These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Skill Discussions

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

The only thing this game needs.
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Mag's
Azn Empire
#61 - 2012-04-21 06:47:13 UTC
No.

Hell no.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Alice Saki
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#62 - 2012-04-21 08:44:23 UTC
No to Grinding!

FREEZE! Drop the LIKES AND WALK AWAY! - Currenly rebuilding gaming machine, I will Return.
Josef Djugashvilis
#63 - 2012-04-21 10:06:40 UTC
Vito Antonio wrote:
Im for active skill training bonus.
Like pay 1.000.000 isk per hour for +50% training speed. 10.000.000 per hour for +75% speed increase and 100.000.000 per hour for +100% speed increase.


Obviously it will in addition solve the isk inflation problem.



So I buy/sell plex to train more quickly.

Hmm wouldn't that be 'Pay To Win'?

This is not a signature.
Lord Dravius
Doomheim
#64 - 2012-04-22 11:30:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Dravius
Dr Caymus wrote:
Such a system existed for a very brief time early in the game's history. In-game activities had the effect of modestly accelerating the rate at which certain skills were increased. The feature was removed from the game at least in part because it was being exploited: people used automated means to repeat the various activities that augmented skill growth. Therein lies concern number one. Is it possible to implement a system like this so that it is "bot-proof"?

That's a stupid reason to remove something. By that logic you'd have to remove 90% of the game. Ratting can be botted and so can mining etc. I'm still against the removal just like I was when it originally happened. The chances of CCP changing their minds at this point are pretty much nonexistent though.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#65 - 2012-04-22 13:23:34 UTC
Lord Dravius wrote:
Dr Caymus wrote:
Such a system existed for a very brief time early in the game's history. In-game activities had the effect of modestly accelerating the rate at which certain skills were increased. The feature was removed from the game at least in part because it was being exploited: people used automated means to repeat the various activities that augmented skill growth. Therein lies concern number one. Is it possible to implement a system like this so that it is "bot-proof"?

That's a stupid reason to remove something. By that logic you'd have to remove 90% of the game. Ratting can be botted and so can mining etc. I'm still against the removal just like I was when it originally happened. The chances of CCP changing their minds at this point are pretty much nonexistent though.
It was part of the reason for removal, the other reasons you'll find dotted throughout this thread. Blink

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Golden Duck
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#66 - 2012-04-25 21:06:29 UTC
There needs to be some kind of active skill training in this game..
BUT, paying for increase SP is a very very bad idea, so is increase training time of skills you use (to easy to abuse).
The only good solution to "active" skill training that i see is with some kind of missions / daily activity / weekly activity.
Example :something that takes like 1h max to do, and you gain xx amount of hours on your current training.
How much and what you need to do needs to be balanced by ccp.
This can also only apply to players with less than lets say 10 mil SP. after u reach 10 mil SP you cant get any
bonus to your skill training.
This will give new players better motivation to play the game. and as they play they learn more and more.
Bigger chance they stay in the game after they have tried it. Which also give better income for ccp.

For the older players that are against this because they dont have "time" to do these things, "grind" as they call it.
Is it fair that veteran players can get more ISK and get same amount of training without even playing the game??
Veteran players can make 1 billion or more every day. how long do you think it will take for a new player to make "good" ISK??
New players need some love to keep them in the game, and give them something to do.
Doing missions all day long sucks, and dont get much money from it. so even if they got the skill for certain ships and items they cant always afford it.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#67 - 2012-04-25 22:07:45 UTC
Golden Duck wrote:
There needs to be some kind of active skill training in this game..


Why?
Golden Duck
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#68 - 2012-04-26 05:33:19 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Golden Duck wrote:
There needs to be some kind of active skill training in this game..


Why?

Read my post, i explain why...!!
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#69 - 2012-04-26 06:05:52 UTC
Golden Duck wrote:
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Golden Duck wrote:
There needs to be some kind of active skill training in this game..


Why?

Read my post, i explain why...!!


No, you actually don't. You make some allusion to the idea that forcing new players to grind is somehow good for retention, but I sure as hell don't see the logic in that. So again: why exactly does EVE need active skill training? Lay it out, step by step. If you can make a solid case and answer any critiques, I'll cede the point. Until then, well, it's a missing premise to the rest of your argument.
Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#70 - 2012-04-26 07:03:19 UTC
Vito Antonio wrote:
Im for active skill training bonus.
Like pay 1.000.000 isk per hour for +50% training speed. 10.000.000 per hour for +75% speed increase and 100.000.000 per hour for +100% speed increase.


Obviously it will in addition solve the isk inflation problem.


Speaking as someone who buys PLEX, I wish I could slap you through the internet.

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21
Elsbeth Taron
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#71 - 2012-04-26 07:19:52 UTC
Eve doesn't have grinding?

Running missions is grinding.

Ratting in belts/anomolies is grinding.

Mining is grinding.

Eve has a serious amount of grinding already in it. Without it people would be soon flying reapers as the isk runs out. Why are so many people in this topic posting like it doesn't exist in this game? Do they even know the game being discussed?
Golden Duck
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#72 - 2012-04-26 08:32:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Golden Duck
Yeah, there are tons of grinding already.
But older Veteran players dont see it as grinding since they can do it all so easy.
And even IF there was some kind of active skill training implemented that gives u a few hours less skill training time
each week by doing ..something.. doesn't force anyone to actually do it.
But there should be something that rewards active players..

Veteran players like Zhilia Mann needs to open their eyes just a little bit, and think of the greater good of the game.
In ALL other MMO'S new patches comes out, and older players that played since release might think its unfair since they worked hard to get the gear and items they got, because suddenly max level is raised and their current gear isn't worth much at all.
But they do have a easier way to get the better gear since they already have some of the best gear.

So implementing a system that might increase some training time in the beginning of this game doesn't really
affect older players at all. BUT it helps ALL new players to progress faster, and also will get more players to the game.

Why don't the veteran players come with a good explanation to why there shouldn't be
a system that rewards activity and new players??
Because i haven't seen a single good argument from all the veteran players yet.

IF you are traveling around or work a lot and don't have much time to play, is it really fair that u get more ISK,
and more skills than new players that play every day for many hours???
Shouldn't punish new players just because you cant play as much, its a stupid reason.
Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#73 - 2012-04-26 09:01:38 UTC
Golden Duck wrote:
Blanket statement about Veteran players.


As a young pilot (having roughly six months of SP), still no.

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21
Elsbeth Taron
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#74 - 2012-04-26 09:11:36 UTC
Halete wrote:
Golden Duck wrote:
Blanket statement about Veteran players.


As a young pilot (having roughly six months of SP), still no.


Lying about the time spent in eve to justify a short two-worded opinion doesn't give any credibility whatsoever. Giving a rational reason might, but in that respect I think you've already shot your bolt. So: who's your main character?
Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#75 - 2012-04-26 09:17:52 UTC
Elsbeth Taron wrote:
Halete wrote:
Golden Duck wrote:
Blanket statement about Veteran players.


As a young pilot (having roughly six months of SP), still no.


Lying about the time spent in eve to justify a short two-worded opinion doesn't give any credibility whatsoever. Giving a rational reason might, but in that respect I think you've already shot your bolt. So: who's your main character?


Lying? Okay, that's grand.

I've previous posts in this thread and I also echo what other people are saying (that I do not wish to waste space by reposting), so it's hardly a two word opinion. You could at least put that much effort into looking before posting a response.

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#76 - 2012-04-26 10:07:01 UTC
Azemar wrote:



Again i'll reiterate that I don't have a system down to a science. This is simply an idea. I am not vouching (nor have i in this thread) for the ability to max everything in a certain time period. I agree you should never be able to max everything out, maybe in a lifetime i guess?

All I am saying is that there should be a way for me to actively train a skill using isk or time (or both) without meta like buying a character.

I'll give an example:
Say someone lives in null sec and wants to begin mining without depending on others (solo). This isn't possible (without extreme inconvenience) unless you have a hulk. That person (assuming no prior skill) is forced to wait a minimum of about a month and a half. They should be able to make that go faster.



You want a way to spend Isk to train skills faster?

YOU GOT IT!

Ladies and Gentlemen, step right up, and BE AMAZED!
Right here in your local Jita-Mart, we have exactly what you need!

Learning implants of all attributes and bonuses, ready for implantation through a simple do-it-yourself brain surgery kit.
Prices are low, and your speed learning starts as soon as you pay.
Get in that carrier faster with Jita-Mart brand Implants!

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2012-04-26 10:22:32 UTC
Amusing enough, but just gently pointing out that you still can't catch up to old players with the same implants before some 'active training' zealot assails you with some bravado.

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21
Orlacc
#78 - 2012-04-26 15:30:53 UTC
Elf game that way -------------------------------->

"Measure Twice, Cut Once."
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#79 - 2012-04-26 16:33:40 UTC
Golden Duck wrote:
Veteran players like Zhilia Mann needs to open their eyes just a little bit, and think of the greater good of the game.
In ALL other MMO'S new patches comes out, and older players that played since release might think its unfair since they worked hard to get the gear and items they got, because suddenly max level is raised and their current gear isn't worth much at all.
But they do have a easier way to get the better gear since they already have some of the best gear.

So implementing a system that might increase some training time in the beginning of this game doesn't really
affect older players at all. BUT it helps ALL new players to progress faster, and also will get more players to the game.

Why don't the veteran players come with a good explanation to why there shouldn't be
a system that rewards activity and new players??
Because i haven't seen a single good argument from all the veteran players yet.


There's a lot in here: an ad hominem attack, a comparison to other games that in no way parallel EVE, and an attempt to shift the burden of proof. Oh, there's also an unfounded claim that faster new player progression is a way (or maybe the best way, or maybe the only way, it's unclear) to help EVE grow and thrive. It's not a very good showing. But I'm going to rise to the bait anyhow and at least address -- again -- why this is based on unsound premises. And I'll just go ahead and use this as a jumping off point:

Golden Duck wrote:
IF you are traveling around or work a lot and don't have much time to play, is it really fair that u get more ISK,
and more skills than new players that play every day for many hours???
Shouldn't punish new players just because you cant play as much, its a stupid reason.


As a new player, I had a pretty patchy play schedule. I worked -- a lot. I had to travel -- a lot. It's almost a relief to "only" be in law school now and have to time run my mouth on the forums and, you know, occasionally even play.

And do you know what kept me in the game? The fact that I didn't have to grind to keep up. EVE was the one and only game where I could set a skill and walk away for days at a time -- time after time -- without any major consequence. It didn't really matter that I couldn't play as much as I would have liked because my character was still training (albeit at a **** rate because I didn't exactly understand the consequences of starting attributes). I kept with EVE because training didn't involve grinding.

And does that mean I never had to grind anything? No, I never said that. When low sec mining/ratting is your major source of income, you're often short of ISK. And getting it was a grind. But skill training wasn't.

The problem with introducing a skill grind, even a minimal one, is that it actually eliminates one of EVE's unique selling points. It has absolutely nothing to do with keeping new players down. If new players don't want to spend the time developing their own characters, there are plenty on market to do any job they might want. Grind the ISK (or buy it with PLEX for all I care). But if you do want to train up your own character, you can, and you can do it without feeling obligated to do activity x on a schedule of y per time period z.

That's why it's a bad idea. Ball's in your court. Make an actual argument for me, ok?
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#80 - 2012-04-26 17:03:40 UTC
Halete wrote:
Amusing enough, but just gently pointing out that you still can't catch up to old players with the same implants before some 'active training' zealot assails you with some bravado.


And I would respond with the fact that you can, fairly quickly catch up to the old players.

Just not all on one character.

Make a frigate specialist, and you can fly ALL frigates exactly as well as old players in 6 months or so.
Make a separate cruiser specialist, and you'll be able to fly each race's cruisers perfectly with maybe 9 months training for the first race, then ~2 for each one after that.
Battleships will take a little while, but only around a year for the first race and ~4 months for each after that.
A perfect carrier pilot is doable in 18 months, with a perfect super pilot taking less than 2 months longer.
A perfect miner or trader is dead easy by comparison at maybe 6 months and 6 weeks, respectively.

Now to me, this all sounds expensive and looks like it requires a fair amount of effort, so I'd say that it fits the bill for an active skill gain schema.

So, you can assemble, like Voltron, a collection of characters that makes you exactly as powerful as the oldest of characters, just not as versatile in some ways, but more versatile in other ways, since maybe you leave one character making money when the rest go off and do cool (read: expensive) things.

But then, specialization always comes up in these "debates" and even if I pointed out that this toon can fly a few ships significantly better than nonamium who recently finished training L5 spaceship command (the category, not the skill), I would likely be ignored by those zealots who have decided that your SP total actually limits what you can do in the game.

NB: All of the times above are 1st order estimates, based on my recollection of the training times of relevant l5 skills.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon