 - 2012-04-30 23:37:56 UTC
TWHC Assistant wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
TWHC Assistant wrote:
One can tell the difference between a player who knows what he is doing and one who hides behind his guns. [...] I would really like to see a discussion with facts and good arguments and none of this troll crap.

Then perhaps you should stop. *******. trolling.

Just stop crying. Nobody wants to read it.

You have no idea and you people always turn any Hulk/mining thread into this attention seeking crap about how people do not get it. Have you ever only for once considered that miners do get you, but you bore them to death, Captain Obvious?

CryCryCry
I apologize that my intensely self-serving posting of facts and honest debate about the need to rebalance the Hulk bores you, and that my extremely narcissistic and self-promoting posts are classified by you as "crying". Perhaps you didn't realize that forums are a place for opposing views to clash?

I am trying to offer productive arguments with points and counterpoints, and you resort to namecalling and bitching. Please tell me who is the troll here.
TWHC Assistant wrote:

Every miner, who is not exactly a rookie, knows that afk mining is dumb and they risk their ships. How many times do you want to keep running that bit of wisdom down the Internet? You stop. Rookies tell one another the basics on the help chat during their first week!

Fact is you need to warp out as soon as a destroyer enters the belt. A Hulk, fully tank might want to stay, but as soon as two destroyers show up does everyone need to warp out. All you then need to do is to take a destroyer and fly through every belt. Give it a try and watch what the players will do. You will see quite a few miners do warp off just as you want them to. It is the consequence and gankers now chase miners out of the belts for laughs when they cannot find anyone to gank. This is where we currently are with mining.

Start catching up when you can.


1) Keep directional scan up at maximum distance. Scan.
2) Repeat step (1) every few seconds until you see one or more destroyers on scan.
3) Hit "Align" to your favorite celestial or safe spot.
4) Swap directional scan range to 10,000,000 m and spam the heck out of it.
5) See a destroyer on scan? Get ready to hit "warp". See two? Get doubly ready.
6) See a destroyer land? Warp. You are now safe.

Bonus points: get a buddy, and have one of you watch max scan range, and one of you watch short scan range.

If all miners knew this and did this, it is inconceivable how Hulks would be lost to suicide ganks, except in freak accidents. The Hulk's tank is completely irrelevant to the above. This is why I am proposing more agility rather than more tank, so people who are actually active about keeping themselves safe can do so more easily.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#69 - 2012-04-30 23:40:39 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
Bunnie Hop wrote:
Frau Leinsmarch wrote:
Ok, lets just make this clear, CCP doesn't want you mining on your own in high-sec. CCP wants you to join a corp/alliance and go mine in groups in low-sec, null-sec & wormspace.

CCP doesn't want you to be 100% safe all the time, this isn't 'Hello Kitty Mining Club Online', this is 'Eve Ultimate PvP Sandbox Online'. If you want to make money, join a decent corp & get out of high-sec. In fact, I would probably consider high-sec as one of the most dangerous spaces out there.


So you speak for CCP now. Show a link to where they have stated anything you just represented on their behalf.


"EVE is not designed to look like a cold, dark, unforgiving world. It's designed to BE a cold, dark, unforgiving world". - CCP Wrangler.

"EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for." CCP Wrangler

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#70 - 2012-05-01 00:16:49 UTC
I think Hulks should get an improved tank right at the same time that ALL mining is moved out of High Sec.
TWHC Assistant
#71 - 2012-05-01 00:31:26 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
I apologize ...

Start to read what I wrote. Stop being so full or yourself.
Immortis Vexx
Onyx Moon Industries
#72 - 2012-05-01 00:37:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Immortis Vexx
FT Diomedes wrote:
Immortis Vexx wrote:


[Hawk, testhawk1]

2x Medium Shield Extender II
2x Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Small Shield Extender II

Damage Control II

2x Small Core Defense Field Extender I

This hawk has 26,853 EHP, 56.25 power grid, and 237.5 CPU. Granted, there are no weapons on this frig but its still JUST A FRIGATE. This is the level of flexibility that other ships have. Shouldn't I be able to tank a hulk even slightly better than a frig? Both are tech 2 ships and as such should have SOME extra survivability.

I built a hulk from the ground up putting tank on before any strip miners and seeing what I would have left over afterwards. what I got was a hulk that had 32,472 EHP but was only able to equip 2 strip miners. This fit has only 17.4% more tank than the frig that I displayed above. Should a hulk really run with 2/3 of its mining capability to out tank a frigate by 17.4%?

Vexx


That Hawk is literally useless. Who gives a damn whether it can get an extreme tank? It cannot maneuver, it cannot point, it cannot kill anything. All it can do is die. And even with its extreme fit, it will die if anyone tackles it.

I have said numerous times that the T2 mining ships need more fitting space, but comparing them to T2 assault ships that are totally useless for any purpose is not a valid comparison.


Sigh, really? That's the argument you came up with? "The ship sucks and cant dps so it shouldn't count for anything" Well, here ya go...

[Retribution, Ret1]

4x Gatling Pulse Laser II (Conflagration S)

400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
2x Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

2x Small Trimark Armor Pump I
24k EHP 91 DPS

[Jaguar, jag1]

3x 200mm AutoCannon II (Hail S)

2x Medium Shield Extender II
2x Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Damage Control II
Reactor Control Unit II
Co-Processor II
Tracking Enhancer I

Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I
24K EHP with 61DPS

I am pretty sure that I have more in my back pocket if you want to see them. These fits have nil gank but guess what, they are still work (failfit imho, but still). Next you are going to tell me that all assault frigs suck and can't be used as a viable comparison. Perhaps I should compare the hulk to an Ibis to get a comparison that works for you?


Vexx


EDIT: This isn't about min/maxing its about the fact that a FRIGATE can match the tank of something much, much larger. It's fracken stupid! (I love BSG)... Anyway, either frigs and everything else needs a nerf (lol) or hulk needs more PG. BTW: I've said it before but some of the frigs I posted above have MORE powergrid than a hulk. That doesn't seem wrong to you?
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#73 - 2012-05-01 00:58:03 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
None of your fits are viable PvP fits. It doesn't matter that you can make an assault ship with a lot of EHP. The ships you are posting as comparisons are totally useless.

A frigate without a propulsion module and a point is pretty useless - unless you are fitting a Catalyst to gank an untanked Hulk. Blink

Even if you can come up with a fit with a propulsion module, it still doesn't answer the question of why it is relevant that an Assault Frig can have more EHP than a Hulk. An assault frigate can also have more EHP than a gank-fitted, active tanked, Tengu.

In numerous threads around here, people have posted Hulk fits that are only 6.7% less optimal, yet still cannot be ganked by a Catalyst. That is a viable highsec mining fit. It can survive the average, window-licking stupid, effortless gank attempt. If someone wants to kill you, they still can - they just need more ships. And effort...

Either way, I'll say again, I agree that the Exhumers need more PG and CPU (and agility).

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#74 - 2012-05-01 00:58:57 UTC
TWHC Assistant wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
I apologize ...

Start to read what I wrote. Stop being so full or yourself.

Petrus Blackshell wrote:
and you resort to namecalling

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Salo Aldeland
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#75 - 2012-05-01 01:08:18 UTC
I thought it was perfectly clear from my first week on Eve that barges and exhumers weren't combat ships. That you need to make arrangements ahead of time to keep from getting blown up. That if you were caught in one and were being shot at, your defenses have already failed. This is a difficult concept for some?
Haulie Berry
#76 - 2012-05-01 01:16:57 UTC
Immortis Vexx wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Immortis Vexx wrote:


[Hawk, testhawk1]

2x Medium Shield Extender II
2x Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Small Shield Extender II

Damage Control II

2x Small Core Defense Field Extender I

This hawk has 26,853 EHP, 56.25 power grid, and 237.5 CPU. Granted, there are no weapons on this frig but its still JUST A FRIGATE. This is the level of flexibility that other ships have. Shouldn't I be able to tank a hulk even slightly better than a frig? Both are tech 2 ships and as such should have SOME extra survivability.

I built a hulk from the ground up putting tank on before any strip miners and seeing what I would have left over afterwards. what I got was a hulk that had 32,472 EHP but was only able to equip 2 strip miners. This fit has only 17.4% more tank than the frig that I displayed above. Should a hulk really run with 2/3 of its mining capability to out tank a frigate by 17.4%?

Vexx


That Hawk is literally useless. Who gives a damn whether it can get an extreme tank? It cannot maneuver, it cannot point, it cannot kill anything. All it can do is die. And even with its extreme fit, it will die if anyone tackles it.

I have said numerous times that the T2 mining ships need more fitting space, but comparing them to T2 assault ships that are totally useless for any purpose is not a valid comparison.


Sigh, really? That's the argument you came up with? "The ship sucks and cant dps so it shouldn't count for anything" Well, here ya go...

[Retribution, Ret1]

4x Gatling Pulse Laser II (Conflagration S)

400mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
2x Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

2x Small Trimark Armor Pump I
24k EHP 91 DPS

[Jaguar, jag1]

3x 200mm AutoCannon II (Hail S)

2x Medium Shield Extender II
2x Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Damage Control II
Reactor Control Unit II
Co-Processor II
Tracking Enhancer I

Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I
24K EHP with 61DPS

I am pretty sure that I have more in my back pocket if you want to see them.


Yes, please, continue posting completely pointless fits that have never been seen in the wild because they are awful to the point of being unusable.



Quote:

EDIT: This isn't about min/maxing its about the fact that a FRIGATE can match the tank of something much, much larger.


If your argument is that a completely unusable AF can match the tank of a Hulk, I will be glad to show you an unusable Hulk with about 50% more EHP than any AF you posted.

That aside, there is no uniform rule that size = EHP. Damnation can easily field EHP that dwarfs freighters and most/all battleships. Hictors can get some crazy EHP numbers, too. You know why? Because those ships were built for EHP, unlike Hulks, which are built for mining yield.
Bunnie Hop
Bunny Knights
#77 - 2012-05-01 05:14:11 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Bunnie Hop wrote:
Frau Leinsmarch wrote:
Ok, lets just make this clear, CCP doesn't want you mining on your own in high-sec. CCP wants you to join a corp/alliance and go mine in groups in low-sec, null-sec & wormspace.

CCP doesn't want you to be 100% safe all the time, this isn't 'Hello Kitty Mining Club Online', this is 'Eve Ultimate PvP Sandbox Online'. If you want to make money, join a decent corp & get out of high-sec. In fact, I would probably consider high-sec as one of the most dangerous spaces out there.


So you speak for CCP now. Show a link to where they have stated anything you just represented on their behalf.


"EVE is not designed to look like a cold, dark, unforgiving world. It's designed to BE a cold, dark, unforgiving world". - CCP Wrangler.

"EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for." CCP Wrangler


Not really there yet are you.
Tarn Kugisa
Kugisa Dynamics
#78 - 2012-05-01 05:19:47 UTC
TWHC Assistant wrote:
There have been many discussions about it before. What stands out, and it appears to be the only issue, is that the mining ships posses too little powergrid these days.

Newer industrial ships like the Noctis (250 PG) and Primea (175PG) have noticeably more powergrid than a Hulk (35PG). T2 transporters like the Mastodon and Bustard can easily be shield-tanked to about 50k eHP only by using their mid-slots, though they can go higher of course.

Neither the Noctis nor the Primea are particularly designed to operate in "deep space" as it is the case with the Hulk (see ship descriptions). The T2 transporters, which are designed for "deep space" and share a large cargo hold with the Hulk, do not have powergrid issues (200+ PG) either. Btw, it is not clear what exactly this "deep space" is, because no space is safe and one can be in a war anywhere.

Edit:
I forgot, there is another issue. The training time for going from a T1 Covetor to a T2 Hulk is far too short.

The training from a Teir 2 Tech 1 Retreiver is ~20 days to a Teir 3 Tech 1 Covetor if you don't have those skills to V

Either way, I'll fly my Rohk that
1. looks awesomer
2. can tank more
3. Costs less

Be polite. Be efficient. Have a plan to troll everyone you meet - KuroVolt
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#79 - 2012-05-01 05:50:24 UTC
Guys don't you hate it one your bulldozer doesn't handle like a sports car well having the armor plates of a tank and the fire power of a battalion? am i right or what?

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 
Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#80 - 2012-05-01 08:11:39 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:

There was nothing we could do to deter someone willing to die to kill us. Just like high sec in Eve. Except we didn't have clone vats and the insurance payout is a lot worse. Real life needs a buff.




You misunderstand .... in EVE the cops only take away the bomb after its allready killed you ... they dont actually even kill the criminal.

EvilI demand some judge dredd style action by concorde of annihilating the pod of the criminal scumbag !Evil