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Rifters vs Other Frigates - Other Frigates Useless?
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Aranakas
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#61 - 2012-04-11 00:35:05 UTC
Xedam Praxis wrote:
Aranakas wrote:
Xedam Praxis wrote:


Says he who posts on his alt. Crawl back under your rock troll...

On the other hand, I'm learning so much about PvP from you...this really is a pickle.


This here is an example of someone who is mad that his 10 million fit on a 300 thousand isk hull was questioned, so he resorts to ad-hominem attacks.


Keep the fight alive, man. You're winning.


You keep repeating yourself. You know repetition is one of the signs of autism.

Aranakas CEO of Green Anarchy Green vs Green
Xedam Praxis
Repo.
#62 - 2012-04-11 00:46:31 UTC
Aranakas wrote:
Xedam Praxis wrote:
Aranakas wrote:
Xedam Praxis wrote:


Says he who posts on his alt. Crawl back under your rock troll...

On the other hand, I'm learning so much about PvP from you...this really is a pickle.


This here is an example of someone who is mad that his 10 million fit on a 300 thousand isk hull was questioned, so he resorts to ad-hominem attacks.


Keep the fight alive, man. You're winning.


You keep repeating yourself. You know repetition is one of the signs of autism.


You have a hard time accepting compliments.

“The word of a gentleman is as good as his bond; and sometimes better.”

  • Charles Dickens
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#63 - 2012-04-11 00:53:02 UTC
Aranakas wrote:
Xedam Praxis wrote:


Says he who posts on his alt. Crawl back under your rock troll...

On the other hand, I'm learning so much about PvP from you...this really is a pickle.


This here is an example of someone who is mad that his 10 million fit on a 300 thousand isk hull was questioned, so he resorts to ad-hominem attacks.

Confirming that spending 10mill on a 500k isk hull instantly makes it bad.
Axel Greye
Unlikely Suspects
#64 - 2012-04-11 02:30:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Axel Greye
For those of you arguing that committing ISK to a tech 1 frigate is a bad thing to do:

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=14007423

Say what you want, but the fact is, 1v1 with no links and no logi, no cheaply fitted Rifter can outperform a faction fit daredevil. However, commit ISK to the essential elements of the Rifters combat style, such as a cheap faction afterburner+rep combo, and there are suddenly no limits as to what you can take on 1v1.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=14903768
This is how I fit my Rifter, alot of people may scoff and say what a waste of ISK, but the fact remains that ISK is mine to do as I please with, if I want to spend it on frigates and maintain a 12:1 Killboard efficiency, I will.
Flown correctly, a fit like this is more than a match for ships like Thrashers, Taranis, Jaguars, Dramiels, Daredevils and all of the Navy Faction Frigates. (1v1)

...and yeh, sorry to derail the thread with even more 1v1 talk, but people are raising an interesting argument as to whether one should commit ISK to a cheap hull. I say, if you can competently fly the hull and know how to capitalize on its advantages, there is no reason to not commit ISK to the ship.
Dibblerette
Solitude-Industries
#65 - 2012-04-11 03:00:42 UTC
Personally, I fly with a T2 loadout, and if I can look back at a loss and say "Yeah, my piloting was flawless, BUT...." then I'll consider upgrading. As a result, I stick to T2 fits for now. There's an exception for special mods on special ships (Fed navy webs on a Rapier for example) or on faction hulls, but at the end of the day I'd rather have more ships to explode in than a 1% better ship but half as many of them.

Do your own thing Cool
Axel Greye
Unlikely Suspects
#66 - 2012-04-11 03:20:40 UTC
Absolutely! it is Each to their own. Most will opt for quantity of ships over quality of fits, but as per the argument in this thread, committing ISK is a personal choice, and does not make the fit a fail-fit or the pilot a moron.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#67 - 2012-04-11 04:25:49 UTC
Aranakas wrote:
If you're going to use tech 2 and meta 4 mods, use a bloody tech 2 ship. It's not much more expensive but AT LEAST twice as powerful.


Yes, but everyone knows that, so you don't get good fights as often - depending on where you fly. I can bait interceptors and EAFs off gate camps all day long with my Rifter, Incursus, or Merlin. If I showed up in an AF, I wouldn't be able to dictate the terms of the fight as much. Most fights in Eve are over before they start - getting the enemy to engage you on your terms, or being able to put him on the horns of a dilemma is what it is all about. So, within reason, it makes sense to fit a T1 frigate as well as you can. You know it is going to die, sooner rather than later, but so will that AF.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Xedam Praxis
Repo.
#68 - 2012-04-11 16:29:48 UTC
The above comments do a good job of elaborating on what I was suggesting with this post:

Xedam Praxis wrote:

I'll drop an exorbitant 5mil if it helps me win a fight.

If a 15mil fit is breaking your wallet you can use a meta 3 MSE and keep it under 10mil; but pop 2 SAR Rifters in that Merlin and you've won the ISK war by 5mil.

You can drop the TD and save 4mil on your 12mil kiting Merlin too, and give up your tankless ship's only defence beside speed; but that's counterproductive to winning fights imo.

The "cookie cutter" Rifter comes in at around 10mil -- as do most decently fit solo T1 hulls. If you want to nitpick about 2-5 mil, I guess that's your prerogative. Meanwhile, I'll be throwing that 2-5 mil ISK at my T1 hulls to lavishly fit them for the purpose of winning fights.


PvP – especially low-sec, solo PvP – is dependent on infinitely more than a simple expensive hull = win formula. A formula like that is the thought process of someone who’s not speaking from any substantial experience. The variables and tactics one has to consider in order to be successful are numerous. Anyone with experience in the low-sec, solo PvP arena would know this and not make such an uninformed, blanket statement and try and pass it off as an absolute truth.

“The word of a gentleman is as good as his bond; and sometimes better.”

  • Charles Dickens
Megos Adriano
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2012-04-12 15:31:54 UTC
Oh for ****'s sake.

And boom goes the dynamite.
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#70 - 2012-04-12 23:40:00 UTC
Xedam Praxis wrote:


Versus a standard MSE Rifter using Barrage this fit should theoretically pop the Rifter in 33.3s, weapons overheated whereas the Rifter would take 41.4s to pop the Merlin. However, the Rifter is still faster and could potentially pull range and escape if the pilot realized he was losing in time.


How would a MSE rifter outrun a merlin with web?
Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#71 - 2012-04-13 06:58:16 UTC
If not caught in the web, yes.
Joran Dravius
Doomheim
#72 - 2012-04-13 09:02:13 UTC
Arzaiuc wrote:
Rifters are like... 1/2 the power of a faction frigate or a t2 frigate but are 1/10 the price.

They've got enough mid-slots to have prop+full tackle
They've got good dps
They have an okayish tank
They have naturally good speed

The other T1 frigates all have some downfall that make them lousy. The Punisher can't fit prop+full tackle, for example, so nobody uses it since it can't catch anything. But a Punisher could kick a Rifter's ass if, for some reason, the rifter couldn't get away.

Confirming the punisher is indestructible. I solod a badly fit ferox in one once. Took 50 years though and I'm amazed nobody interrupted the fight.
Xedam Praxis
Repo.
#73 - 2012-04-13 12:22:35 UTC
Diesel47 wrote:
Xedam Praxis wrote:


Versus a standard MSE Rifter using Barrage this fit should theoretically pop the Rifter in 33.3s, weapons overheated whereas the Rifter would take 41.4s to pop the Merlin. However, the Rifter is still faster and could potentially pull range and escape if the pilot realized he was losing in time.


How would a MSE rifter outrun a merlin with web?


In most cases it wouldn't be possible -- that's why I said "potentially". However, if the Merlin pilot was using a named web, didn't have Thermodynamics (or was close to burning out his mids) and the Rifter pilot had maxed navigation skills (or implants/boosters) it would potentially be possible even if the MSE Rifter was webbed.

Fittings usually assume maxed skills but that's rarely the case in practice. Additionally, there are so many variables that might change the way a fight takes shape.

“The word of a gentleman is as good as his bond; and sometimes better.”

  • Charles Dickens
Jokus Balim
Miner At Heart
#74 - 2012-04-13 13:17:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Jokus Balim
I had some fun with the Incursus lately. It's not the fastest, not the toughest, but it has some goddamn nasty damage potential. And a single drone. Give it a funny name and feel all warm and fuzzy for your little fellow.

No. 1: Blasters. Active tank. It's nice when you go for something big, cause that repairer will help you a lot against drones and the little damage that comes in, after you killed the drones. If you want buffer, then get a 200mm plate, though you might get some fitting troubles. Smaller guns will help, but your EFT dps will drop to 176 from 188 (all overheated).

[Incursus, Brawler]
Damage Control II
Small Armor Repairer II

1MN Afterburner II
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator

3x Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S

Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Small Anti-Kinetic Pump I
Small Anti-Explosive Pump I

Warrior II x1

No. 2: Blasters. Who needs a tank? This one is for laughs and if you have enough people that at least a few might see the end of the fight Blink Nothing says throwaway ship like the 200+ dps Incursus (EFT. And overheated, but you won't get the chance to repair those guns anyway).

[Incursus, Brawler Big Guns]
Damage Control II
Adaptive Nano Plating II

1MN Afterburner II
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator

3x Light Neutron Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S

Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I

Warrior II x1

The Incursus can have some nasty troubles with damage projection. If you go against a Rifter with similar medium slots, he might get out of blaster range and kill you with Barrage ammo. And please don't fit railguns to it. Yes, there might be viable kiting fittings for the Incursus, but it's so much more fun to go all-in wildly screaming Pirate
Alain Badiou
Combine Honnete 0ber Advancer Mercantiles
#75 - 2012-04-13 19:54:51 UTC
Dead Loss wrote:
instead of going for rofters, i would pay slightly more and go for destroyers, Thrashers.

They can deal with frig class ships, including interceptors etc.

And honestly, a fitted Thrasher, with t1/meta 2-3 modules can come to 2.5-3 mil if you do good.

A fleet of 20 of these could easily overwhelm opponents.


Confirmed this works incredibly well. Thrasher (and really all destroyer) roams are extremely fun, will get you fights and will net sometimes huge ISK k/d ratios.
Devil tiger
#76 - 2012-04-15 22:12:40 UTC
Axel Greye wrote:
For those of you arguing that committing ISK to a tech 1 frigate is a bad thing to do:

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=14007423

Say what you want, but the fact is, 1v1 with no links and no logi, no cheaply fitted Rifter can outperform a faction fit daredevil. However, commit ISK to the essential elements of the Rifters combat style, such as a cheap faction afterburner+rep combo, and there are suddenly no limits as to what you can take on 1v1.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=14903768
This is how I fit my Rifter, alot of people may scoff and say what a waste of ISK, but the fact remains that ISK is mine to do as I please with, if I want to spend it on frigates and maintain a 12:1 Killboard efficiency, I will.
Flown correctly, a fit like this is more than a match for ships like Thrashers, Taranis, Jaguars, Dramiels, Daredevils and all of the Navy Faction Frigates. (1v1)

...and yeh, sorry to derail the thread with even more 1v1 talk, but people are raising an interesting argument as to whether one should commit ISK to a cheap hull. I say, if you can competently fly the hull and know how to capitalize on its advantages, there is no reason to not commit ISK to the ship.



It's not a surprise you lost. Ishkur's drones & hybrid buff make an already decent frigate to be very formidable opponent.
Megos Adriano
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#77 - 2012-04-22 22:11:31 UTC
Thanks for all the feedback. In the end it was much more informative to do some hands on experimentation.

And boom goes the dynamite.
Mocktar Olachenko
#78 - 2012-04-23 02:53:35 UTC
Can someone enlighten me as to why so many Merlin fits in this thread and elsewhere have burst/collision rigs and mag field stabilizers? They do absolutely nothing for your rockets, so you're losing out on the full benefit of your rig/low slots.
Katalci
Kismesis
#79 - 2012-04-23 03:39:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Katalci
Samroski wrote:
Two examples of Rifter fits.

[Rifter, Passive shield tank, AB, no web]
Local Power Plant Manager: Reaction Shield Power Relay I
Local Power Plant Manager: Reaction Shield Power Relay I
Local Power Plant Manager: Reaction Shield Power Relay I

Medium Subordinate Screen Stabilizer I
Limited 1MN Afterburner I
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I

150mm Light Carbine Repeating Cannon I,Fusion S
150mm Light Carbine Repeating Cannon I,Fusion S
150mm Light Carbine Repeating Cannon I,Fusion S
Limited 'Limos' Light Missile Launcher,Mjolnir Light Missile

Small Core Defense Field Purger I
Small Core Defense Field Purger I
Small Core Defense Field Purger I

In the following armor tanked fit, you could put a 400mm plate instead of the 200mm and replace the armor rep with a hardner or reactor control unit, and put some projectile weapon rigs instead of the meh ones here, which would probably be better for PvP, as tank hardly matters in fleet battles.

Also note that 200mm autocannons may also be fit.

With the 3-3 mid-low slots architecture, you can play around a lot with this ship's fitting.

[Rifter, Armor tank, MWD]
Damage Control I
Small I-a Polarized Armor Regenerator
200mm Reinforced Steel Plates I

Upgraded 1MN Microwarpdrive I
J5 Prototype Warp Disruptor I
'Langour' Drive Disruptor I

150mm Light AutoCannon I,Fusion S
150mm Light AutoCannon I,Fusion S
150mm Light AutoCannon I,Fusion S
Limited 'Limos' Light Missile Launcher,Nova Light Missile

Small Capacitor Control Circuit I
Small Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Small Semiconductor Memory Cell I

what the **** is this

[Rifter, Solo PvP]
Small Armor Repairer II
F85 Peripheral Damage System I
Gyrostabilizer II

Limited 1MN MicroWarpdrive I
1MN Afterburner II
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I

150mm Light AutoCannon II, Barrage S
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Barrage S
150mm Light AutoCannon II, Barrage S
E5 Prototype Energy Vampire

Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Anti-Explosive Pump I
Small Projectile Ambit Extension I