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Angular Velocity
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Krasus Minor
Doomheim
#1 - 2012-04-28 19:07:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Krasus Minor
Hi all,

Apologies if this is the wrong forum but I'm a little confused about something. Searching only seemed to show me threads of people asking what angular velocity is.

If my understanding is correct, gun tracking is directly linked to angular velocity (in radians/second), so if you want to avoid someone's fire you can build a high angular velocity and orbit them.

Let us consider a situation involving two ships; a tornado and a drake.

The drake is happily running anomalies, stationary. The tornado pilot, being an evil mother warps to the anomaly with the intent to savage the drake. The tornado pilot has artillery, but also a 24km disruptor and MWDs towards the drake while firing before dropping into a stable 23km orbit.

Now if my understanding is correct, the drake being a completely 0ms stationary target should have an angular velocity to the tornado of 0.0r/s and gun tracking shouldn't come into the equation because the guns are constantly pointed at a stationary target (think of an AC-130 gunship from real life if you will. It circles the target constantly keeping the guns pointed at the same spot). Tracking shouldn't be an issue. Conversely the tornado would have a very high angular velocity to the drake since it is moving and, if the drake did have guns, they would likely run into tracking issues.

Despite this every single gun misses the target and the eve overview shows an angular velocity of 3x the tracking limit of the howitzers when I should theoretically be able to orbit at high speed while the guns point directly at the target without moving hammering it from the edge of point range?

Is Eve's physics completely borked? What have I misunderstood?

Thank you to any constructive help!

[EDIT] If you look at your ship model while doing this to a stationary target, you will notice that the guns stay in a fixed position without moving or 'tracking' anything.
Grouchy Smurf
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2012-04-28 19:33:58 UTC
You are moving at high speed.
Krasus Minor
Doomheim
#3 - 2012-04-28 19:43:25 UTC
Grouchy Smurf wrote:
You are moving at high speed.


Yes I am moving at high speed, but if the target is stationary and I am in a circular orbit, the guns will not have to move because they will constantly be pointing at the target.

Therefore, provided the target is stationary, my orbital velocity should not be a factor to the tracking of the weaponry.
Yahrr
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4 - 2012-04-28 19:46:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Yahrr
In Eve the orientation of the ship isn't used in the tracking formulas.
Luba Cibre
Global Song Setup
#5 - 2012-04-28 19:50:03 UTC
Quote:
Is Eve's physics completely borked? What have I misunderstood?

You misunderstood nothing. Eves physics aren't that great or correct.

"Nothing essential happens in the absence of noise." 
Grouchy Smurf
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2012-04-28 19:55:28 UTC
Krasus Minor wrote:
Yes I am moving at high speed


http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0910/eve-tracking101.swf

Page 4.
Krasus Minor
Doomheim
#7 - 2012-04-28 20:00:29 UTC
Grouchy Smurf wrote:
Krasus Minor wrote:
Yes I am moving at high speed


http://dl.eve-files.com/media/0910/eve-tracking101.swf

Page 4.


What you have just posted adds nothing, you completely misunderstand what I am referring to unlike the people above who appear to have confirmed that Eve's physics is incorrect.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#8 - 2012-04-28 20:14:52 UTC
Luba Cibre wrote:
Quote:
Is Eve's physics completely borked? What have I misunderstood?

You misunderstood nothing. Eves physics aren't that great or correct.


Yup. Eve uses instantaneous vector comparison for this sort of thing, essentially subtracting one vector from another. So your target's [0 0 0] is compared to whatever yours is by subtraction -- meaning that your velocity is equal to your angular velocity and your guns can't track.

This has been pointed out many, many times before but odds are poor that it will change in the near future. Maybe once they get all this spaceship stuff sorted out they'll revisit the physics engine, but for now you just have to learn to deal with it.
Cpt Arareb
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2012-04-28 20:27:49 UTC
Krasus Minor wrote:
Hi all,
Is Eve's physics completely borked?

Yes
TWHC Assistant
#10 - 2012-04-28 20:52:44 UTC
It has already been mentioned that tracking in EVE only depends on the ship movements and that the turrets have no actual movement.

Think of it as a problem between the ship's engine and the turret servos if it helps you to make sense. You would need to have very precise ship thrusters in order to keep your weapons pointing steadily at the same spot. Therefore, realistically would your turrets have to compensate for instabilities in your ship's thrusters if it was real space ships.

The formula for tracking and orbiting in EVE is this: orbit = speed / tracking

If your ship flies 500m/s and its weapons track with 0.3rad/s then the orbit should be 1667m or more.

When both ships are moving, which is often the case, do you need to use the speed difference of the ships. It results in a closer orbit. You can use the above formula to calculate a good, first orbit and set it as your default orbit distance. Then monitor the angular velocity and adjust the orbit distance as needed.
bubble trout
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2012-04-28 23:54:35 UTC
I have a hard time thinking of any physics aspect in eve that is even vaguely "realistic".
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#12 - 2012-04-29 00:45:37 UTC
Yahrr wrote:
In Eve the orientation of the ship isn't used in the tracking formulas.


This. It's because ships in Eve are points, not objects. So the tracking is based on the relative speed of the two points, not the rate of change of the angle between the two points.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2012-04-29 02:13:57 UTC
I noticed this as well and started a huge debate/argument in the help channel once because most people didn't understand what I was talking about. Essentially however it's true that the orientation of the ship isn't taken into account. It can't because the orientation of the ship is only clientside, and tracking has to be calculated from variables that pass between server and client (which would be position and velocity vectors).

Changing it to include orientation would be a step backward in my opinion because a battleship could then easily counter a fast-orbiting frigate by simply spinning their ship to match, and a fast-orbiting ship wouldn't have to contend with issues of tracking either.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#14 - 2012-04-29 04:09:03 UTC
Krasus Minor wrote:

Is Eve's physics completely borked? What have I misunderstood?



Let's see,

  • spaceships have a maximum speed instead of maximum acceleration
  • spaceships slow down when you turn off the engine instead of continuing at the same speed
  • large ships (with space for more advanced sensors) lock slower than small ships


... and so on.

I think your misunderstanding is of the nature of the game. It's not a spaceships in space simulator (it, at time, resembles a submarine warfare simulator, though), it's a game that's got its own rules that have very little to do with the laws of physics as we know them.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
ACE McFACE
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-04-29 06:14:44 UTC
Stop going so fast in your tornado

Now, more than ever, we need a dislike button.