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New dev blog: Team Security RMT Update - 3 Weeks in Numbers (YAY)

First post
Author
Jastra
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2012-04-26 14:48:13 UTC
good stuff
CCP Sreegs
CCP Retirement Home
#42 - 2012-04-26 14:48:46 UTC
corestwo wrote:
CCP Sreegs wrote:
spookydonut wrote:
Hey can you give us an updated count of false positives?

At fanfest sreegs said it was only 1 false positive.

I know for a fact that it's at least 15 now, and maybe as high as 50.


That is untrue and as I elaborated in every single case we've found where someone was flagged for RMT who shouldn't have been, they were doing something else they shouldn't have been. Not so much a false positive as a positive for the wrong activity.

It may be mincing words a bit but there's a very big difference from my perspective as these aren't really innocents getting caught in the crossfire.


If this proves to be true in some of your ongoing investigations (I have a friend who is still banned who only just received any sort of reply from you guys after almost a month of hearing absolutely nothing...) will you come out and admit it?


I believe we have. We've also reimbursed people who were wrongly caught in the crossfire. I'll add to that though that everyone in prison is innocent and not everyone claiming to have been caught in some massively wide net that doesn't exist is doing so honestly. :)

I don't feel any pain one way or another by admitting a mistake. We did the same by admitting we had any false positives at all.

"Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012

Rrama Ratamnim
Phoenix Evolved Part Duo
#43 - 2012-04-26 14:49:40 UTC
Turelus wrote:
If you want an effective log in banner for newbies to see just show a wallet with -100 000 000.00 ISK and say "THIS COULD BE YOU!"

That would scare the crap out of me!


Agreed a negative wallet picture with a big caption "Don't be a statistic! RMT is wrong!"

That said

is it just me or for all the good work team security does do they need a new name??? Its just so .. normal....

I vote for Team RoboCop!
Denidil
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2012-04-26 14:49:50 UTC
corestwo wrote:


Edited some clarification in; he was running a bond in the alliance. It'd have been all too easy for him to get false flagged.


and just as easy for him to try to be hiding his illicit activities under the legal ones.

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.

SabotNoob
Doomheim
#45 - 2012-04-26 14:51:58 UTC
"...which can be used by you to fund your game time and the money goes into developing a better spaceship game instead of buying the equivalent of a digital drug dealer a cool new diamond-covered blingy case for his beeper."

Beeper?! Who the hell still uses a beeper? They should be shot (in-game), then banned.
Kismeteer
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#46 - 2012-04-26 14:53:42 UTC
I think that moving all the offenders to a corp of 'Banned Players' while they were banned would have been a good way to indicating that they were 'bad'.
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#47 - 2012-04-26 14:54:30 UTC  |  Edited by: corestwo
Denidil wrote:
corestwo wrote:


Edited some clarification in; he was running a bond in the alliance. It'd have been all too easy for him to get false flagged.


and just as easy for him to try to be hiding his illicit activities under the legal ones.


Roll

While I'll be the first to admit that goons were probably as riddled with RMTers as any other nullsec alliance, he's also one of the last people I'd expect to have been RMTing, for a variety of reasons. And the fact that every goon wasn't involved in RMT is just as obvious as your bias towards thinking we were.

@CCPSreegs: I'll hold you to that, then, once you guys finish. Given how long it took him to get one reply, I suppose I'll be reporting back sometime in 2013.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo

gfldex
#48 - 2012-04-26 15:01:13 UTC
All hail our new RMT overlo ... no wait! All hail our new Internet Space Friend CCP Sreegs!

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#49 - 2012-04-26 15:03:26 UTC

Wow..... AWESOME!!!!!

If 1268 accounts are now permabanned.... are you getting any flack from management about the loss of 1268 Monthly Subs??

That would be a loss of $20,000 in monthly income for CCP???

How can we get management off your back!!!!
Eric Deloitte
The Flowing Penguins
#50 - 2012-04-26 15:10:32 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Wow..... AWESOME!!!!!

If 1268 accounts are now permabanned.... are you getting any flack from management about the loss of 1268 Monthly Subs??

That would be a loss of $20,000 in monthly income for CCP???

How can we get management off your back!!!!



They were probably costing CCP a lot more in Plex sales that sub fees
Francisco Bizzaro
#51 - 2012-04-26 15:11:37 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Wow..... AWESOME!!!!!

If 1268 accounts are now permabanned.... are you getting any flack from management about the loss of 1268 Monthly Subs??

That would be a loss of $20,000 in monthly income for CCP???

How can we get management off your back!!!!

It probably just means 1268 ISK-purchased PLEX don't get consumed every month. Still an issue, but less direct than missing $20k.

And anyway, if the RMTers were contributing $20k to CCP every month, they must have been earning even more than that via their RMT business. That business now gets shifted to legal CCP-endorsed PLEX.
Faith Patrouette
Careless Carebears Inc.
#52 - 2012-04-26 15:12:37 UTC
I never thought i would openly admit this but Sreegs.. I think I love you! Shocked

Keep up the great work guys!
Cpt Arareb
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#53 - 2012-04-26 15:13:46 UTC
Nice work indeed sreegs and team ..keep upCool
Kazanir
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#54 - 2012-04-26 15:14:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Kazanir
CCP Sreegs wrote:
That is untrue and as I elaborated in every single case we've found where someone was flagged for RMT who shouldn't have been, they were doing something else they shouldn't have been. Not so much a false positive as a positive for the wrong activity.

It may be mincing words a bit but there's a very big difference from my perspective as these aren't really innocents getting caught in the crossfire.


I have refrained from commenting or arguing with you on the forums, thus far, because I seriously respect you for this undertaking. You are doing a good thing and have to contend with a legion of idiots while doing so. Props.

However, the response time we are seeing on certain things is a little disconcerting, and it is what motivated corestwo to post. In the case that corestwo is posting about, it took us nearly a month to get any sort of response despite repeated petitions and e-mails to your security@ e-mail address. Having to wait for such a long period of time without even a "we are looking at this" e-mail, while you are posting about the low false positive rate on the forums -- I'm sure you can see how these events make me sad. Nevertheless I have tried to be patient, but now it has been a month since the original bannings.

Also, I know of at least one person who was unbanned a week ago and who had all of his accounts compensated with 14 days of game time for the false positive ban. You declined to provide an explanation for the false positive to this person, but I can only surmise that you considered him innocent rather than in the "was doing something shady" category.

I'm trying to say this nicely because I genuinely want your efforts to be successful and I respect what you have done so far. This is why I haven't been harassing you about hypotheticals like the previous devblog thread. But the case I'm talking about is almost a textbook example of a false positive and so far it isn't being handled very well. Right now we have 200 billion ISK in assets (belonging to around 20-25 real people who invested in the bond) that are sitting unusable and have been for a month. In light of that situation, continuing to read posts about "no false positives" and "doing something else they shouldn't have been" at this point is aggravating. It is especially aggravating because there is no way the lost income from that 200B in assets will be compensated fairly by CCP if the person IS unbanned -- it is just gone, and there is no way for you to fairly rectify the consequences of a false positive of this magnitude.

Like I said. I don't have any desire to start an Internet slapfight or rake you over the coals on this stuff since I think you're doing a pretty good job at a great thing. But yeah -- there are still issues, and for me they aren't just hypotheticals.

Ranger 1 wrote:
In all fairness, if your internet "friend" actually was doing something in violation of the EULA (botting, RMT, or otherwise) are you really sure they would admit it to you...


I have access to the API data of the banned accounts that were mentioned by corestwo so I could go check if I really wanted to. But yes, in this case I am sure.
Shepard Book
Underground Stargate
#55 - 2012-04-26 15:15:42 UTC
Anything being done to prevent them making new accounts?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#56 - 2012-04-26 15:16:15 UTC
corestwo wrote:
Denidil wrote:
corestwo wrote:


Edited some clarification in; he was running a bond in the alliance. It'd have been all too easy for him to get false flagged.


and just as easy for him to try to be hiding his illicit activities under the legal ones.


Roll

While I'll be the first to admit that goons were probably as riddled with RMTers as any other nullsec alliance, he's also one of the last people I'd expect to have been RMTing, for a variety of reasons. And the fact that every goon wasn't involved in RMT is just as obvious as your bias towards thinking we were.

@CCPSreegs: I'll hold you to that, then, once you guys finish. Given how long it took him to get one reply, I suppose I'll be reporting back sometime in 2013.


My original question was an honest one, and I have no prejudice toward goons in general. Any alliance or corp can have botters, RMT, or ISK laundering going on and the general membership may very well not be aware of it.

I've had more than one person that I thought I knew fairly well finally fess up to dabbling in those activities over the years... it happens.

One thing to keep in mind if it takes that long to get a response other than "Goodbye" it could very well mean they are taking the time to be thorough, which in my mind is preferable a fast and probably negative outcome.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#57 - 2012-04-26 15:21:47 UTC  |  Edited by: corestwo
Ranger 1 wrote:
One thing to keep in mind if it takes that long to get a response other than "Goodbye" it could very well mean they are taking the time to be thorough, which in my mind is preferable a fast and probably negative outcome.

At least one case in which CCP decided that the player was, shall we say, partially guilty (unbanned, minus some cash despite not having purchased isk), the player in question was unbanned on all of his multiple accounts in less than a week. I'm sure kazanir can provide more examples of swift turnaround times. So, you can see why we're kind of upset about a month without so much as a "we're looking into it".

And as Kazanir noted, he has API access to the characters in question. If isk were vanishing from the accounts with no explanation, he'd know about it.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo

Ayame Tao
#58 - 2012-04-26 15:27:00 UTC
CCP Sreegs wrote:
Simvastatin Montelukast wrote:
Other then isk, did the banned accounts have lots of :

Ore?
Faction Goodies?
other items of interest?


Assets are calculated into an isk value for the sake of simplicity. You can imagine that items seized run the gamut.


Can I have their stuff?

o/\o for Team Security.


BugraT WarheaD
#59 - 2012-04-26 15:29:30 UTC
Hi five you people ! Keep up this nice work ;)
Daneel Trevize
Give my 11percent back
#60 - 2012-04-26 15:29:56 UTC
Quote:
illicit businessmen who could really care less about their impact on New Eden
... Straight
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om7O0MFkmpw
Edumacate thy selves.