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Orbit locked down to 160km start Position

Author
Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-04-29 16:55:10 UTC
I was wondering if anyone knew why we are locked down to a starting orbit position of a max 160 KM ?
It appears if you are at warp range you can't orbit it.
Why is that ?

I am also wondering if anyone knows why we can't orbit a planet, moon, sun, etc ?

It would be nice to be able to orbit anything.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2012-04-29 17:38:27 UTC
I have no idea what you are talking about, regarding a "starting orbit position" ...

We can't orbit planets or moons because they are ... huge.

It's perfectly easy to orbit them manually in a fast ship, though.
Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-04-29 17:43:53 UTC
IF you warp to a star gate at say 200 km you will find you can't orbit the gate, as you are in in warp distance being 200 km from the gate.

I am wondering why that mechanic is in there ?

I realize you can do anything manually but I am wondering why CCP put the mechanics in place ?

Just one of those little things that would be nice but you can't do it and I presume there is a reason why.

Or maybe at one time there was a reason and it is no longer applicable.


Lola Humpsalot
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2012-04-29 18:01:07 UTC
I think you answered your own question, you can't orbit over warp range because of warp range...
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#5 - 2012-04-29 18:30:46 UTC
It probably is there for technical reasons. Maybe...
Skorpynekomimi
#6 - 2012-04-29 18:32:47 UTC
Maybe you just need to be able to head towards a specific point calculated from the object's position?

I don't doubt they've used something to avoid computing perfect circles.

Economic PVP

Kale Eledar
Venerated Industries
#7 - 2012-04-29 19:12:14 UTC
Exactly. My guess is Eve's orbit range may not have been designed at all, per-sé , but is merely an arbitrary limit CCP has imposed that is reflective of the mechanics, distances, speeds, and scales Eve uses. It probably naturally arose as upper bounds were set on ship gun and missile ranges. There are several illustrative examples we can use to highlight this point via thought experiments:

Suppose maximum ship speed was in the hundreds of km/sec range. Maximum orbit range would necessarily have to be larger to achieve the desired effect orbiting strategically gives the player.

Suppose guns were designed with extreme sniping styles in play (say 1000km) but with current average ship speeds in mind. Orbiting mechanics could be implemented at those ranges, but the advantages incurred by such maneouvres are greatly dimished due to the affects of parallax.

In addition, orbit mechanics between two moving objects in 3-dimensional space involves complicated vector calculus (Frenet-Serret forumlas come to mind) making simplifying orbit mechanics as much as possible ideal in a game where mass, acceleration, resistances, drones, and other objects must also be calculated by the server simultaneously. Setting an upper bound keeps things from being needlessly complicated (and silly). This is not to say that CCP doesn't use simplifying models to reduce workload on programmers (indeed, this is the hallmark of a good designer - see ship trail development) but Eve is probably compuationally intense as MMOs go (using SI units of mass and physical equations as well as all movement directions). Why bother including the ability to orbit planets? It behooves CCP to omit mechanics only few would enjoy using that have dubious strategic value not already served by current mechanics (safe spots, etc).

Source: no life, grad school (haha)

First come smiles, then lies. Last is gunfire.

Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
#8 - 2012-04-29 19:38:14 UTC
I haven't tried lately, but you used to be able to righ-click the orbit button on the overview and set up to 1000km orbit

/c

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Trinity Six
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2012-04-29 19:56:01 UTC
My guess is that anything over warp range has the possibility of being off-grid, and if u go off grid while orbiting, u lose the orbit anchor.

I dunno, I'm just guessing.
Sirinda
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium
#10 - 2012-04-29 19:58:47 UTC
Orbiting a planet would be unrealistic, obviously.
Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#11 - 2012-04-29 21:06:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Simetraz
Alot of guesses but nobody appears to remember the rationel behind the mechanic.

So if we leave out moons and planets for a minute.

Would would be the impact of being able to warp say to 300 KM off the gate and being able to orbit at that distance.

And 200 km is well within gun range of some ships.

What impact would that have.

Just trying to find a reason.

CCP you could help and give us a answer, PLEASE.
Kale Eledar
Venerated Industries
#12 - 2012-04-29 21:15:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Kale Eledar
Simetraz wrote:
Alot of guesses but nobody appears to remember the rationel behind the mechanic.

So if we leave out moons and planets for a minute.

Would would be the impact of being able to warp say to 300 KM off the gate and being able to orbit at that distance.

And 200 km is well within gun range of some ships.

What impact would that have.

Just trying to find a reason.

CCP you could help and give us a answer, PLEASE.


Why do you want to be able to do it?

"just because I want to" won't work - every gameplay mechanic requires programming work. You have to consider CCP not thinking it's worth the ramifications of changing auto-abilities. it could have unforseen effects that they do not want to deal with if they don't have to.


Occam's razor!

First come smiles, then lies. Last is gunfire.

Vangelios
#13 - 2012-04-29 21:29:44 UTC
Kale Eledar wrote:


Orbiting mechanics could be implemented at those ranges, but the advantages incurred by such maneouvres are greatly dimished due to the affects of parallax.
...
Source: no life, grad school (haha)


I'm sorry, I understand you try to smart-post, but you need to recheck definition of "parallax".

... Each small candle Lights a corner of the dark...

Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-04-29 21:36:11 UTC
Kale Eledar wrote:
[

"just because I want to" won't work - every gameplay mechanic requires programming work. You have to consider CCP not thinking it's worth the ramifications of changing auto-abilities. it could have unforseen effects that they do not want to deal with if they don't have to.

Occam's razor!


I am afraid that answer doesn't cut it.
I have lost count how many times CCP has openly admitted a mechanic they put into the game was used for something totally different then what it was intended for.



Spy 21
Doomheim
#15 - 2012-04-29 22:29:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Spy 21
Chribba wrote:
I haven't tried lately, but you used to be able to righ-click the orbit button on the overview and set up to 1000km orbit

/c


Just tested this and it's still correct... the limit is 1000km not 160 km.

Dunno where OP is getting his info.

S

EDIT ... and the orbit button goes grey at 150km, not 160km.

Obfuscation for the WIN on page 3...

EdwardNardella
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-04-29 22:32:25 UTC
The mechanic is somewhat baffling. If you are 90KM from an object you can start orbiting it at 200KM but if you are 200KM from it you cannot start orbiting it.
Raiz Nhell
Tactically Challenged
The Initiative.
#17 - 2012-04-29 22:48:19 UTC
I think the OP is saying you can't start an orbit from more than 160km from the object.

So you can orbit at 1000km provided you start the orbit at less then 160km.

I can't say that I have ever been in a position where I want to start and orbit from more than 160km, better to manual pilot to hold the distance.

There is no such thing as a fair fight...

If your fighting fair you have automatically put yourself at a disadvantage.

Kale Eledar
Venerated Industries
#18 - 2012-04-29 22:49:00 UTC
I'l try to keep future posts less ranty and clearer .

Vangelios wrote:
Kale Eledar wrote:


Orbiting mechanics could be implemented at those ranges, but the advantages incurred by such maneouvres are greatly dimished due to the affects of parallax.
...
Source: no life, grad school (haha)


I'm sorry, I understand you try to smart-post, but you need to recheck definition of "parallax".



Everyone should try to smart-post! Thank you for ignoring literally every other point I made, though.
(also, inb4 tl;dr)
However, I see how you could misintepret that as me thinking parallax is some sort of physical process or something (and using 'affect' accidentally probably didn't help). I merely meant that the primary reason people orbit  - to dictate range and exploit gun tracking, amongst others - becomes less important at extreme ranges. Your apparent motion becomes so small from the other ship's perspective that orbiting doesn't give you a notable advantage if you want to make it harder for them to track you. That is why railgun snipers at extreme ranges don't see their dps drop in a notable amount if they move while firing - their guns have no trouble tracking something that seems like it's barely moving.
I wouldn't have brought up parallax if we were talking about orbiting a pos tower for ***** and giggles, but I suppose I can use motion and tracking if you prefer that or think I mean it in an astronomical sense.

A ship orbiting you at 1km/sec  and at 1000km distance: An orbit that size has perimeter of 3141.59km, so it would take your enemy almost an hour to orbit you once. From your viewpoint, it takes them almost ten seconds to move 1/360th of a full orbit. 
Aka - they appear to be barely moving. That's all I was highlighting. Orbiting becomes tactically far less useful provided it's for tactical reasons.. So parallax was kind of relevant, but I hope that clears it up.

Simetraz wrote:
Kale Eledar wrote:
[

"just because I want to" won't work - every gameplay mechanic requires programming work. You have to consider CCP not thinking it's worth the ramifications of changing auto-abilities. it could have unforseen effects that they do not want to deal with if they don't have to.

Occam's razor!


I am afraid that answer doesn't cut it.
I have lost count how many times CCP has openly admitted a mechanic they put into the game was used for something totally different then what it was intended for.




I gave you my main theory before which offered several ideas. I did qualify my post with "my guess is"; just offering my input. Plus, orbiting is kind of a physics thing that already exists...not something CCP invented. Including it in a space game makes sense, within reason, no?
The specific point at which you can't orbit may have had an original reason that became obsoleted, too - or they picked an arbitrary point.
 Utimately, CCP is the only thing that can answer your question with finality. I am sorry the previous one isn't good enough for you, but you haven't answered my question, either, and it's not a difficult one to answer, I'd like to think! :)

EdwardNardella brings up an interesting point, though. That is odd, certainly.

First come smiles, then lies. Last is gunfire.

Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#19 - 2012-04-29 22:50:27 UTC
Simetraz wrote:
IF you warp to a star gate at say 200 km you will find you can't orbit the gate, as you are in in warp distance being 200 km from the gate.

I am wondering why that mechanic is in there ?

I realize you can do anything manually but I am wondering why CCP put the mechanics in place ?

Just one of those little things that would be nice but you can't do it and I presume there is a reason why.

Or maybe at one time there was a reason and it is no longer applicable.




Just as an FYI, orbitting something at 150+ km is absolutely pointless. You could be moving at 10km/s and your transversal would still be a joke.
Oraac Ensor
#20 - 2012-04-29 23:33:01 UTC
Spy 21 wrote:
Chribba wrote:
I haven't tried lately, but you used to be able to righ-click the orbit button on the overview and set up to 1000km orbit

/c


Just tested this and it's still correct... the limit is 1000km not 160 km.

Dunno where OP is getting his info.

S

EDIT ... and the orbit button goes grey at 150km, not 160km.

OP isn't talking about orbiting distance, but the distance you are from the object at the time you wish to issue the orbit command (160 km is presumably a typo):
Simetraz wrote:
I was wondering if anyone knew why we are locked down to a starting orbit position of a max 160 KM ?
It appears if you are at warp range you can't orbit it.

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