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New dev blog: Team Security RMT Update - 3 Weeks in Numbers (YAY)

First post
Author
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#81 - 2012-04-26 16:39:08 UTC
Camios wrote:
Nice, I hope to hear news from your team every month. You could turn this into a monthly blog like "The tales of security Dad" where you tell us numbers.

That would really be a good marketing move.

Burn them all.


On a side note: what did you decide about 'scarlet letters'?


There's been no decision reached yet and I'm still going over the various responses.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

Mahni
Perkone
Caldari State
#82 - 2012-04-26 16:44:10 UTC
Can you give us the number of of accs that were paid with plex and money?
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#83 - 2012-04-26 16:45:39 UTC
Mahni wrote:
Can you give us the number of of accs that were paid with plex and money?


I can not right now. I can say that I was surprised by the percentages if that's indicative of anything.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#84 - 2012-04-26 16:50:37 UTC
Go Team Security Big smile, I also suggest a change in name, Team Robocop is good, I prefer Team Botbusters though

hi-five to all those involved, RMT is bad umkay

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Ken Kyoukan
#85 - 2012-04-26 16:51:51 UTC
FAO: CCP Sreegs

I did evemail you a couple of times regarding this and a bot type matter alongside an email to the security email address...
Feel free to contact me regarding these or to ask me to post them again here.

Thanks in advance,
Ken.
SXYGeeK
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2012-04-26 16:52:12 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Kazanir wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
That is untrue and as I elaborated in every single case we've found where someone was flagged for RMT who shouldn't have been, they were doing something else they shouldn't have been. Not so much a false positive as a positive for the wrong activity.

It may be mincing words a bit but there's a very big difference from my perspective as these aren't really innocents getting caught in the crossfire.


I have refrained from commenting or arguing with you on the forums, thus far, because I seriously respect you for this undertaking. You are doing a good thing and have to contend with a legion of idiots while doing so. Props.

However, the response time we are seeing on certain things is a little disconcerting, and it is what motivated corestwo to post. In the case that corestwo is posting about, it took us nearly a month to get any sort of response despite repeated petitions and e-mails to your security@ e-mail address. Having to wait for such a long period of time without even a "we are looking at this" e-mail, while you are posting about the low false positive rate on the forums -- I'm sure you can see how these events make me sad. Nevertheless I have tried to be patient, but now it has been a month since the original bannings.

Also, I know of at least one person who was unbanned a week ago and who had all of his accounts compensated with 14 days of game time for the false positive ban. You declined to provide an explanation for the false positive to this person, but I can only surmise that you considered him innocent rather than in the "was doing something shady" category.

I'm trying to say this nicely because I genuinely want your efforts to be successful and I respect what you have done so far. This is why I haven't been harassing you about hypotheticals like the previous devblog thread. But the case I'm talking about is almost a textbook example of a false positive and so far it isn't being handled very well. Right now we have 200 billion ISK in assets (belonging to around 20-25 real people who invested in the bond) that are sitting unusable and have been for a month. In light of that situation, continuing to read posts about "no false positives" and "doing something else they shouldn't have been" at this point is aggravating. It is especially aggravating because there is no way the lost income from that 200B in assets will be compensated fairly by CCP if the person IS unbanned -- it is just gone, and there is no way for you to fairly rectify the consequences of a false positive of this magnitude.

Like I said. I don't have any desire to start an Internet slapfight or rake you over the coals on this stuff since I think you're doing a pretty good job at a great thing. But yeah -- there are still issues, and for me they aren't just hypotheticals.

Ranger 1 wrote:
In all fairness, if your internet "friend" actually was doing something in violation of the EULA (botting, RMT, or otherwise) are you really sure they would admit it to you...


I have access to the API data of the banned accounts that were mentioned by corestwo so I could go check if I really wanted to. But yes, in this case I am sure.


I stand behind what I said because it was true. The petition system is the place for you to air these complaints.

"I know a guy who said a thing" doesn't quite cut the mustard and unless it's your account you are not a part of the conversation by matter of policy.



o/\o
High fives for team security.

Kazanir gave us a very measured and respectful viewpoint as one of the folks "caught in the crossfire"
his and others accounts may not have been banned, but that doesn't mean they aren't affected.

I do think the response was a little vacuous.

I'd love to hear something like..
"Yes I'll see where the petitions are hung up"
or "our team is currently looking into this and other potential false positive petitions"
or even "I am sorry to report there are findings of legitimate wrong doing"
but i understand there is a limit to how much you can disclose about specific cases.

Thanks for the hard work security bros !


Bagehi
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#87 - 2012-04-26 16:59:00 UTC
Ines Fy wrote:
Quote:
4.2 Trillion or so isk in assets has been seized from RMTers or suppliers.


Your economics guy was complaining that was too much isk in the economy.
He also says that goods are not isk and removing goods is not a sink for the isk.

So what about the Eve Central Bank make an auction of of this seized goods with starting bids of 50% the market value and this way the ECB can remove even more isk from the economy and we all win in the process?


I like this. There was suggestion at Fan Fest that the confiscated PLEX might be sold to players, why not some of these assets as well? If it is just a pile of Merlins and Rifters, it wouldn't really be worth it, but (from the value) I'm going to guess there is some nice shiny stuff in that 4.2 trillion isk pile of assets.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#88 - 2012-04-26 17:07:46 UTC
SXYGeeK wrote:


o/\o
High fives for team security.

Kazanir gave us a very measured and respectful viewpoint as one of the folks "caught in the crossfire"
his and others accounts may not have been banned, but that doesn't mean they aren't affected.

I do think the response was a little vacuous.

I'd love to hear something like..
"Yes I'll see where the petitions are hung up"
or "our team is currently looking into this and other potential false positive petitions"
or even "I am sorry to report there are findings of legitimate wrong doing"
but i understand there is a limit to how much you can disclose about specific cases.

Thanks for the hard work security bros !




The intent of the response isn't to be vicious. The fact of the matter is that I can't discuss this here nor can I discuss an individual's situation with anyone other than this individual.

No matter how nice the post is or how rude the rest of the posts on the exact same topic are the response cannot be any different.

Were I a guy playing a videogame who had a bunch of his space stuff tied up in some other guy who I thought was innocent I might be a bit put out and I understand that completely. This just isn't the venue for that discussion as frustrating as that may be.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#89 - 2012-04-26 17:09:37 UTC
Bagehi wrote:
Ines Fy wrote:
Quote:
4.2 Trillion or so isk in assets has been seized from RMTers or suppliers.


Your economics guy was complaining that was too much isk in the economy.
He also says that goods are not isk and removing goods is not a sink for the isk.

So what about the Eve Central Bank make an auction of of this seized goods with starting bids of 50% the market value and this way the ECB can remove even more isk from the economy and we all win in the process?


I like this. There was suggestion at Fan Fest that the confiscated PLEX might be sold to players, why not some of these assets as well? If it is just a pile of Merlins and Rifters, it wouldn't really be worth it, but (from the value) I'm going to guess there is some nice shiny stuff in that 4.2 trillion isk pile of assets.


CCP shouldn't be in the business of competing against produce the playerbase is also selling. ISK sinks are a nice thing, but I'm of the opinion, that simply deleting those assets is the best thing CCP can do with them.
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#90 - 2012-04-26 17:10:02 UTC
Bagehi wrote:
Ines Fy wrote:
Quote:
4.2 Trillion or so isk in assets has been seized from RMTers or suppliers.


Your economics guy was complaining that was too much isk in the economy.
He also says that goods are not isk and removing goods is not a sink for the isk.

So what about the Eve Central Bank make an auction of of this seized goods with starting bids of 50% the market value and this way the ECB can remove even more isk from the economy and we all win in the process?


I like this. There was suggestion at Fan Fest that the confiscated PLEX might be sold to players, why not some of these assets as well? If it is just a pile of Merlins and Rifters, it wouldn't really be worth it, but (from the value) I'm going to guess there is some nice shiny stuff in that 4.2 trillion isk pile of assets.


One problem I have with this is that we're seeing patterns of activity where the isk is botted up and in this case we're printing isk at a rate which it should not be happening at out of thin air.

At the end of the day though I'm not an economics guy so the assets sit in the banned accounts until or unless someone decides to use them for something.

I'd considered at one point using them as a reward system but I can't get over the fact that a lot of this stuff just simply shouldn't exist and that can't be good for an economy.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

bitters much
Nekkid Inc.
#91 - 2012-04-26 17:11:52 UTC
Nice work Sreegs & team.

@ whiny Goons: Why dont you shoot the Jita monument over it while you there anyway in 2 days ?
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#92 - 2012-04-26 17:13:40 UTC
Chribba wrote:
Very nice! This is good to see.

However I am still wondering if you have any actions planned for spammers and the likes that are, many that are most likely a funding for RMT as well I'm sure.

Spam is a problem! It keeps cluttering up channels and some are very easy and obvious, day old alts. I personally report bots every day but some still keep spamming weeks in. Will there be a team/plan to instantly ban spammers sometime too?

imo some are so obvious it doesn't need any investigation - just an instant hammer.

Keep up the great work, hope to see the next update you give with even more RMT/botters/spammers gone.

/c


:P Most of these jita spammers are even using scripts/bots to spam with... that should be considered against the rules... (you can notice by the intervals)

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934

Tanaka Aiko
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#93 - 2012-04-26 17:14:33 UTC
good job guys :)

other solution may consist of cheaper GTCs (on RL money), to make RMT even harder to be profitable
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#94 - 2012-04-26 17:23:50 UTC
Chribba wrote:
Very nice! This is good to see.

However I am still wondering if you have any actions planned for spammers and the likes that are, many that are most likely a funding for RMT as well I'm sure.

Spam is a problem! It keeps cluttering up channels and some are very easy and obvious, day old alts. I personally report bots every day but some still keep spamming weeks in. Will there be a team/plan to instantly ban spammers sometime too?

imo some are so obvious it doesn't need any investigation - just an instant hammer.

Keep up the great work, hope to see the next update you give with even more RMT/botters/spammers gone.

/c


Spam is an annoying problem and I am not sure it should reside with us but I'll start some emails internally and see what kind of conversation I can stir up.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

Xyfu
Love From Above
#95 - 2012-04-26 17:29:16 UTC
I'm worried about how effective this is. Were I an illicit ISK seller, I'd temporarily close shop and wait for you guys to utterly **** every other one, then go on to something else, (say, network manipulation becomes a bigger problem than RMT, or some ****), then start back up.

After all, it's been nearly 10 years of good business, what's 10 months of downtime?
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
#96 - 2012-04-26 17:31:26 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Chribba wrote:
Very nice! This is good to see.

However I am still wondering if you have any actions planned for spammers and the likes that are, many that are most likely a funding for RMT as well I'm sure.

Spam is a problem! It keeps cluttering up channels and some are very easy and obvious, day old alts. I personally report bots every day but some still keep spamming weeks in. Will there be a team/plan to instantly ban spammers sometime too?

imo some are so obvious it doesn't need any investigation - just an instant hammer.

Keep up the great work, hope to see the next update you give with even more RMT/botters/spammers gone.

/c


Spam is an annoying problem and I am not sure it should reside with us but I'll start some emails internally and see what kind of conversation I can stir up.


If the spam is being entered into chat via a macro, I think it should reside with you.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction

Danny Centauri
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#97 - 2012-04-26 17:33:37 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Navigator
Hey there,

Some actual research that could help you guys out. First these EVE ISK companies are relying upon two methods to attack the EVE community and get customers.

Firstly let’s deal with PPC advertising on Google, I will only deal with Google as that will cover the vast majority of the issue (some similar work may be required with Bing to cover the problem in the US). Right now PPC is a massive problem as it’s an instant trip to the top of the SERPs with the majority of Google users not realising that people pay for these rankings and that it is no indication that Google actually trust these sites just purely based upon the fact that they paid to be there.

As EVE online ISK and other EVE assets are copyrighted then get in touch with Google and make a Digital Millennium Copyright Act request to Google complaining about the copyrighted materials appearing on these ISK selling websites. This will then either force the site into removing these assets or if they don’t then Google will delist them not only from the regular SERPs but also from PPC.

Secondly onto regular results in the SERPs and how these can be tackled. Well to put it simply these companies are scammy as hell and their whole online strategy is based around spammy link building something which is actually against Googles guidelines, so straight away report them:
https://www.google.com/webmasters/tools/spamreport?hl=en&pli=1

Then start your own site targeted towards the keyword table below, based around the effects of RMT on the EVE community and the risks of getting caught. You simply have to create better content than them and then plea to the EVE community to all write a blog post about RMT and buying ISK and link it to your site. If you ask people to use the anchor text for the exact keyword then great, if not don’t worry too much as Google have recently reduced the value of anchor text on links.

Site traffic for 'A known isk selling site.'
Query Percent of Search Traffic
buy isk 37.10%
eve online isk 21.49%
eve isk 13.41%
iskspot support 2.19%
buy eve isk 2.12%
iskspot safe 1.98%
damage dealing eve 1.29%
eve high-tech weapons 1.12%
eve security status 0.90%
eve weapons upgrades 5 0.78%

They have 2,820 back links of which 295 come from 255 websites with the anchor text ‘eve ISK’ and 254 come from 225 websites with the anchor text ‘buy isk’. This is something we can easily beat as a community especially with high PR links from the main EVE sites.

Finally one last recommendation is to make a youtube video optimised for the keywords buy isk, perhaps go for a title like ‘buy ISK… suffer the consequences’. This will then with a little bit of work appear in the SERPs too as Google love putting Youtube videos at the top of the SERPS effectively giving you double top positions and knocking everyone else actually selling ISK below the fold.

If you steal their traffic you kill their industry. If you require any advice or want any further information please feel free to contact me. I'm sure there are plenty more SEO'ers in the community that could offer you further advice too. Good luck killing RMT.

Regards,
Danny

EVE Manufacturing Guide - Simple guides to manufacturing in EVE for both beginners and more experienced players.

CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#98 - 2012-04-26 17:36:37 UTC
Xyfu wrote:
I'm worried about how effective this is. Were I an illicit ISK seller, I'd temporarily close shop and wait for you guys to utterly **** every other one, then go on to something else, (say, network manipulation becomes a bigger problem than RMT, or some ****), then start back up.

After all, it's been nearly 10 years of good business, what's 10 months of downtime?


You should encourage them all to do this.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

Voidfinger
Malevelon Haven
#99 - 2012-04-26 17:37:43 UTC
Man I love spending 500+ million for a abbadon!
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#100 - 2012-04-26 17:44:01 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
SXYGeeK wrote:
vacuous


vicious.


These two words...they do not mean the same thing.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo