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Virtual Psychopathy in New Eden

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Zulran Hans
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#181 - 2012-04-23 10:31:33 UTC
Serene Repose wrote:


The OP "seems" to make sense if one applies a mass-media acquired understanding of the elements he/she chooses to address.

The big HOWEVER to all this is, fortunately (or no), nobody's exiting reality to boot this game. Everyone is as ensconced in this time/space frame as they were before they clicked that icon. Furthermore, if anyone believes they ARE in another reality (virtual, or no) when they enter the game, there's a diagnosis for that as well.

Absolving themselves from the consequences of their acts because people choose to imagine that nothing "real" is happening anyway is merely a form of self-delusion, and anyone who feels that's a necessary step to take before engaging in immoral or unethical behavior at least has the virtue of realizing it is a step from civil behavior into uncivil behavior.

Quite literally, it is a step from cerebral cortex mitigated behavior into reptilian stem behavior, or a giant leap into the animalistic past.

The OP seems to confuse psychopathy with anti-social personality disorder. Though the two are related in many ways, the psychopathy is expressed in many different disorders. ASPD is expressed in many different ways. It used to be called sociopathy, and was associated strictly with violent criminals that had no remorse for their activities.

However, the science has come to accept this behavior isn't limited to serial killers. It's found in the wide spectrum of societal positions as defined by activities, from the board room to the construction site if you will...and yes, in EVE, as well.



Part of an excellent comment by Serene Repose ( see post #22)


It really got me thinking about Empathy.

If I scam or destroy defenseless miners, then claim it's just pixels, nothing "real" is happening,
I'm actually deluding myself.

Because my fun, my emotion of doing those acts is "real" and valuable to me,
otherwise I wouldn't have done them in the first place.

That means the emotion of the victims is just as "real" and as valuable as mine.

I might try to justify it what I do.

I can call the victim "stupid", "noob," or "carebear" who doesn't play the game as good as me.
I can say I'm teaching him a lesson.
I can construct whatever creative reasons for why he deserves to be scammed or destroyed.

Those might even be true.
But this isn't about him, is it..
It's about me losing my empathy.


The amazing thing about EVE is that it is an open-ended universe,
we can make it as cruel or as honorable a universe as we like.

I can get ISK without scamming.
I can experience a more challenging PvP in tournaments or wars, against combat-ready opponents,
ones that actually can and willing to fight back.

There's one more thing I can try to tell myself,
"I'm not like this in real life.. It's not me.."

Yes, my decisions in EVE may be virtual, but the decision-making process is not.
There is something in me that accept those decisions..

I guess, at least in that sense, EVE is real after all.. :)





Serene Repose
#182 - 2012-04-23 11:05:14 UTC
And, Zulran breaks the code. (Thanks for the good word, btw.)

The psychological reaction you're after by your actions in the "virtual" world is real. The reason you're taking these actions is to achieve this reaction. Those reasons are real, too, if only to you. You are causing the actions to occur using your hands, eyes, brain...all real (on most people.) Claiming pixels on a screen suddenly makes it all "not real" is either untrue, or delusional, depending on what you really really know inside as opposed to what you feel compelled to assert in this forum, or conversationally, or to yourself as you do these things.

To quote Bob Marley, "You can't run away from yourself."

Zulran's point about "empathy" is the key to this issue. To empathize requires using the cerebral cortex. Those who use the cerebral cortex have formed neural pathways (unbeknownst to them) which route firing synapses through it. Once these are established it takes a gargantuan effort to reroute them. When situations arise which allow for sympathy or empathy, your brain takes off firing synapses up these pathways whether you want it to or not. You can't "not" do it.

Sociopaths, or people with ASPD, don't have neural pathways routed through the cerebral cortex. Their impulse/action synapse firing route is largely contained within the reptilian stem at the base of the brain. They cannot "not" do that by exercise of will, wishing, or anything else. Creating neural pathways that travel into the cerebral cortex as a solution to ASPD is theoretical at present. A handful of people are scrapping for funding for moving it to the experimental phase.

This is why it's pointless to point-out to someone with ASPD that they're exhibiting signs of ASPD. It has no meaning to them. It's also why people who don't have it have a very difficult time understanding how those who do can behave the way they do.

You can't know what you've never experienced.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.

Basileus Volkan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#183 - 2012-04-23 13:05:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Basileus Volkan
Feeling empathy is usually reserved for face-to-face interactions, not the pretty much completely detached environment of EvE Online. Are there lines that should not be crossed, even within the game? Probably. Scamming a faceless mark or blowing up a random miner however are well below that line. In fact, where do you draw the line in the first place? When do interactions inside the game become morally wrong outside of it? Every time someone might feel hurt? Then the game becomes impossible to play.

I'd go as far as to say that empathy, as applied to a random person within the game, is probably more Weltschmerz than anything else.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#184 - 2012-04-23 13:09:01 UTC
Klandi wrote:
And to answer your question

Do YOU think you are a bad person?
Not at all.
CCP Phantom
C C P
C C P Alliance
#185 - 2012-04-23 13:23:34 UTC
Off topic and spam posts removed. Please remember to be on topic and polite, thank you.

Moved from EVE General Discussion.

CCP Phantom - Senior Community Developer

Serene Repose
#186 - 2012-04-23 18:11:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Serene Repose
Basileus Volkan wrote:
Feeling empathy is usually reserved for face-to-face interactions, not the pretty much completely detached environment of EvE Online. Are there lines that should not be crossed, even within the game? Probably. Scamming a faceless mark or blowing up a random miner however are well below that line. In fact, where do you draw the line in the first place? When do interactions inside the game become morally wrong outside of it? Every time someone might feel hurt? Then the game becomes impossible to play.

I'd go as far as to say that empathy, as applied to a random person within the game, is probably more Weltschmerz than anything else.

Au contraire mon ami. Such is not the case. Being face to face with someone is not solely a trigger for empathetic or sympathetic reaction. All that is required is knowing a person is there. I'd hasten to add "complete detachment" is a discipline few achieve, and those who do achieve it do so with great rigor and discipline which take years to master.

Objectivizing people, turning people from "people" to "objects" is precisely what the psychopath does. It is a hallmark of the serial killer. We don't have the privilege of drawing any lines, as this isn't a matter of conjecture or opinion. Weltschmerz - physical reality can never satisfy the demands of the mind - is a philosophical opinion. There are disciplines centuries old which bring into balance the mind and body - the mind demanding anything being anathema. And, of course, "morality" can best be defined as divine law.

Where you draw a line in behavior has more to do with what kind of "world" do you want to live in? To obtain a civilized world, setting at bay "might is right" for its destructive barbarity, mankind has come to agree upon certain things and to accept them as truth. "Thou shalt not kill" is in some form present in every civilization and religion, for instance. The concept of private property is as well. "This is mine," is also a concept some civilizations do not contain, such as the Bushmen of the Kalahari.

It's safe to say people playing EVE pretty much have an internal attachment to, and cultural priority with Western Civilization. This, in large part (like it or not) sprang from the Judeo-Christian ethos. Someone who's aware of ideas like, "love your enemies, love your neighbor as you do yourself, and do good to those who would spitefully use you" can be expected to recoil at some of the practices in EVE.

Not to put too fine a point on it - no disrespect intended - the Icelandic crowd who brought us this game in all likelihood can trace their ancestery and heritage back to the Vikings of old - quite a different cultural tradition than the English, or French. Yet, don't be surprised if people recoil at "might is right." Whether anyone admits it or not, that's the basis for the behavior in question. Whether an empathetic ethos is more amenable to us as a species (or not) is a relatively new idea in the history of our species.

It's easy to be against war if you've burned your continent down around your ears three or four times. Being for peace because it seems like a good idea on its own? It's said that's "saintly" thinking. This culture despises saints. Why wouldn't EVE be the way it is, then, considering the culture.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.

Easley Thames
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#187 - 2012-04-24 00:25:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Easley Thames
You are no more a psychopath for playing one in Eve than you are a miracle-worker for playing a Cleric in a fantasy MMORPG.

The people who try to categorize other players in these terms are very similar to those politicians that blame real-life violence on video games. They simply don't understand the concept of having an online persona.

In my experience, some of the most gentle people I know in real life are comparatively cruel in-game, and the opposite is also true.

I think people seek out what they don't have in their lives when they play games. It's not a reflection of what they are in real life, so much as it's a reflection of what they are curious about or find exciting.

I am of the opinion that there is a distance between the individual and the persona we perform in-game. We can be sad about our in-game misfortunes, but when we begin to react disproportionately to the loss of virtual assets, then the fault lies within ourselves - not in the person who has merely played the game against us.
Sigurd Sig Hansen
Doomheim
#188 - 2012-04-24 00:47:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Sigurd Sig Hansen
GM Homonoia wrote:

How would you like to live in a living hell? That said, as long as it remains in The Magic Circle we are very lenient in what we allow, as all of you are well aware. This does not give you the right to be anti-social just because you enjoy tormenting others.


GM Homonoia wrote:
DISCLAIMER: I will not comment in any way, shape or form on the recent events and decisions made in relation to those events. I will only clarify how customer support enforces our policies to provide clarity on the day to day application of those policies.

I am going to explain this only once; and this really should have been clear to anyone bothering to apply some common sense to the EULA/ToS.

What happens inside the The Magic Circle is allowed as long as it abides by the rules of The Magic Circle (this is why you are allowed to hit someone in a boxing match, but not outside the ring). However, as soon as any action steps outside The Magic Circle and threatens harm to anyone in real life in any way shape or form, or when you incite others to do so (or when your in game actions are specifically geared towards that, joke or no joke), you break the EULA/ToS; even if you are only stating intent.

Any GM will always take immediate action when this is done.

And for those who think they can force an in game situation out of The Magic Circle to avoid in game consequences by threatening with suicide; the GM department has a strict policy of informing local and international law enforcement agencies of any suicide threats issued NO MATTER THE CONTEXT. In other words, do NOT joke about that. When a RL life is threatened we do not take any risks, ever.


Funny that

and lol @ throwing the topic in the dungeon

Mining is the "Deadliest Catch" in this game

Serene Repose
#189 - 2012-04-24 16:50:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Serene Repose
Easley Thames wrote:
You are no more a psychopath for playing one in Eve than you are a miracle-worker for playing a Cleric in a fantasy MMORPG.

The people who try to categorize other players in these terms are very similar to those politicians that blame real-life violence on video games. They simply don't understand the concept of having an online persona.

In my experience, some of the most gentle people I know in real life are comparatively cruel in-game, and the opposite is also true.

I think people seek out what they don't have in their lives when they play games. It's not a reflection of what they are in real life, so much as it's a reflection of what they are curious about or find exciting.

I am of the opinion that there is a distance between the individual and the persona we perform in-game. We can be sad about our in-game misfortunes, but when we begin to react disproportionately to the loss of virtual assets, then the fault lies within ourselves - not in the person who has merely played the game against us.

You're missing the point. Nobody's saying "because you play EVE you're a sociopath." They're saying they see that kind of behavior in other players, and are remarking about it. Seeing "normal" people play EVE would be...unremarkable, as it were. However, the claim you can separate yourself from who or what you are in real life just because you've logged onto a video game is somewhat in dispute. Disproportionate is an arguable values term. What is one thing to you may not be to others. I never get sad if I lose something in EVE. I don't get mad. I do, however, try to get EVEn. I don't see my time and effort as being virtual any more than I see my pawns and queen in chess to be insignificant. Also, nobody's fault finding as far as I can tell. It's more an exploration of the phenomena of you being you. What is this "you"? Just because you occupy space and process oxygen doesn't mean you are also able to answer that question. Not being able to answer it could be the purpose in life we're all arguing whether exists or not...lord knows mankind has spent a few thousand years pursuing the answer. "We" come along and all of a sudden, it's a dumb question?

We must accommodate the idiocracy.

Orthaal Vornessen
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#190 - 2012-06-01 06:20:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Orthaal Vornessen
Serene Repose wrote:
Why is it the smartest people in the world always agree with me? Funny that,no?

The OP "seems" to make sense if one applies a mass-media acquired understanding of the elements he/she chooses to address. The big HOWEVER to all this is, fortunately (or no), nobody's exitting reality to boot this game. Everyone is as ensconced in this time/space frame as they were before they clicked that icon. Furthermore, if anyone believes they ARE in another reality (virtual, or no) when they enter the game, there's a diagnosis for that as well.

Absolving themselves from the consequences of their acts because people choose to imagine that nothing "real" is happening anyway is merely a form of self-delusion, and anyone who feels that's a necessary step to take before engaging in immoral or unethical behavior at least has the virtue of realizing it is a step from civil behavior into uncivil behavior. Quite literally, it is a step from cerebral cortex mitigated behavior into reptilian stem behavior, or a giant leap into the animalistic past.

The OP seems to confuse psychopathy with anti-social personality disorder. Though the two are related in many ways, the psychopathy is expressed in many different disorders. ASPD is expressed in many different ways. It used to be called sociopathy, and was associated strictly with violent criminals that had no remorse for their activities. However, the science has come to accept this behavior isn't limited to serial killers. It's found in the wide spectrum of societal positions as defined by activities, from the board room to the construction site if you will...and yes, in EVE, as well.

The truest marker of this behavior is does the activity engaged in generate activity in the frontal lobe of the brain, or can it be completed within the reptilian stem: The frontal lobe being where the "rights and wrongs" of behavior are mititgated. The reptilian stem being bereft of such considerations. The existence of remorse or feelings of "guilt" are the generally accepted markers.

One might pretend to attempt to imitate a psychopath, or ASPD, but it's difficult to be assured that being capable of such behavior on any level, under any pretense isn't symptomatic of possessing these disorders. Having a group of peers insist this is all mistaken thinking, or having the individual in question insisting it was all just pretense, or virtual, is inconsequential at best. No one possessing any of this array of disorders is likely to admit this as fact, either through ignorance, pure unawareness, or flat denial to further the aims these disorders demand.

ASPD is believed to prevail within Western society (from 60 upwards to 80% depending on what study you read) so it's not only highly unlikely, but it's rather naive as well to believe EVE doesn't have its share on a percentage basis. As the prevailing behavior exhibited by EVE players - or even the behavior celebrated by a large portion of EVE players, is precisely the type of behavior diagnosed as part of this spectrum of disorders, it would be unusual (or odd) if ASPD were not present in a density reflective of the general population.

Psychopathy, on the other hand, has a smaller spectrum insofar as is understood at present. However, it wouldn't be surprising if EVE had its fair share of those, as well. Be it ASPD or Psychopathy, it's futile to point out and castigate people for this behavior, as they are incapable of realizing or understanding the point you'd be trying to make. One must either accept its presence and live with it, or move on in hopes of finding somewhere they aren't present. Given the pervasive presence of ASPD especially, it's highly unlikely such a place exists, and if you think you've found one, you may be deluding yourself....or wishful thinking.



That makes so much sense! Genius!

magna *** laude stuff here
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