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C4 Sites- Pair of RR tengu's?
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Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-04-26 15:28:23 UTC
I'll help with filling this forum with actual questions :)

So I have at least heard you can run C4 sites with 2 Tengu's. I think it was also recommended to have RR tengu's. I guess I am curious with a pair, why RR tengu's would be better? I can see with 3 or more, as you can have multiple RR on the person getting smacked.

But with only 2 I can't wrap my head around the benefits. Is the RR more efficient than local rep? Is it to counteract the fact that the ship needing reps is likely to be getting neuted as well?

Just curious. THANKS
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#2 - 2012-04-26 15:32:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Tengus typically have high resists and a bonus to the amount of HP an RR module transfers which can give them stronger tanking than a typical local setup - combined with a fairly small sig they won't take as much damage from the sleeper BS typically as a battlecruiser or battleship hull would. They also have decent damage range with missiles and can hit everything from frigs upwards with decent effective damage.

Running C4 sites with a pair of RR tengus is perfectly possible but not for the inexperienced - the neuting on these sites can be enough to cap out a tengu fairly easily and they will sometimes split their damage and neuting (tho more common for them to both neut and shoot the same target) so its no walk in the park and 3x RR tengus would be much safer for those who are worried about losing their tengu. (tho still a good chance of being ganked by other players while running the site).
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-04-26 15:35:13 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Tengus typically have high resists and a bonus to the amount of HP an RR module transfers which can give them stronger tanking than a typical local setup - combined with a fairly small sig they won't take as much damage from the sleeper BS typically as a battlecruiser or battleship hull would. They also have decent damage range with missiles and can hit everything from frigs upwards with decent effective damage.

Running C4 sites with a pair of RR tengus is perfectly possible but not for the inexperienced - the neuting on these sites can be enough to cap out a tengu fairly easily and they will sometimes split their damage and neuting (tho more common for them to both neut and shoot the same target) so its no walk in the park and 3x RR tengus would be much safer for those who are worried about losing their tengu. (tho still a good chance of being ganked by other players while running the site).


I understand. I have been kicking around a move into one of our Alliance corps WH, which is a C5-C4. My issue has always been what to do when i log in and nobody else is on. So while I would usually be running sites with them, on those occasions that nobody else is on, it would be nice to still be able to run something.
Bernie Nator
Seal Club Six
Plug N Play
#4 - 2012-04-26 15:44:09 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Rroff wrote:
Tengus typically have high resists and a bonus to the amount of HP an RR module transfers which can give them stronger tanking than a typical local setup - combined with a fairly small sig they won't take as much damage from the sleeper BS typically as a battlecruiser or battleship hull would. They also have decent damage range with missiles and can hit everything from frigs upwards with decent effective damage.

Running C4 sites with a pair of RR tengus is perfectly possible but not for the inexperienced - the neuting on these sites can be enough to cap out a tengu fairly easily and they will sometimes split their damage and neuting (tho more common for them to both neut and shoot the same target) so its no walk in the park and 3x RR tengus would be much safer for those who are worried about losing their tengu. (tho still a good chance of being ganked by other players while running the site).


I understand. I have been kicking around a move into one of our Alliance corps WH, which is a C5-C4. My issue has always been what to do when i log in and nobody else is on. So while I would usually be running sites with them, on those occasions that nobody else is on, it would be nice to still be able to run something.

Just as long as you've got the subsystem for RR on your tengu, you should be fine. If you can fit t2 CCC rigs on, they go a long way in making sure you stay cap stable. Worth the isk really. As for number of people, two is doable, but three is safer. if you get overly concerned about neural, switch to a passive tank so the only thing using cap is your DCU and your shield repper. Barring that, its pretty easy to breeze through.

And hurray people adding content!
Tr1cky The
VICTORIAN SCOURGE
#5 - 2012-04-26 15:45:56 UTC
U could still do some PI or explore , or both at the same time Big smile i for one if i am solo in the wh i got out exploring to find myself a wh to sell , or atleast something i can do sites in or .. i dunno , pvp ?
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2012-04-26 15:54:26 UTC
Tr1cky The wrote:
U could still do some PI or explore , or both at the same time Big smile i for one if i am solo in the wh i got out exploring to find myself a wh to sell , or atleast something i can do sites in or .. i dunno , pvp ?


Well sure there is always more to do than just run sites. But generally my PI never took that much time. Sometimes I don't feel like scanning out tons of sigs, or dont find any PVP. Plus I know how to do PI, suck down LADAR's, hunt other players. I haven't done 2 RR tengus in a C4 (hence this thread)
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#7 - 2012-04-26 16:27:34 UTC
out of curiosity, do you run this with only RR or do you also use cap transfer?

I should buy an Ishtar.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#8 - 2012-04-26 16:36:50 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
out of curiosity, do you run this with only RR or do you also use cap transfer?


Typically you'd just have the RR module and HML in the high slots - adding energy xfer in there would make it quite a lot harder to fit and make the sites a lot longer to run tho it might be possible with legions not sure.
Yellow Planet
RONA Corporation
#9 - 2012-04-26 19:30:00 UTC
I run these sites with 2 but 3 really seem to speed things up.
Marcus McTavish
Volcel Police
#10 - 2012-04-26 19:33:13 UTC
Typically sleepers focus fire on one of the tengus.
This tengu, for names sake is T1, the other will be T2.

T1 is being fired at and neuted,webbed,scrammed by the sleepers. T2 activated shield transfer to T1. T1 now has tank, and good capacitor, because he is only running hardeners. T2 has good capacitor because he is not being neuted.

When the sleepers switch targets switch your reps. If they dont focus fire, then attempt to toggle the reps to maintain capacitor stability while firing at the ships that are neuting you, or the ships that are scramming you.
Bibosikus
Air
#11 - 2012-04-26 23:50:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Bibosikus
My old corp has been experimenting with pairs of RR Domis on C4 anomalies, and they work very well albeit a bit slower than a Tengu pair. But at a fraction of the price of a T3, great survivability during a gank, and even with point fitted on one of them, it's a viable alternative method.

Edit: They haven't yet tried mags/radars, but that's on the cards with a boosting Legion in system.

Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
Arazel Chainfire
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2012-04-27 03:55:02 UTC
to run everything except mags/radars (for those you need a fleet booster) take a single basilisk, logi 5 required. Fit it with 4 RR and 2 cap transfer. Mids fit a pith C-type large shield booster, an invuln, an EM hardener, a shield extender, and a boost amplifier. Lows fit an RCU 2 and a PDU 2. Rigs, fit 2 shield extenders. Pair up with a nightmare (tachs and 2 cap transfers). The logi can permarun the RR and local rep, and a single tach nightmare will do more dps than a pair of 5 launcher tengu's, and the cap transfers mean you can basically ignore neuting.

Alternatively, take 2 vargur's (golems also work... but the dps is rather low...), fit for range, and use 2-3 cap transfers in the highs to fuel a local tank, use a pith C-type or better XL shield booster, can get a tank topping 1100 otherwise using t2 mods. 800's and EMP will hit at 4.2+69 - barrage will hit 8.5+104 when using 2 tracking enhancers and a tracking computer. Barrage works best past 50k, hail under that unless you need tracking. Will clear sites fastest with just 2 char's, but the nightmare/basi set scales up a lot better.

-Arazel
Invictra Atreides
Toward the Terra
#13 - 2012-04-27 13:58:08 UTC
Now I read about the Neut range:
- Is it 50 km or 70 km?
- How hard would it be to solo with 1 Tengo and try to stay at range?
- Would it be so slow that the ISK/h is not worth it ?

Blog | Tutorials | Youtube "I don’t know everything, I just know what I know."
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#14 - 2012-04-27 14:22:53 UTC
Some of the BS can neut to 70km but most ships neut to a lesser range.

1 Tengu Solo is going to struggle to break the sleeper spider repping on some waves and will take so long its probably not a very effective way to make ISK and maximises the chance you will get ganked by PVPers.
Hathrul
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#15 - 2012-04-27 16:06:25 UTC
main problem with just 2 tengu's is that although each spawn focus's fire, and thus damage is incomming on just 1 ship, both neuts and sentry towers work outside the focus fire. so you can have tengu 1 get neuted and tengu 2 getting the damage. The towers also dont seem to be related to any spawn (its why you dont have to kill them to finish a site) and will pick their own targets outside of the target of the other ships.

though its prefectly possible to do it with 2 tengu's, its a lot harder then with 3. more then difference between 3 and 4 tengu's. thats just a bit faster
Lexylia
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-04-28 03:50:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexylia
Invictra Atreides wrote:
Now I read about the Neut range:
- Is it 50 km or 70 km?
- How hard would it be to solo with 1 Tengo and try to stay at range?
- Would it be so slow that the ISK/h is not worth it ?


1. 70~
2. near impossible because the frigs fly 2-3k m/s and they web ... and some sleeper bs can fly 600m/s so they get u 100%
3. yeah would be REALLLY slow and expensiv as **** fitting
Aurelia Charante
ARC Heavy Technologies
Weapons of Mass Logistics
#17 - 2012-04-29 03:42:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Aurelia Charante
Arazel's setups are very interesting, and I plan to look into them some more, but I'm leary of using such cap intensive fits for WH PVE. Or local tanks for that matter.

There are two types of fits you can use, both have their pros and cons and for best results both fits should be used with an off grid booster (Tengu w/ Siege Mindlink). The first fit is the one I recommend, it works best with 3 or more:

[Tengu, C4 Ratter]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II

Target Painter II
EM Ward Amplifier II
EM Ward Amplifier II
EM Ward Amplifier II
Large Shield Extender II

Large Shield Transporter II
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Anti-Explosive Screen Reinforcer II

Tengu Defensive - Adaptive Shielding
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Intercalated Nanofibers

Cap stable, does just under 560 dps, and not terribly threatened by nuets. The nice thing about this fit is that if you have enough people (7+) flying identical ships with the offgrid booster you can replace the tp with an explo resist amp and run c5 sites with little difficulty. You can also drop one EM amp and fit a Sebo with range script and have no trouble with c4 Magnetars (w/ offgrid booster). Also the fitting is really tight hence the faction BCU's. With just 2 tengus the tank is only 720 dps.

The second fit is better suited to running pairs of tengus:

[Tengu, C4 Hardner]
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
Sensor Booster II

Large Shield Transporter II
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II

Tengu Defensive - Adaptive Shielding
Tengu Electronics - CPU Efficiency Gate
Tengu Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Intercalated Nanofibers

This one has a stronger tank at over 1000 dps with only a pair of tengu's. Much cheaper with only t2 BCU's though it does only 530 dps. Targeting range is terrible with and the sebo should have a range script. Without the sebo is barely targets over 80km. The worst part of this fit though is that it is very cap intensive and nuets can wreck havoc with it if they manage to shut off the hardners.

There are 2 sites, 1 mag and 1 radar, that have what I started calling the super secret pwnage squad (the 4x safegaurd spawn) and would NOT run those sites with the second fit or fewer than 4 + Offgrid booster of the first.
MackemInSpace
XX Industries
#18 - 2012-04-29 13:15:07 UTC  |  Edited by: MackemInSpace
My corp lives in a Cataclysmic Variable C4 system, and we started using RR for the csites because of that bonus, but as it turns out it works adequately in non-cat var systems too.

We experimented with various battleships too, T1 and navy and pirate faction, and so we've come to the following conclusions:

Csite order of difficulty:

Integrated Terminus (IT)
Frontier Barracks (FB)
Frontier Command Post (FCP)
Sleeper Information Sanctum (SIS)

For Cat Var systems:

3 BS (Machariel, Navy Raven, ECM Scorp) - can handle IT with warpouts
1 Tengu and 1 BS - can handle IT without warpouts and FB with warpouts
2 Tengu - can handle all but the SIS without needing warpouts
1 Tengu and 2 BS - can handle all but the SIS without needing warpouts
3 Tengu - can manage all sites without warpouts
2 Tengu and 1 BS - can manage all sites without warpouts and is slightly quicker
3 Tengu and 1 BS - easy street - so quick it's unreal

For non-cat-var systems and those systems with other effects, these figures will need to be altered appropriately, but 2 tengu and 1 BS can do all csites in a normal system without needing to warp out.

We tried various different battleships in the combinations but a T2 large pulse laser fit Nightmare wins hands down because of the high damage at longer optimal range than the other weapon types. It eats through battleships and cruisers regardless of range (within the context of these sites), and has drones to help with the smaller stuff.

Our RR Tengu fits were cap-stable buffer fits along the lines of the "Hardner" one posted by Aurelia, with the Nightmare being fit similarly but very much NOT cap stable when repping, and so we tend to only use the RR on the Nightmare in emergencies, relying on the Tengu RR the majority of the time, but when we realised how easy the sites were in this configuration, we got rid of some of the tank in favour of target painters on all ships and also a web to the Nightmare (which was already SeBo fit for the targetting range needed to target to the furthest limits of the longest range ammo).

With 3 Tengu and 1 Nightmare we can do a Cat Var C4 site in less than 8 minutes.
Pythag Malikai
The Terrifying League Of Dog Fort
Deepwater Hooligans
#19 - 2012-04-29 13:16:40 UTC
When I lived in a C3, I would occasionally get connections to C4 holes, and I would dual RR tengu the sites every now and then.

It takes about half an hour per site (give or take a few minutes), and each site will net you in the range of 60-65m sleeper loot plus salvage.

So, not particularly ISK efficient, but doable.
Amsterdam Conversations
Doomheim
#20 - 2012-04-29 16:39:28 UTC
Three T2 fitted RR Tengus (cheapish faction hardeners because of CPU though) will do the C4 anoms in ~13 minutes each, having run a few hundred sites I can tell the payout is an average 100m per anom.

If you have the accounts to quadbox three tengus + a noctis you can print ISK so bad it's not even funny. There really is a serious limiting factor to this though: Finding C4s with tons of anoms to support you for more than 2 hours is hard as hell. Takes lots of collapsing.

I turned to doing the C5s with 4 Tengus instead, but those really are a hassle. And you'll probably meet a lot more dangerous PVPers in C5s than in C4s.
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