These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

The Thing That is Wrong With Eve
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#41 - 2012-04-24 03:27:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
scooter Kondur wrote:
CCP can not institute a series of rules that are contrary to the laws by which it is governed itself.
Yes they can.

More to the point, though, since you missed the key part: they're not a government. Consequently, they are not governed by the law that provides you with free speech, so even if they were limited the way you wished they were, they still wouldn't be constrained by the laws in question.

Again, the only right you have around here is the right to close your account.
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#42 - 2012-04-24 03:33:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Lapine Davion
Tippia wrote:
scooter Kondur wrote:
CCP can not institute a series of rules that are contrary to the laws by which it is governed itself.
Yes they can.

More to the point, though, since you missed the key part: they're not a government. Consequently, they are not governed by the law that provides you with free speech, so even if they were limited the way you wished they were, they still wouldn't be constrained by the laws in question.

Again, the only right you have around here is the right to close your account.


scoot, Tippia is right. A private organization can do whatever it wants as far as free speech goes. The only thing your agreement with the EULA guarantees you is the right to close your account at any time.

Edit: CCP also has that same right.

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
scooter Kondur
Doomheim
#43 - 2012-04-24 03:34:03 UTC
Tippia wrote:
scooter Kondur wrote:
CCP can not institute a series of rules that are contrary to the laws by which it is governed itself.
Yes they can.

More to the point, though, since you missed the key part: they're not a government. Consequently, they are not governed by the law that provides you with free speech, so even if they were limited the way you wished they were, they still wouldn't be constrained by the laws in question.


Tippia, no they can't. CCP can't make you sign an agreement into slavery either. (insert joke on grinding missions and mining here) They can include any sort of waiver of certain rights (as do many employers) but this isn't even the same thing and more likelly then not would even be enforceable. The point is and the one that always seems to escape you (because you are short sighted and lack common sense) is that it doesn't matter what is but what ought to be. And this is a bigger societal problem at any rate where mob mentality dictates policy which denies basic human rights. If you are arguing that because CCP is a big company they can do whatever they want, then you are clearly wrong.
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#44 - 2012-04-24 03:35:58 UTC
scooter Kondur wrote:
Tippia wrote:
scooter Kondur wrote:
CCP can not institute a series of rules that are contrary to the laws by which it is governed itself.
Yes they can.

More to the point, though, since you missed the key part: they're not a government. Consequently, they are not governed by the law that provides you with free speech, so even if they were limited the way you wished they were, they still wouldn't be constrained by the laws in question.


Tippia, no they can't. CCP can't make you sign an agreement into slavery either. (insert joke on grinding missions and mining here) They can include any sort of waiver of certain rights (as do many employers) but this isn't even the same thing and more likelly then not would even be enforceable. The point is and the one that always seems to escape you (because you are short sighted and lack common sense) is that it doesn't matter what is but what ought to be. And this is a bigger societal problem at any rate where mob mentality dictates policy which denies basic human rights. If you are arguing that because CCP is a big company they can do whatever they want, then you are clearly wrong.


They can't do whatever they want because they are a big company. But they can restrict your speech as they see fit.

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
scooter Kondur
Doomheim
#45 - 2012-04-24 03:38:17 UTC
Lapine Davion wrote:
scooter Kondur wrote:
Tippia wrote:
scooter Kondur wrote:
CCP can not institute a series of rules that are contrary to the laws by which it is governed itself.
Yes they can.

More to the point, though, since you missed the key part: they're not a government. Consequently, they are not governed by the law that provides you with free speech, so even if they were limited the way you wished they were, they still wouldn't be constrained by the laws in question.


Tippia, no they can't. CCP can't make you sign an agreement into slavery either. (insert joke on grinding missions and mining here) They can include any sort of waiver of certain rights (as do many employers) but this isn't even the same thing and more likelly then not would even be enforceable. The point is and the one that always seems to escape you (because you are short sighted and lack common sense) is that it doesn't matter what is but what ought to be. And this is a bigger societal problem at any rate where mob mentality dictates policy which denies basic human rights. If you are arguing that because CCP is a big company they can do whatever they want, then you are clearly wrong.


They can't do whatever they want because they are a big company. But they can restrict your speech as they see fit.


Even if this were true, and this is the point, they shouldn't.
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#46 - 2012-04-24 03:39:30 UTC
scooter Kondur wrote:
Lapine Davion wrote:
scooter Kondur wrote:
Tippia wrote:
scooter Kondur wrote:
CCP can not institute a series of rules that are contrary to the laws by which it is governed itself.
Yes they can.

More to the point, though, since you missed the key part: they're not a government. Consequently, they are not governed by the law that provides you with free speech, so even if they were limited the way you wished they were, they still wouldn't be constrained by the laws in question.


Tippia, no they can't. CCP can't make you sign an agreement into slavery either. (insert joke on grinding missions and mining here) They can include any sort of waiver of certain rights (as do many employers) but this isn't even the same thing and more likelly then not would even be enforceable. The point is and the one that always seems to escape you (because you are short sighted and lack common sense) is that it doesn't matter what is but what ought to be. And this is a bigger societal problem at any rate where mob mentality dictates policy which denies basic human rights. If you are arguing that because CCP is a big company they can do whatever they want, then you are clearly wrong.


They can't do whatever they want because they are a big company. But they can restrict your speech as they see fit.


Even if this were true, and this is the point, they shouldn't.


Well of course they (theoretically) shouldn't. But that isn't reality. They can, it is in their best interests to do so.

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
scooter Kondur
Doomheim
#47 - 2012-04-24 03:42:35 UTC  |  Edited by: scooter Kondur
It isn't in their best interests to do so. The whole point of this game and meta game is risk/reward/consequences. If you start messing around with what sort of meta gaming you are allowed to do then you are going to change this game to the point where it isn't enjoyable.

Further you are setting precedents for what types of intervention will be consider acceptable. It is a slippery slope that should be avoided altogether.
Ai Shun
#48 - 2012-04-24 03:44:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Ai Shun
scooter Kondur wrote:
Tippia, no they can't. CCP can't make you sign an agreement into slavery either.


No, they can't. You can however offer the agreement. It is up to you to sign it or not sign it. Of course, for such a hyperbolic, ludicrous example you'd expect they'd never be able to enforce it; but for simple matters requiring a code of conduct that you are expected to obey? Of course they can. It is your choice and your right to accept their rules.

scooter Kondur wrote:
It isn't in their best interests to do so. The whole point of this game and meta game is risk/reward/consequences. If you start messing around with what sort of meta gaming you are allowed to do then you are going to change this game to the point where it isn't enjoyable.


How can you say this with a straight face when you want(ed) all the Goons banned from the game?
scooter Kondur
Doomheim
#49 - 2012-04-24 03:55:06 UTC
Ai Shun wrote:
scooter Kondur wrote:
Tippia, no they can't. CCP can't make you sign an agreement into slavery either.


No, they can't. You can however offer the agreement. It is up to you to sign it or not sign it. Of course, for such a hyperbolic, ludicrous example you'd expect they'd never be able to enforce it; but for simple matters requiring a code of conduct that you are expected to obey? Of course they can. It is your choice and your right to accept their rules.

scooter Kondur wrote:
It isn't in their best interests to do so. The whole point of this game and meta game is risk/reward/consequences. If you start messing around with what sort of meta gaming you are allowed to do then you are going to change this game to the point where it isn't enjoyable.


How can you say this with a straight face when you want(ed) all the Goons banned from the game?


As always it doesn't matter how serious or not you are being the points that are trying to be made always get lost no matter how many times they are spelled out nut I will try again.

Do I honestly care about goons, no never. Do I care about Jita burning? No why would I it is a game. Do I think the group on the whole are absolutely unimpressive and uninspired, yes. does it matter what I think on that matter - no matter what side I am on, no.

Point is the infringement of free speech because a bunch of cry babies don't like the way you are playing the game, who go so far as to your removal of it is not cool. As a blunt analogy, you are murdered for your views on religion in some country some place. Same thing, period. CCP should not be bowing down to the masses not just because it is will change the game but it has the potential to destroy it.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#50 - 2012-04-24 04:02:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
scooter Kondur wrote:
Tippia, no they can't.
Of course they can. You're just confused about what their jurisdiction is.

They can limit you in any way they like within the realm of their services. As long as they can make a case that you are fully cognizant of these limitations and the service you purchase for your money, they can do whatever catches their fancy. You can always try to claim afterwards that you did not get what you paid or signed up for (or thought you signed up for, although that is usually a much more problematic case), but that's a matter of contract law and the agreement between two private entities. It is not a matter of what rights your government reserves for you.

Quote:
CCP can't make you sign an agreement into slavery either.
That's because your life does not exist within the service they provide. Your right to use their communication features to express things they do not want you to express is somewhere between zilch and nil for the exact opposite reason: because it does exist within the service they provide. You are entirely free not to make use of this service, should you feel the need to say something they refuse to let you say. If you do sign that agreement, though, then they are no longer forcing you when they restrict what you're allowed to express.

Quote:
The point is and the one that always seems to escape you is that it doesn't matter what is but what ought to be.
…and what it is (and ought to be) is that they adjudicate over the messages being published through the medium they control. This includes shoving a sock down your throat when you start spewing nonsense. Doing so does not in any way impinge on your free speech — you are still just as free to make the same loud noises, just not using the soap box they provide.

The human rights you speak of are rights provided and protected (or not) by governments, not by private companies. You are deeply confused about what freedom of speech means.

Quote:
Point is the infringement of free speech because a bunch of cry babies don't like the way you are playing the game, who go so far as to your removal of it is not cool.
No, the point is that no such infringement is taking place here.
Ai Shun
#51 - 2012-04-24 04:09:51 UTC
scooter Kondur wrote:
...

Do I honestly care about goons, no never. Do I care about Jita burning? No why would I it is a game. Do I think the group on the whole are absolutely unimpressive and uninspired, yes. does it matter what I think on that matter - no matter what side I am on, no.

Point is the infringement of free speech because a bunch of cry babies don't like the way you are playing the game, who go so far as to your removal of it is not cool. ...


scooter Kondur wrote:
operationget goons out of eve is a grassroots movement to get ccp to perma ban all goon and goon like activiteis from eve


From here.

scooter Kondur wrote:
cant wait till they get banned here, days are obv numbered


From here

etc. So again - you actively call for the banning of a number of players because you dislike how they play the game. Yet, when you feel your freedom to call for people to break a Non-disclosure Agreement is being infringed (Or whatever it is that you have your panties in a twist about this time) you think there should be some form of protection ...
scooter Kondur
Doomheim
#52 - 2012-04-24 04:26:24 UTC
Ai Shun wrote:
scooter Kondur wrote:
...

Do I honestly care about goons, no never. Do I care about Jita burning? No why would I it is a game. Do I think the group on the whole are absolutely unimpressive and uninspired, yes. does it matter what I think on that matter - no matter what side I am on, no.

Point is the infringement of free speech because a bunch of cry babies don't like the way you are playing the game, who go so far as to your removal of it is not cool. ...


scooter Kondur wrote:
operationget goons out of eve is a grassroots movement to get ccp to perma ban all goon and goon like activiteis from eve


From here.

scooter Kondur wrote:
cant wait till they get banned here, days are obv numbered


From here

etc. So again - you actively call for the banning of a number of players because you dislike how they play the game. Yet, when you feel your freedom to call for people to break a Non-disclosure Agreement is being infringed (Or whatever it is that you have your panties in a twist about this time) you think there should be some form of protection ...




Let's put a different Avatar in place of mine and see if that changes how you read any of what is being said?

Goons:

Do you think at all that any sort of ranting about the Goons are going to get them all banned. If so please outline the scenario in which it is possible. If you are still unable to see the irony please try again.

NDA:

What can you say. In light of the number of threads about Dust 514 I am truly surprised that no one can appreciate the beauty and irony in that one as well. NDA? What can you say?
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#53 - 2012-04-24 04:31:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Mars Theran
Tippia wrote:
scooter Kondur wrote:
Tippia, no they can't.
Of course they can. You're just confused about what their jurisdiction is

They can limit you in any way they like within the realm of their services. As long as they can make a case that you are fully cognizant of these limitations and the service you purchase for your money, they can do whatever catches their fancy. You can always try to claim afterwards that you did not get what you paid or signed up for (or thought you signed up for, although that is usually a much more problematic case), but that's a matter of contract law and the agreement between two private entities. It is not a matter of what rights your government reserves for you

Quote:
CCP can't make you sign an agreement into slavery either.
That's because your life does not exist within the service they provide. Your right to use their communication features to express things they do not want you to express is somewhere between zilch and nil for the exact opposite reason: because it does exist within the service they provide. You are entirely free not to make use of this service, should you feel the need to say something they refuse to let you say. If you do sign that agreement, though, then they are no longer forcing you when they restrict what you're allowed to express

Quote:
The point is and the one that always seems to escape you is that it doesn't matter what is but what ought to be.
…and what it is (and ought to be) is that they adjudicate over the messages being published through the medium they control. This includes shoving a sock down your throat when you start spewing nonsense. Doing so does not in any way impinge on your free speech — you are still just as free to make the same loud noises, just not using the soap box they provide

The human rights you speak of are rights provided and protected (or not) by governments, not by private companies. You are deeply confused about what freedom of speech means

Quote:
Point is the infringement of free speech because a bunch of cry babies don't like the way you are playing the game, who go so far as to your removal of it is not cool.
No, the point is that no such infringement is taking place here.


You sure do argue a lot for someone who should have the sense to stop while they are ahead. Scooter is quite adamant in retaining his own personal views and he is entitled to them. It isn't ignorance of the rules or law that is keeping him on this, it is his own stubborn refusal to believe that it should be any way but the way he thinks it should be

Nothing wrong with this really, unless he decides to start killing people, planting bombs, or harrassing someone or anyone about it. So far he hasn't done anything of the sort that I've noticed and has made every effort to let you all know that he isn't judging you or saying your views are wrong

He's just reiterating a point and waiting to see if you'll catch on and let him have it

Anyway.. I'd hardly call it trolling. I can't even find a single shred of anything from either of you to argue with.

P.S. we don't have freedom of speech in Canada. In fact, the US has much more support for Human Rights than we do here. The difference is that Canadians as a whole either don't see it, refuse to admit it for fear of reprisal, or don't see it as a problem. Fact is, if you tried to fight for your basic Human right to do anything here, it'd be a 50-50 chance you'd win or lose

You might actually win, provided you were fighting for something that was widely agreed on, but don't expect you'd get any support for it until you were fighting and beginning to win, excepting of course the pot-smoking freedom movement or whatever that is.

They protest anything and support anything and get thrown in jail for it without a thought provided it is generally held within their views of being right. Of course, nobody pays attention to them and protesters are thrown in jail regularly without much comment. Quite often I understand, they are beaten and bloodied in the process of arrest too. Not much comment on that either

Free country

There isn't a place on Earth that is truly free and there never will be. That's not a bad thing. Imagine the difficulty of living somewhere people had the ability to do whatever they wanted without consequence until someone fought back or prevented them from doing it by exercising there own ability to do what they wanted and happened to be in disagreement with that person

Not really freedom then either is it, and strangely or not, that is how we arrived where we are at.

It's not even ironic, sadly. It's just a progression from where we were to where we are. Even if we started over, we would just end up being somewhere more or less like here again.
zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
scooter Kondur
Doomheim
#54 - 2012-04-24 04:37:47 UTC

Quote:
Point is the infringement of free speech because a bunch of cry babies don't like the way you are playing the game, who go so far as to your removal of it is not cool.
No, the point is that no such infringement is taking place here.[/quote]

It is. If you are unable to see that then it is lost on you. If you are unable to see the consequences then sadly that is lost on you as well.

You can spout all you like but fact is that companies and still have to follow the law of the land and yes there are reasonable limits that can be imposed (or self imposed) but no court is going to uphold an egregious arrangement. I don't think EVE is entering a totalitarian state, but given what the Eve community is/as I don't like the direction it is headed in and neither should you.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#55 - 2012-04-24 04:52:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
scooter Kondur wrote:
It is.
No, it's not.

What laws has CCP passed that restricts your ability or reduces your right to express yourself?
What measures has CCP taken to editorialise your input in all forms of media?
What measures has CCP taken to restrict people from accessing venues you frequent?
What equipment has CCP seized to prevent you from spreading your ideas?

The answer to all of the above is, obviously, “none”. They cannot pass any laws. They do not have any control over all media. They do not control the access to all physical and virtual venues. They do not have a 451-like cadre of firemen that break down your door and smash your computers/printing press/recorder/chisel and stone tablets.

You are still as free as ever to express what you want to express. CCP can just choose not to let you use their media to do so, as is their right as the publishers of those media and as delineated in the contract you've entered with them.

Quote:
You can spout all you like but fact is that companies and still have to follow the law of the land
…and the fact remains: the law of the land is that companies are not governed by the laws that ensure free speech — the government is. CCP is not a government. They can restrict your ability to use them as a soap box as much as they'd like. Just like they cannot force you to sign away your life, you cannot force them to provide you with a soap box from which you can scream about… whatever it is you want to scream about.
Ai Shun
#56 - 2012-04-24 04:55:44 UTC
scooter Kondur wrote:
You can spout all you like but fact is that companies and still have to follow the law of the land and yes there are reasonable limits that can be imposed (or self imposed) but no court is going to uphold an egregious arrangement. I don't think EVE is entering a totalitarian state, but given what the Eve community is/as I don't like the direction it is headed in and neither should you.


This is a very different scooter ... I like this one more. Please post more like this.

So here is a question then - what about evolution in a community? You speak of this community as if it is a cohesive, semi-sentient entity. If we treat it as such and it has a change of mind and starts moving in a different direction; should the person feeding it assist? Or use the rod to keep it where they wanted it in the first place?

It almost makes me wonder who owns EVE Online. If it is us, the players, the community (Or society if you like) determines what is acceptable to them. If it is CCP, well, then the decision is theirs - is it not?
scooter Kondur
Doomheim
#57 - 2012-04-24 04:56:08 UTC
Tippia wrote:
scooter Kondur wrote:
It is.
No, it's not.

What laws has CCP passed that restricts your ability or reduces your right to express yourself?
What measures has CCP taken to editorialise your input in all forms of media?
What measures has CCP taken to restrict people from accessing venues you frequent?
What equipment has CCP seized to prevent you from spreading your ideas?

The answer to all of the above is, obviously, “none”. You are still as free as ever to express what you want to express. CCP can just choose not to let you use their media to do so, as is their right as the publishers of those media and as delineated in the contract you've entered with them.

Quote:
You can spout all you like but fact is that companies and still have to follow the law of the land
…and the fact remains: the law of the land is that companies are not governed by the laws that ensure free speech — the government is. CCP is not a government. They can restrict your ability to use them as a soap box as much as they'd like. Just like they cannot force you to sign away your life, you cannot force them to provide you with a soap box from which you can scream about… whatever it is you want to scream about.


Medium is the message.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#58 - 2012-04-24 05:00:19 UTC
scooter Kondur wrote:
Medium is the message.
No. A medium is a medium. A message is a message. One may carry the other but they are not the same.


…and your freedom of speech is not being infringed upon by CCP. To claim so is absurd and completely confuses what free speech is, and what the right to it actually entails.
Jackal Datapaw
Doomheim
#59 - 2012-04-24 05:01:16 UTC
I just want to make a point, freedom of speech, everyone has it, but there is always consequences for said actions.

For example, if you scream out fire in a theater, you get removed from the theater for life, it cause it private property.

The forums, and this game is still technically private property, as CCP owns the servers the game and site is running on, so if you start to abuse said freedom it rather simple, you get removed.

That is all, I just wanted to put that out there =)

commonly suggest cloaking and local ideas

scooter Kondur
Doomheim
#60 - 2012-04-24 05:23:09 UTC
Ai Shun wrote:
scooter Kondur wrote:
You can spout all you like but fact is that companies and still have to follow the law of the land and yes there are reasonable limits that can be imposed (or self imposed) but no court is going to uphold an egregious arrangement. I don't think EVE is entering a totalitarian state, but given what the Eve community is/as I don't like the direction it is headed in and neither should you.


This is a very different scooter ... I like this one more. Please post more like this.

So here is a question then - what about evolution in a community? You speak of this community as if it is a cohesive, semi-sentient entity. If we treat it as such and it has a change of mind and starts moving in a different direction; should the person feeding it assist? Or use the rod to keep it where they wanted it in the first place?

It almost makes me wonder who owns EVE Online. If it is us, the players, the community (Or society if you like) determines what is acceptable to them. If it is CCP, well, then the decision is theirs - is it not?


I think similar sort of interplay happens when one considers immigration. If you open the flood gates the community which change too much to fast but kept closed it will die. Does the community as a whole have a right to determine who the new members are? As the parents do we get to decide? Clearly with out CCP there would be no players and vice versa. I don't know, probably the answer is somewhere in the middle ground.