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New dev blog: Team Security RMT Update - 3 Weeks in Numbers (YAY)

First post
Author
Gogela
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#101 - 2012-04-26 17:44:19 UTC
CCP Sreegs - Were there any unique items seized? By that I mean ships like the Freki, Mimir, Adrestia, Utu, Silver Magnate, Guardian-Vexor, etc... of which only a few have been released in the game and there's no way to add more?

Signatures should be used responsibly...

Atum
Eclipse Industrials
Quantum Forge
#102 - 2012-04-26 17:47:40 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Spam is an annoying problem and I am not sure it should reside with us but I'll start some emails internally and see what kind of conversation I can stir up.


If the spam is being entered into chat via a macro, I think it should reside with you.

How do you tell the difference between a macro running externally to the client that spams whatever window is active (EULA violation), versus some guy mashing an F-key on his Logitech G19 (legit trolling)?
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#103 - 2012-04-26 17:48:23 UTC
corestwo wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
SXYGeeK wrote:
vacuous


vicious.


These two words...they do not mean the same thing.


I can type what I want

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#104 - 2012-04-26 17:49:38 UTC
Gogela wrote:
CCP Sreegs - Were there any unique items seized? By that I mean ships like the Freki, Mimir, Adrestia, Utu, Silver Magnate, Guardian-Vexor, etc... of which only a few have been released in the game and there's no way to add more?


I don't think so but we'll look. As I said in the blog these really aren't EVE players. They don't enjoy the game or play it as anything other than a business.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

Logix42
Taxation Damnation
#105 - 2012-04-26 17:52:51 UTC
Double high five for the security team!

Go beyond the edge of space... Explore

corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#106 - 2012-04-26 17:53:23 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
corestwo wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
SXYGeeK wrote:
vacuous


vicious.


These two words...they do not mean the same thing.


I can type what I want


Drinking during the alliance panel at fanfest was hilarious, drinking at work is not. Blink

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo

SXYGeeK
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#107 - 2012-04-26 18:02:18 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
SXYGeeK wrote:


o/\o
High fives for team security.

Kazanir gave us a very measured and respectful viewpoint as one of the folks "caught in the crossfire"
his and others accounts may not have been banned, but that doesn't mean they aren't affected.

I do think the response was a little vacuous.

I'd love to hear something like..
"Yes I'll see where the petitions are hung up"
or "our team is currently looking into this and other potential false positive petitions"
or even "I am sorry to report there are findings of legitimate wrong doing"
but i understand there is a limit to how much you can disclose about specific cases.

Thanks for the hard work security bros !




The intent of the response isn't to be vicious. The fact of the matter is that I can't discuss this here nor can I discuss an individual's situation with anyone other than this individual.

No matter how nice the post is or how rude the rest of the posts on the exact same topic are the response cannot be any different.

Were I a guy playing a videogame who had a bunch of his space stuff tied up in some other guy who I thought was innocent I might be a bit put out and I understand that completely. This just isn't the venue for that discussion as frustrating as that may be.


Thanks Sreegs, I really appreciate what your team is doing.
I didn't say you where vicious! please know I don't want to infer you are doing these things out of malice.
I said the statement was vacuous (lacking substance).
but that is understandable based on CCP's policy of discussing user accounts.
Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
#108 - 2012-04-26 18:02:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Chribba
Vincent Athena wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Chribba wrote:
Very nice! This is good to see.

However I am still wondering if you have any actions planned for spammers and the likes that are, many that are most likely a funding for RMT as well I'm sure.

Spam is a problem! It keeps cluttering up channels and some are very easy and obvious, day old alts. I personally report bots every day but some still keep spamming weeks in. Will there be a team/plan to instantly ban spammers sometime too?

imo some are so obvious it doesn't need any investigation - just an instant hammer.

Keep up the great work, hope to see the next update you give with even more RMT/botters/spammers gone.

/c


Spam is an annoying problem and I am not sure it should reside with us but I'll start some emails internally and see what kind of conversation I can stir up.


If the spam is being entered into chat via a macro, I think it should reside with you.

I was just going to say this exact thing.

I'll just quote some of my recent tweets on the subject of bots in jita.

Quote:
According to my stats, under the past 24h, the top 15 speakers in Jita were all spam bots, spamming 41.5% of all chat text #tweetfleet


Quote:
Top 3 speakers in Jita in 2012: #1 Samantha Marley, #2 Widow Ohaya, #3 EureekasCastle Aucie #tweetfleet (all spambots btw...)


Plus some obvoius spambots:
http://eve-live.com/p/Jazmine_Tsukaya
http://eve-live.com/p/Jammie_Kahoudi
http://eve-live.com/p/bfdy_fdsgg

Spamming by bots is a problem, and it is becoming more and more frequent. I use the report bot function every day on these guys but not sure if anything happens, at least I would love if they got banner quicker than for their trial to run out.

Keep up the good work, we appreciate it much!

/c

★★★ Secure 3rd party service ★★★

Visit my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar'

Twitter @ChribbaVeldspar

Alpheias
The Khaleph
#109 - 2012-04-26 18:14:17 UTC
I fapped while reading.

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.

Florestan Bronstein
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#110 - 2012-04-26 18:21:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Florestan Bronstein
I wonder who these chest-beating, self-professed internet experts are who insist that this problem cannot be tackled via the supply side... Roll

GM Grimmi wrote:
The demand for ISK is what keeps the RMT element alive. They'll keep coming back as long as players are willing to do business with them.
Elmanketticks
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#111 - 2012-04-26 18:26:08 UTC
After reading that I bought 6x PLEX via eveonline.com. You never know when u need em ;)

The State will not fall. Join us. Fight. Conquer.

edit: disregard that, the state has fallen.

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
#112 - 2012-04-26 18:27:05 UTC
Great Work, CCP has been doing so many things right in so many ways ... and hopefully seeing the results in player growth from giving players what they've demanded (iterative improvements always not a choice of new or old) you'll keep listenting to players (not obeying what you hear but giving it more than a passing consideration) in the future.

TO others in the thread.

Moles ! if Goons and almost every other hugely sucessful EVE alliance has engaged in spying and deep mole activities, don't you think that CCP would also engage in covert ops to gain intelligence ?

As covert agents they'd have access to out of game forums and likely could have engaged in sting operations without blowing their cover.

Lets say you get an email via an out of game forum asking you.. "hey, would you mind trading some WoW currency for some ISK" and go ahead and make that transaction assuming it was just a alliance mate.

They could use that sort of internal evidence to support their other suspicions. This isn't a court of law where they might need to give up the name of their mole and there is no reason they can't be as clever as players in their space exploits. I'm not sure that if that were a few hundred million isk and looked isolated they'd make a big deal of it.... but if they saw a pattern of exchanges done in the manner that a person requested it be done they very well might be more inclined to act.

I know that I was contacted once for a passing comment I made on an EVE forum about being willing to sell isk at a much lower price than the market IF I had CCP's blessing to do so (or if it somehow became legal to ignore that part of a EULA).

While I had made a conditional statement which clearly stated that as things stand I would not engage in such an activity, someone did contact me trying to see if I'd be willing to sell plex or isk for real $.

Now, as it was using ingame mail, it wasn't a very sneaky ploy or it was a real idiot of a player willing to ask via game channels. Of course all they got from me was a wall of text return evemail saying NO and explaining my reasoning why I would consider it stealing without CCP's blessing or a general move toward legal RMT microtransactions.

Still, such a thing coming via external channels could be quite a good way to crack down . I'd imagine it would be pretty easy for them to actually have an employer or contractor (magnum PI ?) buy gold from gold sellers and trace where the character with the isk got it from...... but they can also go the next step and post adds wanting to buy or trade isk for out of game services on outside game forums and bust people who contact them.

.

Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#113 - 2012-04-26 18:29:15 UTC
"Be careful with whom you trade with - Team security will plunder your wallets harder than the goons."

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VaMei
Meafi Corp
#114 - 2012-04-26 18:30:22 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Ines Fy wrote:
Your economics guy was complaining that was too much isk in the economy.
He also says that goods are not isk and removing goods is not a sink for the isk.
So what about the Eve Central Bank make an auction of of this seized goods with starting bids of 50% the market value and this way the ECB can remove even more isk from the economy and we all win in the process?

One problem I have with this is that we're seeing patterns of activity where the isk is botted up and in this case we're printing isk at a rate which it should not be happening at out of thin air.
At the end of the day though I'm not an economics guy so the assets sit in the banned accounts until or unless someone decides to use them for something.
I'd considered at one point using them as a reward system but I can't get over the fact that a lot of this stuff just simply shouldn’t exist and that can't be good for an economy.

I like the idea of an ‘EBC’. It gives CCP a tool to sink isk from the economy without manipulating taxes & fees. Using confiscated goods (goods only, no isk) to do it would be rather like a Sheriff’s Auction, but the isk would go back to the central bank rather than continuing to circulate.

I understand that you have reservations about returning ill-gotten goods to the economy, but there’s a sizeable amount of isk in circulation that was created through illicit means as well; and Dr. E. seems to be more worried about the isk at this point.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#115 - 2012-04-26 18:31:51 UTC
VaMei wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Ines Fy wrote:
Your economics guy was complaining that was too much isk in the economy.
He also says that goods are not isk and removing goods is not a sink for the isk.
So what about the Eve Central Bank make an auction of of this seized goods with starting bids of 50% the market value and this way the ECB can remove even more isk from the economy and we all win in the process?

One problem I have with this is that we're seeing patterns of activity where the isk is botted up and in this case we're printing isk at a rate which it should not be happening at out of thin air.
At the end of the day though I'm not an economics guy so the assets sit in the banned accounts until or unless someone decides to use them for something.
I'd considered at one point using them as a reward system but I can't get over the fact that a lot of this stuff just simply shouldn’t exist and that can't be good for an economy.

I like the idea of an ‘EBC’. It gives CCP a tool to sink isk from the economy without manipulating taxes & fees. Using confiscated goods (goods only, no isk) to do it would be rather like a Sheriff’s Auction, but the isk would go back to the central bank rather than continuing to circulate.

I understand that you have reservations about returning ill-gotten goods to the economy, but there’s a sizeable amount of isk in circulation that was created through illicit means as well; and Dr. E. seems to be more worried about the isk at this point.


The isk was created to purchase the goods. :)

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

kakmonstret
Domain Mining and Trading Corp
#116 - 2012-04-26 18:39:43 UTC  |  Edited by: kakmonstret
CCP Sreegs wrote:


The isk was created to purchase the goods. :)


Yes but alot of that goods was created by other players not cheating and thus not add to the system illegally . The stuff bought from NPC:s ofcourse was created by that isk.

The again money was sent out from the cheating player for that goods and I guess you are not reversing all those trades too.

But a middle ground here would be to sell on those things that are of a type that only players can create.

Ninja edit:

Problem is that those things *should* be in game not the isk that was traded for it. This suggestion actually helps pulling some of that isk out of the game
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#117 - 2012-04-26 18:40:51 UTC
Except as he already stated those items shouldn't belong in the game anyway as they were often times obtained through extensive botting and so why would they sell them?

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo

CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#118 - 2012-04-26 18:45:20 UTC
I'm seeing some confusion and need to point out that the botting actions are still ongoing. This is an RMT-related blog and doesn't touch upon botting numbers at all. We'll do those another time.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#119 - 2012-04-26 18:49:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Grey Stormshadow
oh and btw there are still market bots in jita which keep buying (small amounts of) stuff with highest buy order, set up lowest sell order right away and maintain it by keeping the order lowest until sold.

You notice these bots rather easily as they are usually involved with very many products and when you sell something to their buy order the same stuff appears to sell order always faster than it would humanly be possible to set up such order. The orders obviously stay on top/low pretty much constantly.

These things are really annoying, specially if the items involved are already manipulated or on short supply.

Please give some time to research this. Thank you.

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Kazanir
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#120 - 2012-04-26 18:49:59 UTC
Extensive botting being funneled into an RMT ring is probably the most common setup seen in the ~1600 banned accounts and it is safe to assume that the majority of the ISK and assets in question come either from botting or trojan-hijacked people. The latter is a problem that can only be reversed upon a detailed investigation, and botted assets should, economically speaking, remain banned.

Also, doing anything with those PLEX on banned accounts would be terrible for CCP's bottom line. PLEX that will never be redeemed are free money and should be treated that way. The accounting term for this is breakage, although I am not familiar with the nature or extent of Iceland's escheat laws that would govern unredeemed PLEX.

Anyway Sreegs is definitely doing the right thing by leaving those assets in the Phantom Zone.