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Armor Compesation skill: Active n Passive
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OmegaMahn
Guild of Independent Pilots
DammFam
#1 - 2012-04-19 17:47:29 UTC
Armor compesation skills states (for example with Thermic)

"To active armor hardeners: 3% bonus per skill level to Armor Thermal resistance when the modules are not active

To passive armor hardeners: 5% bonus per skill level to Armor Thermal resistance"

Active hardeners - I got that ....
but are Resistance plating and (or) Energized plating considered armor hardeners in the case of this skill ? (because in the market browser they are not listed under "hardeners" but under "plating")

And if they are not hardeners (as pertains to this skill) then what is a passive armor hardener ?

Thanks in advance
Wyte Ragnarok
#2 - 2012-04-19 17:53:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Wyte Ragnarok
Anything you can activate (armour resistance-wise) is a hardener. Ones you cannot activate count as the passive group. A passive resistance plate, EANM etc is not activated and does not use cap, which is their main benefit. Ideal for completely passive buffer tanks, because neuts won't cut them out.

Edit: So just to clarify, tl;dr:
Hardeners = active, cycle time, use cap
Passive = no cycle time, can't activate, no cap use
Alara IonStorm
#3 - 2012-04-19 17:54:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Resistance plating and Energized membranes are considered Passive Hardeners and get the 5% Bonus.
OmegaMahn
Guild of Independent Pilots
DammFam
#4 - 2012-04-19 18:01:51 UTC  |  Edited by: OmegaMahn
Alara - thank you. I thought that to be the case (but you know how EVE can be sometimes), so- I wanted to be totally sure before training level 5 in all 4 damage types
BTW - anyone care to discuss the math of that 5% bonus per level and how it is applied to one's armor resistances (?) - for example if you had a ship with a natural 50% resist in thremic and you added the thermic Armor compensation skil at level 4 ?
Salo Aldeland
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2012-04-19 18:06:43 UTC
Follow up question: Do adaptive plating and membranes get the 5% bonus, or just the specific damage type versions?
Alara IonStorm
#6 - 2012-04-19 18:28:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
OmegaMahn wrote:

BTW - anyone care to discuss the math of that 5% bonus per level and how it is applied to one's armor resistances (?)

A Thermic Membrain gives you 37.5%. A 25% increase is 46.875% while at level 4 a 20% Increase will equal 45%. Just take the % the plate or membrain gives you and times it by 1.25 to get the value with the bonus or 1.20 at lvl 4 and 1.15 at 3 and so on.

Salo Aldeland wrote:
Follow up question: Do adaptive plating and membranes get the 5% bonus, or just the specific damage type versions?

They do get the bonus to all four damage types. The only module that gives you armor resists and doesn't get the bonus is the Damage Control Module.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#7 - 2012-04-19 19:13:11 UTC
OmegaMahn wrote:
Alara - thank you. I thought that to be the case (but you know how EVE can be sometimes), so- I wanted to be totally sure before training level 5 in all 4 damage types
BTW - anyone care to discuss the math of that 5% bonus per level and how it is applied to one's armor resistances (?) - for example if you had a ship with a natural 50% resist in thremic and you added the thermic Armor compensation skil at level 4 ?

They are affected by diminishing returns. the higher your resist the less effective the resistance boost is. I do not know the actual calculation formula but rule of thumb is more than 3 modules affecting the same resist is a waste. Two is optimal.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#8 - 2012-04-19 19:34:59 UTC
OmegaMahn wrote:
BTW - anyone care to discuss the math of that 5% bonus per level and how it is applied to one's armor resistances (?) - for example if you had a ship with a natural 50% resist in thremic and you added the thermic Armor compensation skil at level 4 ?


Just to clarify, simply training the skill will do absolutely nothing for you. In Alara's example, the unskilled thermic membrane would give you a (1-.5) * .375 + .5 = 68.75% thermic resist. A max skilled thermic membrane would give you a (1-.5) * (.375*1.25)+.5 = 73.4375% thermic resist. At comp 4, you would get a (1-.5) * (.375*1.2)+.5 = 72.5% thermic resist.

If you want to go crazy, we can calculate the improvement you get from going from 4 to 5 thusly: (73.4375-72.5)/(100-72.5) = 3.4% less thermal damage getting through.

That's all before stacking penalties, of course.
axxeessee
Trade and Supplies Co.
#9 - 2012-04-19 20:27:22 UTC
Im not a math guy, but unless you plan to always fly some expensive T3s with guardian support, id highly suggest training all of the armor comp skills at 4, and explosive at 5. The difference is very very very minimal.
Lord Dravius
Doomheim
#10 - 2012-04-19 21:21:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Dravius
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
OmegaMahn wrote:
Alara - thank you. I thought that to be the case (but you know how EVE can be sometimes), so- I wanted to be totally sure before training level 5 in all 4 damage types
BTW - anyone care to discuss the math of that 5% bonus per level and how it is applied to one's armor resistances (?) - for example if you had a ship with a natural 50% resist in thremic and you added the thermic Armor compensation skil at level 4 ?

They are affected by diminishing returns. the higher your resist the less effective the resistance boost is. I do not know the actual calculation formula but rule of thumb is more than 3 modules affecting the same resist is a waste. Two is optimal.

It's been a long time since I quit so my memory is fuzzy, but I'm pretty sure it's a percent of the difference between your current resistance and 100% So for example if you had one item that gave you 50% resistance and added another it would give you another 25. The difference between what you already had and 100 is 50 so it would be 50% of 50. Like I said I could be remembering this completely wrong, but that's how I think I remember it.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#11 - 2012-04-19 22:58:34 UTC
Lord Dravius wrote:
It's been a long time since I quit so my memory is fuzzy, but I'm pretty sure it's a percent of the difference between your current resistance and 100% So for example if you had one item that gave you 50% resistance and added another it would give you another 25. The difference between what you already had and 100 is 50 so it would be 50% of 50. Like I said I could be remembering this completely wrong, but that's how I think I remember it.


That's correct. My math might have been more demonstrative if we had started with a resist other than 50%, so for argument's sake let's redo it assuming a base 30%.

1-.3 gives you your resist hole: 70%. This is the portion that gets modified by modules etc. So a 37.5% base membrane would give you 37.5% of that 70%: .7*.375 = .2625. That portion then gets added to your base: .3+.2625 = .5625 or a 56.25% resist.

The comp skills improve the effectiveness of the hardener, not the resist itself. So a 37.5% hardener becomes a (.375*1.25) 46.875% hardener at comp 5 or (.375*1.2) 45% hardener at comp 4.

So at comp 4, your final resist is .7*.45 + .3 = .615 or 61.5%. At comp 5, you get .7*.46875 + .3 = .628125 or 62.8125%.

All of this is stacking penalized, but that only comes in when you have multiple modules that affect the same attribute. If you want that math too... well, let me know and I might be able to post it later.
OmegaMahn
Guild of Independent Pilots
DammFam
#12 - 2012-04-20 16:27:41 UTC
OK - thank you all BUT here is another question:
In the fitting windo (in game) when I drop an EM or Thermic Energized membrane II into a low slot not only to the resists go up, the ship's HP increase (in that window)

BUT - when I drop a Kenetic or Explosive Energized membrane II into a low slot the HP remain the same ?
(mind you the resists for armor go up but not the HPs)
why would that be ?
If adding a engergized membrane for EM or Thermic increased your HP should it not do the same when you use a EXP & Kenetic energized membrane ?
Kaikka Carel
Ziea
#13 - 2012-04-21 09:04:38 UTC
^ In-game window shows your EHP(ressists included) taking into account your lowest ressist which is obvious EM/Therm. That's why when you plug your holes your EHP rises and when not then nothing happens. Use some fitting tools like EFT or PYFA for advanced stats.